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Thread: Amateur sailing canoe design

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    While it's obvious in retrospect, it just occurred to me that the main reason a lot of sailing canoes have yawl or ketch rigs is because it lets you use a double paddle while the sail is up on all points of sail. The trade off is that they cost more and don't sail as well to windward, it's something to ponder for a while. The una rig shouldn't conflict with double paddling close hauled or on a run, but it will get in the way of the paddle while reaching. For my windward-leeward oriented trips this is probably fine.

    Dgentry: Yeah, the lakes around here are really gusty and shifty around any island but are not too bad when the wind is running down the axis of the lake. They're consistent enough to windsurf on without too much pain.
    Thanks for the feedback on the yawl rig. I was hoping to hear better things about its upwind performance but I suppose that's the cost of gaining clear headroom for paddling at the center of buoyancy and lower center of effort.
    It's good to hear that SOF can handle high speeds.

    Arcb: My family cottage is a long creek, a short portage and a lock (ie second portage) from one of those lakes, so that has been biasing my view of the canal. It's a nice short half day trip out to Jones Falls by canoe.
    I will admit that the sailing biased design will not be as good in most of Algonquin because of how much portaging there is. It will take careful route planning to make the sailing design shine there. The Algonquin goal is mostly that it's possible, so that I can combine my love of sailing with my love of exploring the park by boat even if it would make more sense to just take a canoe. For that to be enjoyable the portaging and paddling experience just needs to beat the one time I rented the lowest tier of aluminum canoe and it didn't even come with a yoke although it would be nice if I'm not too far off the pace in a group.
    The auxiliary sail idea is a great one that I'm going to try out this summer, but it's a solved problem where my best bet is to buy something that has had a lot of development hours. It doesn't do much to satisfy my boat cravings in late winter the way that designing and thinking about something novel does.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    It sounds like I'll have to experiment with that kind of rig on one of our kayaks or the solo canoe this summer. I can experiment with that kind of sailing in few months without having to build anything. Thanks for the suggestion, that looks like a lot of fun.

    I agree with all of your thoughts, except that I think a well designed boat will be able to make better vmg to windward by sailing than by paddling. The struggle is to keep as many of the other virtues as possible while adding enough righting moment and sail area to make decent upwind vmg. It helps that most of my trips end up closer to the Kingston side of the canal where it's more linked lakes and less canal than near Ottawa so I've got more room to tack.
    For experimenting it doesnít need to be fantastic, I got mine sailing from junk lying about. Wish bone boom from a Proa, sail and board from an IC etc. I just built a simple frame that everything fixed to.

    698F7CBE-6CE4-483D-A4DC-434DD547F425.jpg

    The Amas where just PVC pipe in the end but if if you have clean air outriggers are much less important

    You learn a lot experimenting, even if you just figure out that you want to keep the canoe for canoeing (I have a sailing dinghy also so that bas is covered)

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I have done a bunch of experimenting on workable sailing solutions for the Rideau Canal, it is a tricky place to sail and you do need a specialized solution if you dont want to be trapped by 40 something locks, the dozen or so fixed height 22 ft bridges and fluky winds.

    My Sharpie (with outboard) and my Kayak are my best experiments so far. I tried a beach cat, it was good in the fluky wind, but the 27 ft stayed mast was problematic, plus paddling a beach cat sucks. I have a nail and glue nesting PDRacer my son and I built in the basement over a winter. It works okay, because I can nest it in the back of my van and take it day sailing for a day from a lock station or beach. I have 6 and a half foot oars on the PDRacer so I dont get stranded by the wind.

    I did an experiment with a very rudimentary 14 ft sailing canoe. It cost me nothing to put together. I just used an old 14 ft Coleman canoe I had kicking around and used the sail rig and dagger board I had off a Walker Bay 8 in my garage, I put it together in my front yard. The boat worked okay in light wind, it would even sail up wind, very slowly. I took the boat out on vacation with me to Cape Breton too, as it was the easiest boat I had to car top at the time. I ended up disassembling that boat because I came up with better solutions, but I did learn a lot from the experiment. I ended up using the WB sail rig on my PDRacer, which worked out pretty well. I would imagine you could build something similar as a prototype, before diving into your final project.

    Here are pics of my experiment, both pics are taken on the Rideau Canal.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    On another note, does anyone know where to source weird carbon fibre spars? I assume I'll do the prototyping with wood or aluminum spars but once I settle on something that works I'd really like the final rig to be carbon, it makes a huge difference in ease of sailing. For spars like this could I go with pulltruded carbon and a layer of woven cloth on top for torsional stiffness?

    I could probably use my windsurf board for prototyping, its 12" by 28" and already has a centreboard and a sailing oriented shape. It's a matter figuring out how to test out a sliding seat, rudder and lug rig on it with no holes into the board. Some sort of carriage that clamps on or something, I'll post an image when I figure something out.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Have a look at Meage Gougeon's "Voyageur" hull form, and his earlier version, "Woodwind." I believe Woodwind was ~15 feet, a transomed canoe hull, meant to sail and paddle. He entered t in an Everglades Challenge but dropped, I believe, in this model, perhaps because an old man trying to sail a canoe as a monohull for 300 miles was a bit tough (would be tough for a young man). I am not sure if he modified this hull for the double-outrigger mode, or if he designed Voyageur (~17 feet) for that purpose, but in any event, if was quite a successful canoe (Gougeon finished two ECs, and the felow who inherited or borrowed the boat finished at least one in it.

    I know you do not want to go the outrigger route, but perhaps the hull form as-is (for either of these two canoes) would be OK as a pure sailing canoe; the widened hull at the stern would add some stability for a sane rig. -- Wade

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Wealth of information here if you haven’t seen it

    https://www.bootsbaugarage.ch/bufflehead_en.htm

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    wtarzia: That Gougeon boat is really cool, I've tried to find information on it before and didn't find much. Do you know where to look for more details?

    tink: I've read all of that site, its really good.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    wtarzia: That Gougeon boat is really cool, I've tried to find information on it before and didn't find much. Do you know where to look for more details?
    There is a thread on here but information is scant

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    This is a more paddling optimised design, and a folder on top but maybe it offers you some ideas.


  10. #45
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Rumers
    I like the rig and very beautifully crafted but a ridiculous complex design. He is struggling at times that must take an hour plus to build, loose on piece and you are stuffed.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    You are right and I do not recommend doing the same. But the rig is a good solution for striking underway. I also like the leeboard mounted wheels.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    www.sassdesign.net
    I'm not lost, I'm just uncertain of my position.
    I'm still confused, but on a higher level

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I have just updated a previous thread on Elderly Care/ Voyager.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...30#post5837230

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Strange how this did not show up under "new posts".

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    This design by BandB is an interesting design. I personally wouldnt want amas for the Rideau, but if Lake sailing is the goal, there should be no problem. Lots of good data points. Main hull is 26 iinches, sail area 50 something square feet.

    http://bandbyachtdesigns.com/expeditioncanoe/

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    If I remember the thread correctly that B&B boat started out being really close to what I want then the design shifted to the trimaran arrangement since its more suitable for dealing with the exhaustion from not stopping during an everglades challenge. I agree that it's not ideal for the Rideau since it puts the overall weight beyond what can be reasonably portaged with gear in two trips and it's a bit wide for fitting in the creeks.

    The hull shape for voyageur/elderly care looks like what I'm looking for, I just want to change the rest to suit a young guy who likes overpowered boats and is planning on sleeping on shore. I'll keep an eye on that thread and hope more information keeps getting dug up. It looks like a great boat.

    The rig on the Sass design looks like it's more optimized for day sailing in calmer/more consistent wind. Inside those parameters it looks well balanced and the rig does its own windward heel when running. It also leaves room to paddle and sail at the same time, with the rig continuing to have the best efficiency with the hull flat for easier paddling. However it doesn't look like there is an easy way to strike the rig underway and managing two sheets plus the tiller in gusty conditions looks like it would be a real challenge. I suppose those are the compromises. I do like the hull shape and it's right around the right length, if given some more righting moment that hull shape could really shine.

    While I'm talking about rigs, I don't think that jib only rigs make much sense. You lose the ability to have lots of depowering options that mast bend gives you and you lose the easy twist control across all apparent wind angles that a boomvang gives you. I think that if you're going boomless then the Hobie AI rig makes a lot of sense since it has a carbon mast and easy furling. The AI rig does not have twist control off the wind unless you add some sort of traveler system though, and that only works if you're going multihull to get the required traveler width.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
    This design by BandB is an interesting design. I personally wouldnt want amas for the Rideau, but if Lake sailing is the goal, there should be no problem. Lots of good data points. Main hull is 26 iinches, sail area 50 something square feet.

    http://bandbyachtdesigns.com/expeditioncanoe/
    The unfortunate thing is IMHO where you want the extra stability is in the unstable wind of canals and rivers, on a lake less important. The Akas my 12’ 30” telescoped in with the release of one cleat, quickly halfing the beam. Usually taking the Aka onto one side so I could go alongside a jetty

    not sure anyone has mentioned Triak with narrow outriggers we back out of the way of paddling.

    https://youtu.be/DCwRQGwZhjk

    I do think they missed a trick with that rear beam, full width traveller could easily be incorporated, and don’t get me stated on Ljungstrom rigs

    I think a morphological study would be interesting, might do that for my own entertainment tonight - yes I live on the edge.
    Last edited by tink; 03-13-2019 at 02:05 AM.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    The unfortunate thing is IMHO where you want the extra stability is in the unstable wind of canals and rivers, on a lake less important. The Akas my 12’ 30” telescoped in with the release of one cleat, quickly halfing the beam. Usually taking the Aka onto one side so I could go alongside a jetty
    .
    My hesitation with Amas on the Rideau has to do with the locks themselves. There are 47 Locks over 125 miles. I am thinking any system incorporating amas would have to be quick, the amas would have to be easily retractable from the cockpit, and tough enough to deal with the bump and grind of passing through 170 year old stone locks.

    To complicate matters, canal regulatiins prohibit masts from being stepped in the locks.
    Last edited by Arcb; 03-13-2019 at 07:54 AM.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I sail my Viola 14 canoe a lot on canals here in the Netherlands. When tacking upwind some stability will be appreciated. Obviously this will mean less performance under paddle power. Hiking racks or a hiking plank may work well on longer tacks (lakes), but when short tacking (canals) and having to make repetitive tacks perhaps not so much. Outriggers get in the way when having to go through locks.

    One mast makes sense if wanting to easily strike the rig on the water. If the masts are in the ends, you may simply not be able to reach them. One alternative, as offered by Dave Gentry's design, is to keep the masts short enough as to clear any (or most) bridges when the sails ared down. The lug yawl rig also nicely opens the cockpit for paddle sailing in light conditions.

    I think that a bit wider boat would make sense. Study the aforementioned Artemis hull, for example, more closely. At 31 inches wide it is a nice compromise if wanting a boat that both sails and paddles reasonably well.

    Just my thoughts based on my experience.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I've found that at least with normal canoes it's easier, faster, and cheaper to portage around the locks. That may change when the rig complexity and weight are added but the weight goals in the OP are there to try to keep it that way. I have a hard time imagining abusing small boats in locks like that. That's also why I'm worried about outrigger weight, I need to portage into the Rideau system from a lake that is not part of the canal. The outrigger width would also be an issue in the creek leading to the canal.

    I suppose that if I'm sitting higher compared to the gunwhale then I can afford to widen the boat an inch or two without screwing up the double paddle ergonomics. I'm still worried about what that will do to paddling efficiency though. I'll go play with that in Freeship tonight and see how much difference that makes in metacentric height and what Michlet thinks of the drag.

    The ability to strike the rig is mostly to be able to approach known shallow/rocky areas under paddle power to avoid hitting something and damaging the boat as well as to enter shallow creeks without having to find somewhere on the shore suitable for striking the rig. I'm more worried about centerboard depth than rig height but rigs up without boards down are hard to control. I think for my purposes the single rig makes the most sense. I want good sailing efficiency and easy to strike, and that's worth giving up the double paddle and sail light wind mode to me.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I wonder if you could design something that isn't totally reliant on boards? Due to farm run off, most of the Rideau Canal (aka Weedeau Canal) is unsailable outside of the marked channel. The weeds come right to the surface with the exception of the few larger lakes.

    Maybe chine runners? My Sharpie will sail up to about a reach with no boards down. That let's me take some shortcuts outside of the channel. My Kayak will make ground to weather using just the V hull and retractable skeg and good sail shape. A Hobie 16 has no board what so ever, they're entirely reliant on hull shape and a well designed rig.
    Last edited by Arcb; 03-13-2019 at 11:17 AM.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I played around with hull shapes over lunch. Widening the beam from 28" to 29.5" increases the metacentric height by about 10% with negligible increase in drag. I think that's about the widest I can stretch it without seriously compromising double paddle ergonomics. The difference between 15'8" and 17' is negligible below 4.75 knots, then grows to make the 17' boat 0.3 knots faster above 6 knots (about 5%). I only ran the drag comparison to 8 knots because going farther probably requires adding trim changes to the modeling and I'm not sure how well Michlet handles planing. I'm kind of torn on whether the extra weight is worth the extra speed. I'd appreciate any input on how accurate Michlet is above hull speed and if the speed difference will be larger than predicted. I added the drag comparison here
    DragComparison.jpg

    I think the only way to manage no boards in this kind of package is to use deep V outriggers shaped like Hobie 16 hulls. If I was going to use outriggers I'd probably go that way. As it is, I think I'll just paddle through the super weedy sections or mostly but not completely retract the centerboard so that it more or less sheds the weeds. The weeds are also the reason all of my designs have had raked stems, I'd prefer not to catch weeds on the bow in paddling mode.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Last year one of the reservoirs that I sail my single leeboarded canoe on dropped it’s water level significantly. I would sail over rather shallow areas 8”-12” with by board partially down and the rudder kicked up to. I could still make my way to wind but as the CLR changed position and area, the helm pressure would increase. As the shallow areas were not large, it was not a big deal and nice to not have to breakout the paddle.

    If you go the ama route, look into amas with asymmetrical hull shapes. They produce lift, acting as foils. A Polynesian technique.
    Last edited by Matt young; 03-13-2019 at 04:56 PM.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
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  24. #59
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    29 inches seems pretty beamy for a double paddle. I paddle with a guy that has a big 22 ft tandem toruring kayak, but even the beam on that beast is only 26 inches.

    But, I have some ideas. If you go with a fully decked design, you could go with really minimal freeboard and give the deck lots of camber. The deck camber combined with a slightly long paddle should allow for a fairly ergonomic paddling stroke. Put in a bulkhead and you have watertight compartments. Add a deck hatch or two for dry storage for your camping gear. You should have no trouble doing the whole canal in about 5 days with a set up like that.

    I am picturing kayak style seating with foot pedal steering. However, if you want to get out on the combing and hike, that won't work. In that case I have seen small tri set ups where the tiller is short with a T on the end. Attached to the outboard side of the T is a tiller extension. When sitting facing forward the tiller is controlled over the shoulder or under the arm, a bit like a beach cat tiller, but when you want to get out on the combing and hike, its more or less just a regular dinghy tiller.
    Last edited by Arcb; 03-13-2019 at 04:50 PM.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I'm currently paddling a Bell Bucktail DY solo canoe which has a 29" beam and a River Runner R5 kayak which I believe has a 28" beam. I paddle both with a double paddle. The solo canoe is the widest I can imagine a double paddle boat working. Both are easy to push to hull speed and quite maneuverable, although a little extra length would be nice which is why I'm (slowly) building a GA Arrow 14. Both those boats feel faster and much more maneuverable than the plastic kayaks I demoed that were longer and narrower but had a hard chined V bottom. The narrower boats I demoed also felt like they had more initial stability, again despite being narrower.
    f_1147u_1.1.jpg
    47880464_614.jpg

    Right now the plan is to have a fully decked layout very similar to International 10sqm canoes, except with a sliding seat no wider than the hull to double as a paddling seat when centered.
    yandy100465.jpg
    I'll probably put a hatch sized to fit a ~65 liter dry pack like the SealLine Boundary pack between the mast and the centerboard case, which only requires 9"-10" of hull depth and I can taper to less aft of that. If a hatch there compromises the structure too much and adds too much weight then I'll drop the hull height and tie it down on the deck like you would on a SUP.
    I'm really hoping to get away with not using the rudder or just using it as a skeg in paddle mode. That lets me use a standard tiller and extension to avoid complicated and mushy steering arrangements. All I need to do to use the rudder as a skeg is a line to keep the tiller centered and a line to control rudder immersion. I'm not a fan of using rudders in paddling boats since I'm so used to steering by adjusting my stroke.
    Last edited by paddlesail; 03-13-2019 at 06:51 PM. Reason: Pictures

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    No problem with not using a rudder in paddle mode on a boat like this. I dont even use a rudder on my kayak in sailing mode, I just use my retractable skeg for steerng. I balance my sail with the skeg down %50. To turn I either raise or lower the skeg which moves the CLR either for or aft and effectively steers the boat. If I need more turning power, I edge the boat with my hips. I only need paddle assisted steering for tacking. Its a pretty cool way to steer. Lets me put the paddle down and day dream while the wind does all the work. I can steer the boat up to about 5 knots sailing speed on all points of sail by just fine tuning the CLR.

    Are you thinking about doing the EC with this boat? Your design specs seem to be a pretty close mirror to the specs for a small class 3 EC boat.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I am thinking about doing the EC with this boat but I'm deliberately trying to avoid compromises that only help in the EC. The design philosophy is "what if the EC happened in Ontario". It means I'm designing for a lower displacement since I don't have to carry more than a bottle or two of freshwater, a lower total boat weight since I need to portage over rough terrain, and a more active sailing style since I'm not going to be pushing the edge of exhaustion as much as you would in the EC. It is very much inspired by some of the more clever EC boats.

    I agree completely with your thoughts on rudders while paddling, skegs or hollow ends make the most sense.

    Is there a good light way to retract a GIS style cassette rudder with a line attached to the tiller? I'm wondering if retracting the rudder vertically instead of swinging up might be worth the trouble when using it as a skeg but I don't think my hull will have enough buoyancy at the transom for me to get all the way aft. My only thought is a small tower attached to the rudder box but that seems heavy/fragile. Standard swing up rudder probably makes more sense.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    You need to check out Dr. Smoot's trimarans. He has quick retraction amas and a quick retraction mast.
    The ideas might work with some adjustment.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8kUq4BouS0

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
    My hesitation with Amas on the Rideau has to do with the locks themselves. There are 47 Locks over 125 miles. I am thinking any system incorporating amas would have to be quick, the amas would have to be easily retractable from the cockpit, and tough enough to deal with the bump and grind of passing through 170 year old stone locks.

    To complicate matters, canal regulatiins prohibit masts from being stepped in the locks.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    If by "planing" you mean a boat being predominately supported by hydrodynamic lift then Michlet does not "handle" planing. It does absolutely nothing to calculate hydrodynamic lift from planing but canoes of the type in this thread are unlikely to plane. Michlet does not determine sinkage and trim but it does calculate the wave resistance based on the user specified "sinkage and trim".

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    I'm currently paddling a Bell Bucktail DY solo canoe which has a 29" beam and a River Runner R5 kayak which I believe has a 28" beam. I paddle both with a double paddle. The solo canoe is the widest I can imagine a double paddle boat working. Both are easy to push to hull speed and quite maneuverable, although a little extra length would be nice which is why I'm (slowly) building a GA Arrow 14. Both those boats feel faster and much more maneuverable than the plastic kayaks I demoed that were longer and narrower but had a hard chined V bottom. The narrower boats I demoed also felt like they had more initial stability, again despite being narrower.
    f_1147u_1.1.jpg
    47880464_614.jpg

    Right now the plan is to have a fully decked layout very similar to International 10sqm canoes, except with a sliding seat no wider than the hull to double as a paddling seat when centered.
    yandy100465.jpg
    I'll probably put a hatch sized to fit a ~65 liter dry pack like the SealLine Boundary pack between the mast and the centerboard case, which only requires 9"-10" of hull depth and I can taper to less aft of that. If a hatch there compromises the structure too much and adds too much weight then I'll drop the hull height and tie it down on the deck like you would on a SUP.
    I'm really hoping to get away with not using the rudder or just using it as a skeg in paddle mode. That lets me use a standard tiller and extension to avoid complicated and mushy steering arrangements. All I need to do to use the rudder as a skeg is a line to keep the tiller centered and a line to control rudder immersion. I'm not a fan of using rudders in paddling boats since I'm so used to steering by adjusting my stroke.
    Sitting on top of the seat on the deck is going to put the center of gravity very high and with a mast up even more so. Traditional sailing canoes all work because the sailor is very low down. Sitting on a plank across the gunwales of your open canoe will give you the feel of the stability.

    ICs are very horrible to sail in light winds as you quite simply have no where to sit. They have low booms, you could have a higher boom but that would raise CE and further reduce stability.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    You need to check out Dr. Smoot's trimarans. He has quick retraction amas and a quick retraction mast.
    The ideas might work with some adjustment.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8kUq4BouS0
    Very cool. My kayak rig works the same way. Dyneema forestay run through a block on the bow. Just give it a yank, up comes the mast, cleat it off, and away you go.

    Paddlesail: I rented an R5 to do the Algonquin Petawawa trip about 20 years ago. It was a fun boat. It paddled pretty well and did accelerate nicely. But, there are a few buts. You have to be on the R5 constantly to keep it tracking. There is no way, given equal paddlers that an R5 could keep up with a V hulled sea kayak over the long haul. 200 yard sprint, yes, but the exta work to keep her tracking would burn you out over time, tortoise and the hare. Plus, even for just a 3 day jaunt, I needed my freinds in canoes to carry most of my gear.
    Last edited by Arcb; 03-13-2019 at 09:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Dr. Smoots trimarans are really interesting. The design is amazing for day sailing with almost no setup time. Some of his rig ideas are really good. I need to think a little more about the rig from that video, it looks like it might solve my problems better than the balanced lug. I bet you could even set things up to drop the mast diagonally so it sits beside the paddling position when dropped.

    Thanks for the feedback on Michlet, I might have to play with sinkage and trim sometime and see how that affects the output. All of the modelling I've done so far becomes a simple polynomial past about 8 knots. I'm not sure how realistic that is especially because the different hull shapes I've tried always follow the same curve above 8 knots, just offset based on their 0-6 knot performance.

    Sitting on top of the deck will affect stability, but I should still be below the metacentric height. The gunwhales will be really low and the stability should be pretty similar to a SUP. I expect that paddling this in waves wouldn't be much fun, but who wants to paddle when there's enough wind to create big waves? That's the best time to be sailing!

    ICs are actually amazing to sail in light wind because you can use the seat to leeward to counterbalance you weight and let you sit comfortably to windward with a good view of the sails. There's never a reason to sit in awkward positions on the centerline. It helps that they're so overpowered and efficient that they sail fairly fast in light wind too. I can't imagine anything being nicer to sail when the wind is light. The low boom isn't an issue because it is so short that you can go behind it when tacking or gybing.

    On the R5: It doesn't have any load carrying capacity and you can't just let it glide but as long as you keep paddling it doesn't take much effort to keep it straight. I do think the solo canoe with slightly more tracking does paddle better. I expect that you might be right about the sea kayak in larger bodies of water but I think you'd lose more in the extra steering effort in the creeks than you'd gain with reduced effort from tracking in the open. I'm open to being wrong on that though. I'm probably biased from growing up paddling the R5 since before I can remember.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post

    ICs are actually amazing to sail in light wind because you can use the seat to leeward to counterbalance you weight and let you sit comfortably to windward with a good view of the sails. There's never a reason to sit in awkward positions on the centerline. It helps that they're so overpowered and efficient that they sail fairly fast in light wind too. I can't imagine anything being nicer to sail when the wind is light. The low boom isn't an issue because it is so short that you can go behind it when tacking or gybing.
    The light winds here must be much lighter than your light winds, for many years I sailed an IC at a club with a good fleet including the then national champion we never found a way to be remotely comfortable. I have been considering getting another one by the pain of the light winds is still raw.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Just done the maths, with the maximum weight of seat extended to leeward but the windward edge of the seat vertically above the gunwale so to have somewhere to sit the seat provides enough capsizing moment to allow the sailors’s centre of gravity to move 4 inches to windward.

    Not why I have done that but I have suffered many hours an light wind IC sailing

    Completely awesome boats when it is windy it must be said

  35. #70
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    Mar 2019
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Fair enough, you have a lot more experience on them and you did the math. I think the difference in our light wind experiences might be because I was sailing a Nethercott that probably had an overweight seat and had the old style carriage that stops the seat at the gunwhale instead of the centerline. If those factors give another 2" or so to windward plus an inch ot two from sail torque that would explain it. I guess that one day I borrowed it in light wind doesn't represent all ICs.

    Looking at Frank Smoots E-Z-Up sail setup gave me ideas. I could use a Byte CII mast with a roachy triangular dacron sail with battens radiating out from the tack. That gives me a pre-engineered carbon mast designed for slightly less righting moment but slightly more sail. I am a little worried that the radial battens won't give enough draft stability to use cunningham for depowering as the mast is designed to do. The main problem becomes what to do with all of it when it comes down because I don't want it over my head on the centerline. I'm thinking that if I angle the track on the raising bit it will drop the rig diagonally. Since that's not quite enough to clear the paddling position without completely unbalancing the boat, I could then have the mast step be a U-joint attached to a swing arm to move the mast step a foot outboard once the mast is down.
    The process to lift the mast would be: Swing mast step into wedges on centerline and lock with a line. Pull mast raising line. Set up boomvang. Sail.
    Lowering the mast: Disconnect vang. Lower mast with mast raising line. Swing mast step outboard. Paddle.

    Here is a quick and dirty sketch of what I'm thinking about that I made over lunchbreak:
    RadialBattenSail.jpg
    and a sketch of what it looks like on the boat:
    RadialBattenSail3d.PNG

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