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Thread: Amateur sailing canoe design

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    H
    Obviously down wind you’re not on the end of the seat but chicken reaching, legs bent, feet on the gunwale. Canoes of the time had a line that with a single pull pulled the seat back. The sailor would have to take his weight off the seat and adjust legs as the seat moved backwards. On a reach you needed to choose the position at the start of the reach, more off wind and you can adjust on that leg. It is a very effective design.

    look at this video, look at how far the rails of the DC canoes come back, another reason for wide sterns, and compare with the green boat that nose dives. One of the guys from my tale above is in this great video - I have few regrets - selling my IC is one

    https://vrsport.tv/vr-media/internat...017-final-day/
    Thank you for the clarification and the video. Very cool athletic boats.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost Engelen View Post
    cool athletic boats.
    without discrediting the guys that sail them once you have the technique sorted they are probably less athletic than a modern Skiff type boat. Many guys are 60 plus even 70 years old, clearly fit for their age. It is only when it all goes wrong again and again that it becomes hard work. I think it is one of the things paddlesail has spot on. Completely decked over, dagger board is low in the water when capsized so easy to right, low freeboard so easy to get back on and then zero bailing. I remember capsizing a regular dinghy after years of IC sailing and being flabbergasted at how hard the regular dinghy was through all aspects of righting and recovery. Can’t think of a better boat to recover than the IC.

    Somewhere I have an article by Steve Clark. I paraphrase but an IC is a great cruising boat because all you are doing is sailing (as opposed to racing) so it has to be the most fun boat.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I started canoe sailing with a fixed seat. I quickly realized that this didn’t work for me. And switched to an independent seat, similar to what Horton uses on the buffleheads and our European friends on this thread. Being able to shift my weight for and aft is very helpful. When running I move pretty far aft. When beating in medium to light wind I am in the seat about midship. When beating in medium-heavy wind I am sitting on my side deck. Always in the same spot about midship. I have never felt the need to get farther out than the side deck, plenty of force applied there up to 25 knot winds. That is were I get the canoe into its best grove for sure. But my beam is 34”.

    Anymore when it’s time to paddle in no wind conditions, I prefer to standup paddle. I really enjoy standing up for a change stretching the legs and getting a different perspective. Also it feels great having my feet in the bottom of the canoe below the waterline. Super stable.

    I have stoped using starage bags mostly, found them a bit anoyying to access. I have switched to a plastic amo case. Strapped down through external loops, aka also bouancy. Very easy to open, while remaining attached. And much easier to get to all the stuff.

    I have a 46 square foot lug sail. I agree with the positive comments above about this type of rig. They do go to wind if properly build and rigged. Can move my canoe in the slightest whisper of wind. And I have carried it into the high 20s knot winds fully up. Although reefing is better, I have 1 deep reef that is much better in these high winds. It is very easy to raise and lower. Lower in a second if wanted. My favorite experience with this.. I was running down wind full sail in the 25 knot range steep lake chop, surfing the waves for a few seconds, leeboard up. Holding on tight to the sheet as the powerful lug can really pull in this situation. Running for a protected cove. Caught a nice surf into the coven as the shallower water pitched the chop up. The water flattened out, I dropped the leeboard down, spun a fast 180, popped the halyard the sail came right down all by itself, casually pulled the single paddle off the foredeck and easily paddled over to shore and tied up. I already liked them but after that moment. But after this I was in love with a long leeboard and all it’s attributes, it’s abilty to adjust your CLR. And the lug rig for its power and easy of raising/lowering.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I settled on 65L because I can fit gear plus food for 2-3 days in a 40L pack depending on if I'm using real food or freeze dried. I can also comfortably fit gear plus food for 5 days in 85L with real food. I figure that 65L is pretty reasonable for most trips if I use freeze-dried for the long ones. It's also the thickest pack that would fit into a deck hatch without designing in more freeboard which costs even more weight. The next size up of waterproof canoe packs is 115L and 18.5"x30"x12.5".
    I'm planning to use a properly waterproof pack, I've been using dimensions from this one: https://www.seallinegear.com/packs-duffles/boundary-pack


    I am not planning to design in the displacement for salt water trips where you have to carry potable water. I will boil or filter the fresh water underneath me for hydration and cooking.
    I also hate drysuits, I usually wear an insulated rain coat and shorts when it's cold. I don't get cold easily and I won't be using this boat for sailing when there are hypothermia risks.
    I also don't usually bring electronics on trips, lakes are distinctive enough that navigating by map is easily done and any areas with cell service also have lots of people around.

    I'll look into gear lists tomorrow to see what safety gear the raids are requiring.

    For scale here is what one of the dropped deck designs with the pack lashed on top looks like with both the 65L and 115L packs. I think the hatch might not work because it wants to be near the center of buoyancy which will be where I want to step and might have the centreboard trunk in the way.
    HullAndPackCrossSection.jpg

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I like where your whole design is going and your design thoughts. The old adage you fill the space you have comes to mind. I am always perplexed with how much stuff dinghy cruisers seam to ‘need’. If you went hiking you could fit 4 or 5 days of kit in a 65ltr pack, why because you have a boat make it more? Yes it won’t be luxurious but modern kit is so good it won’t be too rough. Where do you plan to place the pack fore and aft? To me forward of the seat is where the board needs to be and you step to access mast etc. Very far back would be my choice, got to work around the rudder but a case for more real estate aft.

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Slightly off topic but this is Karl Kruger first SUP to finish the race to Alaska, the point bing it shows his gear storage.

    DC6F48E3-7928-4E9B-914A-BE2D28926F06.jpg

    One of my favourite podcasts

    https://hookedonwoodenboats.com/howb...nisher-on-sup/

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    I settled on 65L because I can fit gear plus food for 2-3 days in a 40L pack depending on if I'm using real food or freeze dried. I can also comfortably fit gear plus food for 5 days in 85L with real food. I figure that 65L is pretty reasonable for most trips if I use freeze-dried for the long ones. It's also the thickest pack that would fit into a deck hatch without designing in more freeboard which costs even more weight. The next size up of waterproof canoe packs is 115L and 18.5"x30"x12.5".
    I'm planning to use a properly waterproof pack, I've been using dimensions from this one: https://www.seallinegear.com/packs-duffles/boundary-pack


    I am not planning to design in the displacement for salt water trips where you have to carry potable water. I will boil or filter the fresh water underneath me for hydration and cooking.
    I also hate drysuits, I usually wear an insulated rain coat and shorts when it's cold. I don't get cold easily and I won't be using this boat for sailing when there are hypothermia risks.
    I also don't usually bring electronics on trips, lakes are distinctive enough that navigating by map is easily done and any areas with cell service also have lots of people around.

    I'll look into gear lists tomorrow to see what safety gear the raids are requiring.

    For scale here is what one of the dropped deck designs with the pack lashed on top looks like with both the 65L and 115L packs. I think the hatch might not work because it wants to be near the center of buoyancy which will be where I want to step and might have the centreboard trunk in the way.
    HullAndPackCrossSection.jpg
    If you are sticking to fresh water and warm weather 65 litres should be plenty. It's when you have to add 3 gallons of drinking water to your kit that things get complicated.

    I also agree that electronics probably aren't much use for most daylight lake navigation.

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Deep left field warning.

    If I wanted to blast around at high speed in a paddle craft, a medium sized power kite might look attractive.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Paddlesail, I reviewed my gear list for the EC. Break down is:
    4x5 Litre dry bags for gear (tent, sleeping bag, spare clothes, stove)
    3x5 litre bags for food, all dehydrated.

    1 waterproof chart case for electronics and charts. Not sure of the volume. About 2 litres maybe?

    So, that works out to 37 litres.

    Plus 3 gallons of drinking water, but I don't think that applies to you. All you will need is a water filter and 1 or 2 nalgene bottles, or a life jacket with hydration bladder. They are pretty slick. Hands free hydration.

    Other stuff I cary, that likely doesn't apply to you, dry suit, which I wear. Too bad you don't like them, I love mine. Plus I have a submersible vhf and 406 plb I carry in pouches on my pfd.

    So, my guess is you could be well within your 65 liter limit.
    Last edited by Arcb; 03-21-2019 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Spelling

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I'm currently thinking about putting the pack in front of me because of weight and balance concerns. The mainsheet is going to limit carriage travel forward more than the boat width will aft so it will be easier to trim out the pack weight by moving body weight aft than forward. Doing pack forward also means that there isn't a pack limiting the aft travel of the carriage. Finally the boat should be pitched bow down slightly when more heavily loaded to keep the transom just kissing the surface and pack forward does that with less adjustment. If I use a centerboard and lash the pack to the deck this option isn't too inconvenient except when stepping the mast and it means that things in the pack are readily accessible.
    Pack aft does let me put it in a more convenient location in terms of deck space. If the rig is far enough forward to work out the balance issues by moving the seat carriage forward it becomes a good option.

    I think confidence that the boat is watertight is worth the slight loss in stability that comes from lashing the pack to the deck. I tend to prefer boats that are easy to screw up in and easy to fix rather than ones that are hard screw up and hard to fix.

    A 65L pack is adequate, I would prefer one in the 75L-85L range but everyone makes a 65L and a 115L except the one company that makes a 90L and gets horrible reviews. 65L is definitely big enough with reasonable food selection but I like to have room for steak on the first night kept cool with frozen chili for the second night. That kind of extravagant food packing is a little less doable in a 65L pack. However if I can pack like that in an 85L pack then a 65L shouldn't be a problem with more dense and dehydrated foods

    The R2A SUP shows that what I'm envisioning can work successfully. I'll have even better protection with a few inches more freeboard than he does too.

    I actually have used power kites from canoes. It doesn't work as well as you'd think it would. Once the kite is up it works quite nicely but launching the kite from the canoe without another boat for help doesn't really work. If you try drifting the kite out then launching when the kite lines are tight you'll never get enough tension to pull the kite off the water since the canoe drifts downwind every time you try to get the kite up. Flying the kite up could be done if you have thick gloves and no fear but holding onto the kite line without using the bar is a quick way to lose fingers and lose control of the kite. The only success I've had is holding the kite by the end of the bridles.

    On different topic, I'd appreciate any advice on how to add a deck to a hull in Freeship! without distorting what's already there. I can't seem to find a lock surface function or something similar and every time I try to add a deck it makes the next panel down non-developable.
    Last edited by paddlesail; 03-21-2019 at 04:48 PM. Reason: wording

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    "I actually have used power kites from canoes."
    I have experimented with an inflatable wing kite, the only one I found I could launch easily from the canoe as it already had it's shape and did not require gymnastics to get it airborne. Useful as an assist. I recommend a dump line though.

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Re: canal wind comments - I overlook a canal that I sail on, and have long noted something interesting is going on other than simply 1) turbulence from short fetch obstacles or 2) bending the wind lengthwise to canal path of least resistance. What is happening is known to glider pilots in cloud streets and observers of tornado formation - there is a 3D horizontal roll wind pattern (spiral) along the cool/hot edges of the canal.

    I will show diagrams in a moment, but first will propose actual consequences to sail rigs. Since the cooler canal is in a zone of sinking air, the wind is not just going lengthwise to the canal, but diverging out to either side a bit. This exasperates me when tacking upwind because it favors delaying the tack to milk the better track it permits, but due to edge obstacles you have to snuff your progress and turn and wallow in a worse track practically perpendicular to the canal initially.

    In the middle of canal you escape that divergence effect, but are roiled by crazy cats paws gusts in nonsensical directions. This even if the geography is low, because the downcurrents are flinging faster upper air down upon into the slower canal surface air. Bottom line favors a rig that is agile and efficient to tack. So if you wish, you can (safely) play chicken tacking near the canal edges or take advantage of favorable rogue gusts to tack earlier.

    My canal rig does the above nicely and just sucks itself upwind like a vacuum cleaner. What it does poorly is go downwind due to no boom, so something like a boom is recommended. BTW the canal in question is 80 degrees to the prevailing winds yet always blows lengthwise, and has looney cats paws blowing upwind or whatever.

    A spiral wind pattern is quite common and stable in nature, not only on a global scale but in the local scale of wind gradient between light surface and faster upper winds. Imagine the canal being under the sink zone of only the 2 central roll patterns immediately below. Then in the last picture visualize the canal in the sink zone between spiral pattern 2 and 3. Note the diverging "mean surface wind"



    Last edited by rudderless; 03-21-2019 at 08:56 PM.

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I used to sail in a narrow coastal river above the estuary and experimented with a crab claw (proa) rig because the widest part of the sail was above the banks mostly. Advantage in a canoe was no rudder needed, just a long shaft paddle and weight distribution. However I cannot say it was substantially any better than the balanced lug rig normally used. The present dipping lateen rig has not been tried, but it is a pretty low aspect rig by comparison.

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    Rigs with a little less control use leech tension to control mast bend which robs you of the ability to set the sail flat and twisted, but leaves the options of no twist with any camber and any twist with full camber. A reef in this type of boat costs you the ability to flatten the sail, but by that point you need the twist more so you don't lose anything of value. An example would be a laser.
    Rigs with a little less control than that use the outhaul for camber control in the foot of the sail but don't have any way of adjusting the camber in the head of the sail out on the water. They still have twist control. These usually have really small rigs or the ability to reef since reefing doesn't come with any performance drawbacks. Some examples would be the 420 and most cruising masthead keelboats.
    Finally some rigs have no twist or camber control such as boomless sails without a traveler. These sails really need reef points.

    I would really prefer to have some control of camber at the head. My worry with the lug rig is that it falls in the second last category and doesn't have control over the head camber but I've never examined one in person so I hope I'm wrong. It looks to me like most of the camber in the head of a lug rig must be controlled by broad seaming rather than luff curve, especially when the yard is relatively horizontal, which would mean that it can only be changed by a sailmaker. I suppose that if the head is cut flat enough then it won't matter too much. The lug does seem to be the most convenient for transitions.
    For those with lug experience: Can you flatten the top half of the sail while sailing by bending the yard? How long does it take to reef?

    The sail rolling around the mast rig with boomvang fits into the second category and is also under serious consideration. It can have control over mast bend by using the vang and is really easy to reef and furl. As Joost says, it would also be harder to drop the spar for less air drag and more stability when paddling. If the lug rig has the same amount of sail shape control I think I'd prefer the lug rig for the short spars and the ease of striking the mast to get under bridges and trees.

    The rig I've been toying with recently fits in the first or second category depending on how well the angled battens work out. If it has independentish control over camber and twist then it's probably worth the complicated and more difficult method of striking it and losing the ability to reef. If it doesn't then the lug rig or rolling around the mast rig are the better options. It all depends on if the radially angled battens can keep the camber from moving forwards when the cunningham (downhaul) is on tight so that it bends the mast instead of pulling sail cloth forwards.




    I'm not too worried about a 6ish sqm sail in blowy conditions because it's between the laser sail sizes and about the same size as my favourite windsurfing sail. I've had fun playing with lasers in over 30 knots and I'm planning on something smaller than the full rig sail. The windsurf sail starts launching me over the nose in the mid twenty knots, but it's the old style with deep camber and no twist.
    I have to admit I've never had a major problem with having too little high-wind twist in a Laser rig or a good version of an old-style windsurfer rig. When coaching it's very hard to get people to use enough vang and downhaul on the Laser and enough downhaul on old-style windsurfer rigs.

    This looks like pretty good standard Laser settings and good twist with a flat head;



    This is an old-style windsurfer rig in less than ideal fresh-wind trim; I can't find a good pic of proper heavy air trim. With lots more downhaul (7cm?) the head batten would be dead flat and twisted to leeward maybe 10 degrees from the boom.

    Windsurf-High-WInds.jpg

    As long as there's enough tension applied these rigs seem to depower up high and twist almost as well as more modern ones like modern Raceboard sails, cat rigs and skiff rigs. The aerodynamic drag seems higher, though, and the centre of effort moves aft more than with a modern rig in my experience. On the other hand, these older "pinheads" can be dramatically lighter than a modern fully battened rig or a lug.

    The International 12 guys have bendy yards that seem to allow them to flatten out their lug rigs pretty well. I haven't tried it myself because I've only sailed one once and in light winds. It was very easy to rig, too.

    I've been playing with ideas for a small cruising canoe, too. In my case I'm going to accept the loss of speed that comes with going as short as possible because one of its uses will be to sail on my tiny pond at home, where a Laser or Windsurfer LT (pictured) is too fast. I'm thinking of Swedish-style fold-out hiking seats and a second-hand "pinhead" Laser or windsurfer ketch rig for fun racing with a lug for cruising. I've got to get stuck into two other boats, including a Nethercott restoration, first.
    Last edited by Chris249; 03-22-2019 at 12:03 AM.

  15. #120
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Chris249: You're right that Laser rigs depower enough with just flattening up to about 35 knots or so, and above that things like the traveler fairleads start popping off anyways. What's missing is the ability to tune a little more camber and a little more twist for better acceleration in waves at the same amount of power. You're also right that this acceleration mode isn't needed if you can get the kinetics and steering through the waves right, but it really helps when you screw up. I'd be satisfied by a rig with as much tuning ability as a Laser. I think I'm just spoiled by sailing a 5o5 for a few years.
    I think my launching over the nose problems on the windsurfer come from not enough outhaul. The boom doesn't seem long enough to flatten the bottom half of the sail even with full outhaul despite the whole rig being original equipment for a Mistral Pandera, the top of the sail depowers quite nicely with downhaul.
    Thanks for suggesting that I look at the International 12 rig, I think I like the way that looks more than I like the balanced lugs since there is less mast interference on the sail shape. From what everyone has been showing me it seems like a fairly vertical and bendy yard will yield a rig with the properties I'm looking for. It even solves the reefing issues because the bendy part stays with the sail as you reef so you keep camber control when reefed. Is there a reason to prefer balanced lugs over the International 12 style standing lug?

    Rudderless: Wow, that makes me feel really stupid. I've been windsurfing in that wind pattern for years and didn't make the connection to why it was happening. It definitely favors agility and efficient tacking. Very few bodies of water are too far off the prevailing wind direction in my area because they were all shaped by the glaciers and run in roughly the same direction so the wind for the whole province gets bent to follow them. This means that the gusts are more visible ahead of time and come with only a 20ish degree direction change, and the direction change is mostly consistent. The gust shift is because the stronger wind in the gust doesn't get deflected as much by the shore.

    Skuthorp: I've only played with closed cell foil kites because they're more practical for year round use when the lakes are frozen for half the year. I bet the leading edge inflatables are easier to launch but I wouldn't want to be pumping one up in the middle of the lake in a canoe either. There is just too much setup time/effort to be practical for a trip that has lots of portages unless someone figures out some design magic.

  16. #121
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    See post 166 MIK empirically feels that the bad tack is actually the good tack

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...18#post5846918

  17. #122
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  18. #123
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I've gone camping a few times since the last post which allowed me to weigh my pack. I found I was packing lighter than I thought when I was deciding on displacement. The reduced displacement allowed a finer entrance angle down to 8.3 degrees and a flatter run aft while picking up stability, the beam is now 29".

    I've also thought long and hard about the rig suggestions. I've decided that a standing lug rig makes the most sense for me since I'm going to use a vang which negates the self vanging advantage of the balanced lug and the standing lug seems to be able to support a more vertical yard. I like the idea from Viola of using a windsurf mast for the yard and the boom with an aluminum mast. With an ~9' mast (8.5' yard and 7.5' boom) I can get ~5.76 square meters of sail area, which matches a Laser Radial. This just barely hits the minimum sail area target but should be adequate since I'll be paddling in light wind anyways. It's tempting to go to a 10' mast to get more than 6sqm of sail.

    Does anyone use the lashing tightness to simulate luff curve while experimenting with sails? It seems like the way to go for someone who knows what sails should look like but doesn't know sailmaking.
    I'm thinking that the rig would be stowed on the aft deck and projecting a little bit forward underneath the carriage since that would allow the mainsheet to go aft of the sliding seat without the mainsheet getting in the way of comfortable sitting when paddling.
    I think the next thing to play around with is designing a sliding seat and carriage with good hiking ergonomics for sailing and good sitting ergonomics for paddling. I quite like the hiking ergonomics of 420s, 5o5s, and Vipers but I would appreciate any suggestions on how to make the boat more comfortable to hike and on seat height for paddling. I've also got to figure out how to place a yoke, which I'm thinking should really be part of the seat or the carriage. I'm guessing one that folds down attached to the front of the carriage will probably work out best.

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