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Thread: Amateur sailing canoe design

  1. #1
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    Default Amateur sailing canoe design

    I致e had an idea for a sailing canoe optimised for my skills and local waters running around in my head for a while now and it has finally gelled enough to ask others for criticism and feedback. I知 probably 5 years away from having the life situation to start a build but I知 currently really enjoying the design process.

    The primary use is to explore the waters around the Rideau Canal system at a faster average pace than a canoe or kayak. This requires the ability to paddle up shallow, narrow creeks that are unsuitable for sailing and to do easy portages to get off the main canal system. The boat needs to be able to switch modes on the water without stopping at the shore and the portages can be done with canoe wheels. I would prefer the best sailing performance manageable under those constraints as I知 an active high performance dinghy racer.

    The secondary use is to cover a typical Algonquin park canoe trip route faster than using pure paddle power. This requires portages over rough ground (no wheels) and more of them. It also requires enough speed under paddle to make it to the lake that the next campsite is booked at without any wind.

    These use cases lead to the following requirements:
    1) Overall weight of <80lb, or breaks into two packages of <60lb for portage
    2) Quick rig/derig possible on the water
    3) Paddles well enough to navigate creeks and maintain a reasonable speed in windless conditions
    4) Sails well enough to be worth the extra effort to portage vs 25lb Kevlar solo canoe
    5) Carry capacity for camping gear and food for a single person for 3-5 days
    6) Higher average speed than canoe

    The current hull design is 14 LOA with a 28 beam.
    boat3d.PNG
    boat4view.jpg
    The general setup is here, the hiking racks bring the overall beam to 5
    boatcomplete.PNG

    The idea is that the hiking racks allow a good righting moment when sailing and paddling is done between the hull and the hiking rack. It is sit-on-top style since at speed this boat will throw a lot of spray. I知 planning on using a daggerboard and cassette rudder. The seat will be fairly high to facilitate using a single paddle and to double as a yoke. I think roughly 6sqm (65sq ft) of sail is about right since I知 willing to accept being slightly underpowered for weight saving reasons.

    I知 still undecided on:
    1) Straight 4mm plywood vs mix of 3mm and 4mm?
    2) Light fibreglass sheath vs paint?
    3) Rig choice. UFO inspired (windsurfer mast with forward diamonds and wishbone boom as in image) vs standing lug vs Hobie Adventure Island rig. Trade-off is between sailing performance and ease of rigging and I知 currently leaning towards standing lug.
    4) Gear storage, under seat or make a hatch?
    5) Hiking wing made of tube vs tube and net vs plywood vs lumber. Looking to keep the weight down but have good ergonomics for hiking and maintain room to paddle between hiking rack and hull. Ideally the ergonomics are similar to a 5o5 but I doubt I have the weight allowance to get there.
    6) Would hiking racks with proper ergonomics also be close enough to work as outriggers for oarlocks when no portages are planned on the trip? Is a sliding seat or sliding rigger worthwhile if the ergonomics work out? I知 not much of a rower so this is the lowest priority on the list.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    14' is too short. The thing that makes sailing canoes work is a low displacement length ratio, ICs are 17 feet. Most open class canoes are 16-17 feet long.
    I went though these motions more than once thinking about hopw to repurpose some Nethercot IC shells.
    I came up with the idea that you could arrange a sliding seat that, when centered, didn't extend beyond the gunwales, and so could be used as a seat when paddling or as a hiking seat when sailing. I assumed booting the thing along with an old ACA style 9' double bladed paddle, which makes single blades look dumb. Rowing can be made to work too. Sliding riggers are the way to go for a relatively short boat.
    I think some sort of clever lateen rig with a very short ( off center?) mast would be the best deal. You really like not having the rig in the air when paddling, so being able to lay it down on deck in between you and the gunwale is best. You also want to be able to pull the centerboard and ruddder to minimize wetted surface, so consider using a pivoting board and kick up rudder. It's also nice if the pieces stay put when changing modes, so not having to find a place to put the daggerboard when not in use is worth the space the bigger trunk takes up.
    We built 15' Delaware Duckers for about 75 lbs, and they could have been lighter. Plywood IC hulls weigh 28 kg, but are much more highly loaded than what you are talking about, so I think it's possible to get to your weight target, but you will have to treat the vessel with some respect.
    SHC

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Tempting to say it can't be done, but who am I to rain on your parade? My first reaction is that the hull isn't large / stable enough to allow shifting your weight around from the cockpit to up on the hiking racks, and that the racks would hit the water on the downwind side. Sailing canoes are infamously tender, yet I'm not aware of any other than the huge log canoes with hiking racks -- but I'm certainly no expert!

    The conflict between performance sailer, camping gear carrier and something that can be portaged seems to be the biggest issue, and I'm not sure how it can be resolved -- but hope it can!

    Best of luck and keep us posted.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Thanks for the feedback, I'll go adjust things to extend the length tonight. I suppose that once I'm doing a second scarf I may as well go all the way to 17'. You caught exactly where I'm coming from, a mix of not being able to forget the one afternoon I borrowed a Nethercot and paddling in Algonquin park on a perfect sailing day. I really love that feeling of efficiency on the IC, and a lot of this design comes down to lowering the loads and downsizing an IC to hit weight limits and giving up rig efficiency for convenience and the ability to paddle.

    You're right that double bladed paddles make way more sense on open water, but I've found that once the water gets shallow and weedy enough the single bladed paddle starts showing its charms. Preferably I'd be able to use both and just carry the one that better suits the trip. That's also why oars are low on the list, they don't make much sense when the water can get to 2' or less and is filled with weeds in a meandering creek.

    Your reasons for the lateen rig are the same ones that led to me preferring the standing lug. I'll have to go do some research and thinking to decide on which one appeals more to me. I really wanted the Hobie AI rig to work, but I can't deal with the lack of twist control. If you think I can hit the weight targets then a centreboard does make more sense. I was thinking that if I fail to meet the weight targets then the boards could be portaged with the rig in a separate trip from the hull and that daggerboard cases are lighter.

    Your sliding seat thoughts are really interesting and will lead me into a deep research rabbit hole of playing designing games. The sliding seat would be much more comfortable and keep the overall beam down for storage and portages. It would also give a nicer double bladed paddling experience. I hadn't quite realized that there was enough width in the hull for that to work.

    I think this is all just barely possible, the hardest part is hitting the weight target but if I fail at that then I'll still have a cartoppable boat that is fun to use in all conditions. The gear carrying isn't that big deal since if I go with freeze-dried food it all fits into a 40L pack. The only time I'm worried at all about stability is raising and lowering the rig, since the gear will be in a dry bag and tippy fast boats are fun. I'm also not planning on using this on trips in the shoulder season without a wet suit since it'll be wet even without a capsize.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I've been playing with sailing canoe design for two years now myself. My requirements are a little tougher because I have a wife that likes to come along!

    I built a model based on the 16 foot Bolger Yellow Leaf, with tiny transom in the back instead of a double ender, an 8 foot cockpit, fore and aft decks with hatches, side decks, a push-pull rubber, and a short boomless sprit rig that can stow under the side decks.
    I think it can be built out of three sheets of plywood, which means the weight might be in the 75 to 100 pound range depending on how carried away I get and what type of ply is used. It will only have about 340 pound max usable load though, which is light for two adults with camping gear. For one man with a six -1/2 foot cockpit, it might fine.

    I figure the simple flat bottom boat will carry the most sail and cargo too, for that matter. With two people using single paddles, I imagine it will not to to much worse than my other 16 foot boats. I don't like the small boomless sail or the leeboard arrangement. I'll have to get some photos to post.

    I also got the plans for the similar if a little larger Bolger Pirogue from Common Sense Designs. It's 16' x 3'3", with greater freeboard, yet supposedly only 85 pounds. This boat is set up for rowing ( Bolgers favorite method of propulsion ) and sailing but can be paddled too. The sail is rather small at 39 sq. ft, but I don't see why it couldn't carry a Sunfish rig, given moderate weather and a good sailor.



    What stopped me is the fact that any of these sailing canoes probably need to go on a trailer instead of atop the car as my canoes and skiffs do.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I guess I should add that my quest eventually lead me to get a set of plans for a Redmond Wisp, a 15' 7" by 3'6" ultralight sharpie skiff -

    Ideal for one or two people, the prototype hull weighs only 68 lbs, and like a canoe, it is easily portaged for camping. It can be car-topped on even the smallest vehicle. It can be stored overhead in a one car garage. It does not require a launching ramp. Any dock or reasonable bit of shoreline is suitable for placing it in the water.


    Performance:
    Rowing: We've received many letters from builders who have won rowing races in their boats. Whisp is delightfully fast under oars, carries way well, rows easily, and has good crosswind abilities.
    Sailing: Whisp is close-winded and fast, with weight, sail area, and performance on par with a Class C racing canoe.
    Fishing, powering, touring: With an economical electric trolling motor, Whisp will cruise all day for bass fishing or sightseeing on a single battery charge, with two people, a large cooler, tackle, and plenty of gear. The boat is very quiet with an electric motor. Whisp's low profile allows close approach to fish and wildlife, without disturbing them.
    Portability:
    If attention is paid during construction Whisp will weigh about what a canoe does. Whisp can be portaged on the shoulder by one person using the center thwart. She is easily car-topped on even the smallest vehicle. (While she carries, stores, and transports like a canoe, unlike a canoe, Whisp won't turn in a headwind on flatwater, and will punch well to windward onder oars. She's a much better, safer, and faster boat on a lake, particularly for solo work.)


    The Wisp is supposed to use three caned seats like a canoe, and it can easily be paddled by to people with single paddles, just like a canoe, which my wife insists upon. It is said to be able to make a ten minute mile under oars, without a sliding seat. It's sail rig is 59 sq.ft. and this boat reportedly rocks under sail. Quite a few have been made with different sail rigs. About the only thing I don't like about it is the lack of built-in flotation. I think I'd build it with a center portage thwart, just like my canoes.

    She seemed to do everything so much better than anything sailing canoe I can design that I gave up my canoe quest, and will eventually build one.






    https://www.sredmond.com/index_boat.htm

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    May I suggest visiting capefalconkayaks.com Look at their canoes (with sails). What you want may already be available.
    A great deal of info .

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Wouldn't a set of lightweight amas or an outrigger work better? They're commonly used on sailing canoes and might provide many of the same advantages as hiking racks when sailing actively. And if they folded or easily dismounted, you'd still be able to paddle the shallow, narrow waters.





    Last edited by Thorne; 03-05-2019 at 06:20 PM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Have you looked at the Artimus sailing canoe? there is a good YouTube from Koos Winnips who build one in his spare bedroom and uses it in the canal and open ocean in Holland. If you want to try out the concept without much time or expense Dave Gentry has added a deck sailing canoe to his line of skin on frame boats.


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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I couldn't find any way to hit my weight and performance targets with a second person aboard, so it makes sense that the canoe didn't work out for you. I figure if anyone wants to come with me then they need to build a second boat. This style of boat has such tight margins that everyone wants to make different compromises, which is part of what drove me to play with designing one. There are so many things to juggle that it's a real challenge.

    Thanks for the link to another interesting sailing canoe. I've done a lot of searching for boats that meet my goals, but none of them have quite fit so far. Most of the European boats are rather close but don't have enough righting moment for playing in 20-30 knots on lake Ontario because their inland lakes never get that much wind. On the other hand the US boats are generally too big to portage over rough terrain since they need to carry fresh water and aren't portaging over glacier carved ridges. The Artemis sailing canoe comes closest to what I want, although I'd prefer more focus on sailing at the expense of sleeping aboard and less focus on paddling. The cape falcon kayaks don't look like they have the structural stiffness or righting moment to do what I want, although they'd be better for paddling and portaging. Almost all of the boats built for this market seem to be targeted at paddlers and are the best paddling boat that can sail adequately. I'd really like the reverse, the best sailboat that can paddle adequately.

    The hiking racks started as outriggers, because if you're putting the structure out there it makes sense to add some buoyancy. Then I started doing some preliminary weight calculations and realized something had to go so I cut the outrigger away to save weight. If the boat relies on outrigger buoyancy for righting moment then the BOA needs to be 8-10 ft instead of 5ish feet like it can be if I'm relying on body weight and that drives the weight way up. If I'm relying on body weight then the buoyancy is only for safety when I screw up and I'd rather get wet than portage more weight. If it gets built with racks instead of with a sliding seat then I'll probably get some buoyancy bags or inflatable amas for when I don't mind the weight.

    I've gone and extended the boat to 17' and played with the shape so that all the numbers work out.
    Longboat4view.jpg
    The longer boat also has a much nicer drag curve on michlet at 350lb displacement:
    michletlong.PNG
    compared to the shorter one at 330lb displacement:
    michletshort.PNG
    So it seems like the extra length made a huge difference in drag, especially in mostly eliminating the planing hump.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I can see you are getting to where #2 said you would be. The short slide would be pretty effective. Its what the first versions of the sliding seat canoes had, a slide that was as long as the beam of the canoe.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Yeah, the sliding seat suggestion was great. I'm currently sketching out 28" and 30" seats. The 28" is the beam of the boat so it would be best for paddling and gives the same effective beam as a laser, which I'm hoping to sail as well or better than. The 30" compromises paddling somewhat but no more than most sailing canoes and gives a bit more righting moment. The final decision there will probably wait until spring when I can attach things to my solo canoe to simulate an extra 2" of beam in the seat area and go for a paddle. Here is what that looks like:
    Attachment 32499

    When people say the IC seat weighs 6-8kg are they including the carriage or is that just the seat? Built to the same scantlings that would put my seat at about 3kg (6.5lb) and that could probably be trimmed some due to lower loads. That's way lighter than the hiking rack system I was planning and more ergonomic for both paddling and sailing.

    Speaking of scantlings, do the kayak people use 4mm for toughness or because they aren't using stringers to stiffen things up like the sailors using 3mm? With the extra length being able to go the 3mm for most of the hull would be a big weight saving and I'm not afraid to baby the boat.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I sail and Oughtred Macgregor, have for nearly 20 years. 15.7" x 32 inches with a single leeboard. You can sail where it's too shallow to paddle or row. I also sometimes carry a punt/mooring pole. Tip up rudder is preferred for snags, and shallows, but you can steer with weight and leeboard movement and a paddle. I carry a long shaft paddle, on downwind runs with a balanced lug sail it mitigates the death roll. But I now use a dipping lateen.
    I built amah's but never used them. Frankly a length of PVC pipe will do better, but make handling in restricted creeks etc more difficult. I don't have a formal seat as I move back and forth in the boat as it demands. I also made a long shaft motor from a brush cutter, works fine but noisy and smelly. You need a gas mask and ear plugs.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    http://gentrycustomboats.com/splinter.html

    A really light efficient paddling hull and just enough to sail effectively.

    Add a blue barrel for the gear and you're done.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    Yeah, the sliding seat suggestion was great. I'm currently sketching out 28" and 30" seats. The 28" is the beam of the boat so it would be best for paddling and gives the same effective beam as a laser, which I'm hoping to sail as well or better than. The 30" compromises paddling somewhat but no more than most sailing canoes and gives a bit more righting moment. The final decision there will probably wait until spring when I can attach things to my solo canoe to simulate an extra 2" of beam in the seat area and go for a paddle. Here is what that looks like:
    Attachment 32499

    When people say the IC seat weighs 6-8kg are they including the carriage or is that just the seat? Built to the same scantlings that would put my seat at about 3kg (6.5lb) and that could probably be trimmed some due to lower loads. That's way lighter than the hiking rack system I was planning and more ergonomic for both paddling and sailing.

    Speaking of scantlings, do the kayak people use 4mm for toughness or because they aren't using stringers to stiffen things up like the sailors using 3mm? With the extra length being able to go the 3mm for most of the hull would be a big weight saving and I'm not afraid to baby the boat.
    That is the full seat weight on an IC. The carriage is part of the boat.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I own a 15'x28" ultralight canoe, glued lap plywood, designed by Tom Hill. It has a BSD sail rig, the Classic, about 37 sqft. The boat weighs forty pounds or less, I have not weighed the rig. It sails acceptably for a boat that was never designed or built to sail. It does not plane, nor point as high as I would like. Without any frames, caution is required to avoid hull damage in a breeze: no hiking, luff in the puffs. I use sandbags for ballast, I have also used stones and water bottles. She still wants agility to keep upright. Exploring thin water is her greatest strength, under paddle or sail.
    IMG_1195.jpg
    I think you are on the right track, and can have the boat you want.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Sent you a PM.
    SHC

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Thanks, I think I've replied.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Not to be taken too seriously, this was week of messing about with a mate and stuff at hand lashed together (my daughter was doing Nationals and we had time to kill). No rudder, weight and board position steering outriggers became higher and of lower volume as we went on. A taken off and purity of the canoe returned

    https://youtu.be/4EYRbl4NEZE

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I think Mik Storer's Viola ticks a lot of your boxes. This is the high-powered rig, there are others. No need for racks, might not paddle so well as a 28" wide boat. https://www.storerboatplans.com/boat...ailing-dinghy/


    I second taking a look a the Cape Falcon boats - Brian is working on a new one right now.

    My Chautauqua sailing canoe (thanks for the nod Jim Cummings) is also fast, and about the same width. I row her, rather than paddle, and no hiking rack or sliding seat is needed for her.
    The Splinter OC (thanks P.I. Stazzer-Newt!) can also be built as a 15' boat - and also with double outriggers. Better outriggers than a 2x4 would be my recommendation for most efficient paddling . . . .
    I have also updated and simplified my old 16-30 "Olympia" sailing canoe design, though plans are only in the beta stage, currently. 16' x 30", decked, with a simple sliding seat. Meant for sailing, though, with paddling only if the wind completely dies.
    Here's a crude rendering:
    New Olympia profile 2 small.jpg
    I should also have a dedicated sailing version of my Chuckanut kayak line coming out this year.
    Note that I don't think any of these are really what you want - but they might give you some ideas.

    Other -
    I like your hull. SOF might be your best option for it, but I could be biased.
    I think a hiking plank might be the easiest option over a sliding seat or racks. Just an overhanging board hooked under the leeward gunwale. It could double as a paddling seat when placed over both gunwales. Cheap, easy, light. The simpler your boat is to rig and use, the more you will be inclined to use it.
    Racks might also make portaging awkward if you have to go through trees or whatnot, if that's an issue.

    Dave
    Last edited by DGentry; 03-07-2019 at 11:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Viola does tick a lot of my boxes, unfortunately 40" beam is just too much to paddle nicely. I really like the side tanks as a way to add buoyancy while still being able to put the gear weight low, unfortunately I don't think they're worth the extra weight vs a deck on a 28" beam like they are on a 40" beam.

    Chautauqua looks interesting, I just read through your build thread and the info page. If I was more interested in rowing I might've bought some plans but shes a little wide for paddling. I would like to hear about your experience with her, particularly about how the rig performs and how well SOF works at higher speeds. The standing lug looks similar to what I am considering, although I'm leaning towards a single sail rather than a ketch. I'd especially like to hear about how practical raising and lowering the rig on the water is and whether the performance and cost penalties of the ketch are worth the benefits it brings in handling the boat.
    When I started thinking through the project it was going to be SOF, but as I looked into it a bit more the SOF boats that can take sailing loads seem to lose their weight advantage and I'm worried about skin flutter at higher speeds. That's why I'm planning on using the IC style 3mm plywood with reinforcements for this boat. SOF seems to make more sense for paddling boats like the Geodesic Airolite arrow 14 I'm partway through building now.

    The hiking plank would definitely be easier to build, but I think the sliding seat is worth the complexity for the boat handling benefits it brings. I can't see a hiking plank tack being anywhere near as quick as a sliding seat one. It also keeps the advantages of being able to be used as a paddling seat and doesn't take any rigging whatsoever once its installed.
    The portages are generally wide enough for two canoes to pass each other, so the path is usually 6' wide. The racks wouldn't make me popular on a busy trail but they would fit. I've dropped them from the design anyways because the sliding seat works better in every way.

    I've been messing around with hull design with both a 15'8" and a 17' design. According to Michlet they're basically the same drag at less than 5 knots, above 5 knots the 15'8" design has about 10% more drag which translates into about 3% less speed for the same drive. Here are the updated hull lines for the 15'8" design
    3view.jpg
    Edit: Mocked up a standing lug sail (spars not shown), foredeck, and sliding seat to get a better view of what it'll look like.
    boat3dsail.PNG
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by paddlesail; 03-07-2019 at 09:51 PM.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    The IC sliding seat is more sophisticated than other sliding seats, it is thinner at the front that back acting as a planing wedge on touchdown. It is also quite thick and provides buoyancy. There as been a boat Quill with sliding seat with floats on the end

    https://youtu.be/A9MF2Mlp3Jw

    the pro slingshot did the same.

    If I was going down this route I would use an IC type carriage and have the floats above the shear line


    But it if I was to build something like this again I’d go down the Tacking Proa route, as you say at the moment it is just a design exercise so worth exploring

    Always liked the canoe tri concept as well, liked the elimination of foils and the beam / seat

    not particularly suggesting and route just a bit of inspiration

    For concept knockups I use Onshape, free online cad package, much easier to think digitally, then delftship later

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Photo posting playing put some examples on my blog. Ignore the designs just showing what Onshape does


    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    Viola does tick a lot of my boxes, unfortunately 40" beam is just too much to paddle nicely. I really like the side tanks as a way to add buoyancy while still being able to put the gear weight low, unfortunately I don't think they're worth the extra weight vs a deck on a 28" beam like they are on a 40" beam.
    The owner of Viola has a paddling seat which raises him up allowing paddling without hitting this knuckles on the gunwale.

    https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/7663...autologin=true Grr - photo posting not working

    He also uses a removable thwart set at deck level for short paddles, this was inspired by the Solway Dory’s which are worth a look if you’re not familiar

    http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Yes,

    14ft works fine too as the Viola shows. Allows some weight savings. It is reasonable to consider shorter.

    MIK

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    So everywhere in my last post that I said standing lug I meant to say balanced lug. Oops. Here is what the boat looks like with spars and stuff added:
    BalanceLugSailplan.PNG

    Tink: Why would you go tacking proa rather than shunting proa? I think if I went in that direction I'd go full weird, the physics look better to me coming from a standpoint of never having sailed a proa since you can get your weight to windward on both tacks.
    I also like the canoe tris. They have a lot going for them, the problem is that I haven't found a way to rely on buoyancy for righting moment and come anywhere near my weight goals. It helps that I'm a high performance dinghy fan and really enjoy sailing the unstable boats so I'm not too worried about stability except when raising or striking the rig.
    Even if the paddling can be physically made to work on the wide boats, I strongly prefer paddling narrow boats. My favourite traditional cedar and canvas canoe is 30" wide and is the nicest paddling canoe I've ever come across. The 36" beam rental canoes are awful in comparison. I just love the narrow boats, it's a personal weakness.
    I'll have to look at onshape. Right now I'm doing everything in Freeship and really feeling the loss of access to SolidWorks I used to have on school computers.

    MIK: Trying to fit the displacement into 14' by 28" was doing awful things to my hull shape so either one of them had to grow or I needed to become a much better boat designer. Given my weakness for narrow boats I chose to increase the length since portaging the extra weight will be worth the performance gains.
    Viola comes really close to being what I want. If I wasn't enjoying the design process so much and looking for the ideal boat for me personally it'd be on the shortlist of plans I'd be interested in building.
    edit: Actually Beth comes even closer to what I want, but designing my own boat is still a lot of fun.
    Last edited by paddlesail; 03-08-2019 at 07:13 PM.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Someone mentioned Cape Falcon up thread here is one of his videos about prototyping sail rigs on small canoes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi9QvnIenMg
    There are a bunch more. I did try putting a small 30 square foot or so sail on my SOF Wee Lassie and found there just wasn't enough room to make it reasonable. Need a bigger boat or a smaller sail. Have fun, sailing canoes are some of the coolest boats.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    Tink: Why would you go tacking proa rather than shunting proa? I think if I went in that direction I'd go full weird, the physics look better to me coming from a standpoint of never having sailed a proa since you can get your weight to windward on both tacks.
    I also like the canoe tris. They have a lot going for them, the problem is that I haven't found a way to rely on buoyancy for righting moment and come anywhere near my weight goals. It helps that I'm a high performance dinghy fan and really enjoy sailing the unstable boats so I'm not too worried about stability except when raising or striking the rig.
    Even if the paddling can be physically made to work on the wide boats, I strongly prefer paddling narrow boats. My favourite traditional cedar and canvas canoe is 30" wide and is the nicest paddling canoe I've ever come across. The 36" beam rental canoes are awful in comparison. I just love the narrow boats, it's a personal weakness.
    Shunting proas send you down a whole rabbit hole of complexity. Shunting takes used more room and therefore less appealing in confined waters, you OP mentioned creaks. With a tacking proa the outrigger can be a 100% displacement down to as little as want. I would be thinking of just around the 100 to 200kg of buoyancy and used nothing more than a bit of emergency stability. The outrigger gives you the confidence to sit on the gunwale of the hull or even smaller hiking seats. All of the stability comes from crew action except when over very over pressed or static, as you say striking the rig

    this is a very crude model (draw a while back so but hopefully it gives an idea of what I’m on about).

    20E78EFD-37A7-4874-9CFF-420B8B884BCB.jpg

    My 12’ x 30” is obviously 30” wide, it has some tumblehome but for me sitting on the cockpit sole is about the maximum beam without hitting my knuckles on the gunwale. Clearly there is a relationship between the vertical distance between sole and gunwale.

    A longer boat is much easier to get on a roof rack if that is important, it will be quicker but at the expense of weight. My 12’ x 30” is a tad over 30lb

    hope your enjoying the process, could go on for ever about this stuff but sunny day and a stiff breeze is calling me to the water

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I experimented with Crab Claw rigs in the Mac, but did not go much further than that. I built amahs but never used them Tossed them down the tip a fortnight ago. Shunting involved a deal of movement around the boat to get the balance and steering right without a rudder. (A big paddle helps).

    You might be interested in this Canoe sailing group
    http://www.ocsg.org.uk


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    tink: The creeks aren't worth trying to sail in since they're very shallow, very narrow, and have trees on both sides blocking all the wind. They're one of the prime reasons I want it to paddle well.
    I see where you're coming from now. Because this boat is going to throw enough spray to soak me whether or not I capsize it will only be used in the warm season, so I don't think that emergency stability is worth carrying the extra weight on a portage. It would make a nice boat, just not quite what I'm after.
    We've got a really nice solo double paddle canoe thats 12' by 28" and paddles really well but could use just a touch more length, which is why I set the beam at 28" for this boat.

    Skuthorp and sailnstink: Thanks for the links, I'm just reading/watching through it now and there is a lot of good information there especially on what rigs work well in this context.
    Last edited by paddlesail; 03-09-2019 at 07:47 AM.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I sail my Kayak on the Rideau Canal. I went with a used plastic hull instead of wood, but all the same principles apply I think. In addition to my Kayak, I have also cruised tte lentth of the Rideau in my 21 ft Sharpie.

    Here are some thoughts:
    -The nature of the Rideau Canal means you have a headwind %50 of the time, and a following wind the other half of the time. It seems to be the nature of canal sailing, the wind wraps around and follows the canal, reaching doesnt seem to happen much.
    -Light to no winds are frequently encountered in the summer.
    -it probably isnt worth tacking upwind on the Rideau on any kind of light sailing canoe. Your Upwind VMG will likely be best by dropping the rig and paddling upwind. Your downwind VMG will likely be best sailing or paddle sailing depending on wind strength.
    -The more complex your design is the heavier its going to be and the more sail its going to need to drive it and the heavier its going to be to portage. Your 80 lb target seems like a reasonable max weight, but might be a tough target if you get into outriggers and hiking boards.

    Knowing the Rideau and Algonquin, I would be inclined to want a boat that paddles very well with the sail providing auxillary power and endurance. In order for the boat to paddle well I would like 3 things; light, narrow and long.

    For my build I went with a hull that is 17 ft long with a 23 inch beam. I went with a modern cat rig sail with a carbon fibre pop up rig. I dont use a leeboard, hiking boards or outriggers. Because the boat is light and easily driven, I get away with a small sail that doesnt require hiking boards or outriggers. For higher winds when leaning upwind isnt enough to keep my boat on its feet, I perform a low brace with my double bladed paddle and the paddle becomes an effective outrgger (upgrading paddle to a Western Red Cedar Greenland paddle this week).

    My total boat weight including rig and sail is 68 pounds, but its plastic, I suspect by going with lightweight ply, you could get that weight down on a similar design by another 10-15 pounds.

    My boat eats up the miles pretty well. Paddles effortlessly at 3.5 knots and sails at 4.5-5 knots in 12-15 knots of wind on a reach to a run. Paddle sailing incrreases both of those speeds.

    If I was atempting your build, I might go wiith an off the shelf, proven ply kayak design 16-18 ft with a beam around 23-24 inches, double bladed paddle and a modern off the shelf sail rig from one of the kayak/canoe rig manufacturers (Falcon, BSD, etc.).
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Arcb; 03-09-2019 at 07:57 AM. Reason: Add pic

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    It sounds like I'll have to experiment with that kind of rig on one of our kayaks or the solo canoe this summer. I can experiment with that kind of sailing in few months without having to build anything. Thanks for the suggestion, that looks like a lot of fun.

    I agree with all of your thoughts, except that I think a well designed boat will be able to make better vmg to windward by sailing than by paddling. The struggle is to keep as many of the other virtues as possible while adding enough righting moment and sail area to make decent upwind vmg. It helps that most of my trips end up closer to the Kingston side of the canal where it's more linked lakes and less canal than near Ottawa so I've got more room to tack.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    paddlesail: . . . When I started thinking through the project it was going to be SOF, but as I looked into it a bit more the SOF boats that can take sailing loads seem to lose their weight advantage and I'm worried about skin flutter at higher speeds. That's why I'm planning on using the IC style 3mm plywood with reinforcements for this boat. SOF seems to make more sense for paddling boats like the Geodesic Airolite arrow 14 I'm partway through building now.
    GA boats, while fantastic, are a far cry from any of my boats. I have opted for a much tougher - though heavier - construction method. The fabric we use is far heavier as well.

    Chautauqua handles just dandy at high speeds - I've spent at least a couple of hours at more or less 10kts in her. [On a beam reach, in flat water, with lapses in concentration being risky}. No skin flutter at even higher speeds, though one is not concentrating on that at the time.

    The standing lugs I use are for simplicity and head room. I run the halyards and reefing lines back to the cockpit, in both Chautuaqua and the Light Melonseed, and it's easy to work the sail from there. Chautauqua's spars are miniscule - the main mast is about 6' long, and easy to pull.
    The rig on Chautauqua is period. I opted for it because it was very low, but still gives good head room. In fact, she had the lowest rig of any boat at a well attended small craft festival, lower even than the smallest of dinks. She had no problems passing most all of the boats there - but there's no way that rig would stay with a Laser upwind.

    Chautauqua in light air, for the first minute and a half, or so.


    My experience with all sailing canoes is that they are at their worst on a beat in very gusty and/or very shifty conditions. Near impossible to sit out, as any sudden lull or big shift would put you right over to windward. One sits in the middle and tries to lean while frantically sheeting out in a gust, often never making much progress as a result.

    Very shifty conditions are quite common in narrow waters surrounded by trees or hills - which may be the case there . . . .
    That's one explanation why British sailing canoes of the late 19th century, and somewhat later, rarely used sliding seats, whereas canoe sailors in the US and Canada often did - they sailed on more open waters than the narrowish rivers the Brits sailed on.


    As an aside to potential canoe sailors, they are most stable when you are lying on your back on the cockpit floor, with your head sticking up past the gunwales. I've sailed for miles that way in a couple of different canoes, and it is pretty comfortable and reassuring. It was the only way I could sail my Bolger Eeek! at all, actually, but worked equally well with Piccolo and some others. Upwind speed is hampered, of course, since one can not hike the boat flat.

    Done bloviating. For now.

    Sailnstink: I did try putting a small 30 square foot or so sail on my SOF Wee Lassie and found there just wasn't enough room to make it reasonable. Need a bigger boat or a smaller sail.
    I'd love to see that!
    Last edited by DGentry; 03-09-2019 at 12:42 PM.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Either will be fun, I had trouble deciding between a proper sailboat and a kayak or canoe with a sail. I am pleased with the results of the auxillary sail. It even gives me a decent boost to my upwind VMG when paddle sailing,

    Agree there is some decent sailing on Big Rideau and Newborough Lakes, if you can pick a route that stays out of the lee of the islands. I would lean more towards the sailing route for those two lakes as well. Every where else on the Rideau and most parts of Algonquin, I think a lot of sailing canoes would be hard pressed to make better VMG on a beat than a Sea Kayak or decent sized decked canoe under paddle.

    A regular canoe/kayak with an auxillary sail mart be able to handle class 1 and 2 rapids which means less total portaging. This is using the auxillary sail as a power boost to climb the Long Island Rapids on the Rideau River.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Arcb; 03-09-2019 at 01:38 PM.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    This is for you DGentry, I couldn't resist building a model of the Eek!



    18 SAM_6988.jpg

    18 SAM_6997.jpg

    18 SAM_6985.jpg


    I sail and Oughtred Macgregor, have for nearly 20 years. 15.7" x 32 inches with a single leeboard. You can sail where it's too shallow to paddle or row. I also sometimes carry a punt/mooring pole. Tip up rudder is preferred for snags, and shallows, but you can steer with weight and leeboard movement and a paddle. I carry a long shaft paddle, on downwind runs with a balanced lug sail it mitigates the death roll. But I now use a dipping lateen.
    I built amah's but never used them. Frankly a length of PVC pipe will do better, but make handling in restricted creeks etc more difficult. I don't have a formal seat as I move back and forth in the boat as it demands. I also made a long shaft motor from a brush cutter, works fine but noisy and smelly. You need a gas mask and ear plugs
    That's the boat I always wanted!
    I read about her in "Thirty Wooden Boats" back in 1988, the year I got out of the military. I fell in love and decided that she was the perfect boat, and this was before I'd read The Complete Cruiser or any of John MacGregors books!

    I got a set of plans and although I had no idea what I was doing I went ahead to build her anyway. Just out of a tour in the service, I had gone back and was living with my mother and way to many siblings at the ancestral homestead. I cleaned out the garage, built a workbench, and built a strongback, all carefully leveled and plumb. The next day I got home from work and found my evil twin brother had torn the strongback apart and shoved it aside, so he could pull his chevy S-10 into the garage and change the front half-shafts.

    I just about committed murder. Instead I packed up my jeep and headed out west. I still hate my evil twin brother. I carted those plans about for several decades but lost track of them. I probably tossed them out. It probably is a more complicated build than I can handle.

    I would love to learn more about how she behaves for you Skuthorp.

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