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Thread: Amateur sailing canoe design

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Not sure I fully understand but sounds like a neat idea

    never built one but I like the idea of stub masts for quick raising and lowering

    34A743DD-C7FA-4CAB-8B5A-46BC9AAC7ECD.jpeg

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I am not sure if it would be possible to upsize my mast raising system. Maybe, it is a slick system if you can make it work.

    The mast step is a universal joint, kind of similar to a windsurfer.

    The stay arrangement is pure beach cat except the forestay is a running stay. Just tension the forestay against the two back stays. Its fast.
    https://youtu.be/IA2SPVDyvmY

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Tink: I'm talking about this system linked earlier in the thread by upchurchmr. https://youtu.be/C8kUq4BouS0?t=52 and http://www.diy-tris.com/2012/4-EZ-up.htm and http://www.diy-tris.com/2012/5-close-ups.htm
    It works similarly to a stub mast except it constrains the mast to centerline all the time. More importantly it also keeps the mast halyard perpendicular to the mast while hoisting to avoid cosine losses which allows it to be shorter for the same ease in raising the mast. Once hoisted it acts like a mast partner.
    I was thinking about ways to modify it so that the rig can be pushed off to the side when down. I think the best way is to use have the "track" in the raising thing widen near the base and some way to the the mast step off the centerline. I'm still puzzling out how to do that efficiently. It probably involves using two tubes angled inwards instead of the plate that Frank Smoot uses. I'm not sure what the best way to get the mast step off centerline when the rig is down but lock it on centerline securely when the rig is up without a big weight penalty.

    I like the sail he has here at the top of the page. http://www.diy-tris.com/2012/12-S-16-Solo.htm It allows some roach for better twist control and for the sail to collapse without battens getting in the way when the mast and boom are folded together. It seems like a reasonable compromise.

    Arcb: That system has two solvable issues when scaling up. The first is that it doesn't constrain the mast sideways until the mast is fully raised. That's fine with a tiny rig but could lead to some interesting mast raising with a larger rig. The solution is to use inline stays that stay tight even when the mast is down.
    The second is that is has massive cosine losses as you're beginning to raise the mast, so the first bit has to be done by hand before the forestay takes over. That's probably fine on the rig size I'm planning and if it isn't it can be fixed with a gin pole.
    What I like about the Smoot system is that it solves both of those issues in a really rather clever way.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    wtarzia: That Gougeon boat is really cool, I've tried to find information on it before and didn't find much. Do you know where to look for more details?

    tink: I've read all of that site, its really good.
    --- Everybody wants more information about Gougeon's sailing canoe, and we have gone unsatisfied for years. There is some new information available on the thread here, posted this week, so things are looking up a little. New piece of info: Voyageur/Elderly Care is apparently 19 feet, not 17. -- Wade

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I've sketched up my rig ideas by hand since it's still all conceptual right now.
    The raising mechanism is like in the Smoot tris except made of aluminum or carbon fibre tubes and allows the mast to lean off to the side when lowered. The mast step rotates out to the side on a swing arm to get the rig sitting nicely off to the side when paddling. The complexity could be dropped with an offcentre mast but the lack of symmetry pains me. The offcentre mast probably makes more sense.
    It has a laser style mainsheet to give more forward travel on the sliding seat since the rig extends farther back than on ICs due to the lower aspect ratio rig.
    The boomvang will probably be either quick detach with something similar to a laser or double tailed with a coarse and a fine side to allow the boom to fold up against the mast without excessive amounts of vang line while still having enough purchase.
    The mast will be a byte CII mast with a custom boom and gooseneck to allow for folding against the mast. My hope is that the reduced twisting leverage from a sail with less roach will compensate for the higher righting moment of my design compared to a byte. If the new carbon laser rigs come out that would probably be a better choice.
    The sail is a medium roach pinhead. I'm planning on dacron for durability since it's more likely to survive being folded regularly and less likely to fail catastrophically away from civilization. I doubt it will have the stability to use the cunningham for camber control so the vang will have to do double duty as twist and camber control. This means it will probably still run into the laser issue of not being able to flatten and twist at the same time
    RigSketch.jpg

    If I understand things correctly the advantages of this rig over the balanced lug is that I get more rig height for a given spar weight so it will go upwind better with the same rig weight. It will also give more control over the sail shape, particularly the camber in the bottom half of the sail. If I'm lucky it will also have some automatic gust response, but I'm not sure how well that works without a large roach and higher tech sails. It also lets me buy a non-custom spar.
    The disadvantages vs a lug rig would be the longer spars making storage in paddling mode more difficult and the greater rig height for a given sail area means it has to be depowered sooner. It also won't be reefable while the lug rig is easy to reef.

    This rig could be made to work with either the stub mast or running stay systems mentioned by tink and Arcb a few posts ago. Unless anyone can point out some flaws in the Smoot system I'm not seeing then it seems to be the more elegant solution. I think I like the running forestay second best.
    Last edited by paddlesail; 03-18-2019 at 12:23 AM. Reason: Fix picture

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Picture 1000 words. I now understand your mast folding mechanism better and should be a neat solution.

    on an IC the Cunningham is critical, if the front of the sail is too full as you tack it suddenly powers up and makes tacking very hard. Probably a function of the fully battened sail more than anything, not sure what it will do on your fan sail.

    I presume by Laser mainsheet you are referring to the rear bridle, with such a narrow hull and no jib I think this might result in the sail pulled in too much. I was only the other day reading about the angle a single sail should be, can’t remember where 9/10 degrees to the centre line rings a bell but clearly lots of variables.

    rear sheeting will also be hassle with tiller extension

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    If I am understanding the rig/hull combination, the boat seems like it would be pretty high strung for cruising. If you are trying to cover distance, it might be tough fighting an unreefed sail of that size in blowy conditions for 8 or 10 hours, while navigating, drinking, eating etc. I am tired just thinking about it.

    I have never sailed a boat with too many reef points.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
    If I am understanding the rig/hull combination, the boat seems like it would be pretty high strung for cruising. If you are trying to cover distance, it might be tough fighting an unreefed sail of that size in blowy conditions for 8 or 10 hours, while navigating, drinking, eating etc. I am tired just thinking about it.

    I have never sailed a boat with too many reef points.
    I have the same take on this. It is all about being efficient whether under sail or under paddle power in order to make longer trips. If it takes too much energy to sail the boat, you are probably not going to like it after a while (or even last the distance).

    Further any transitions need to be quick and easy as to maintain a good pace (they really can absorb much time). I really like the lug rig for this on my Viola 14 canoe. Very easy and quick to drop the rig and put in a reef. And the mast is also very easily pulled and put out of the way when having to paddle. The 6.3 m2 lug rig still performs very well in a range of conditions and 3 reefs allow me to readily adjust the sail size as required. The mast is a simple aluminium tube (two sections for easy storage in the canoe). The yard and boom are however scavenged from a carbon windsurfer mast as to save weight (especially high up).

    I have rigged an outhaul controlling sail shape in the lower part of the sail. The only other controls are a halyard to raise the rig, a downhaul and the main sheet. Whilst others are still faffing around rigging their boats, I am long gone as it literally takes only one minute (two at most) to go from paddling to sailing.

    When having to tack upwind using a hiking plank or outriggers is okay for longer distances, but when short tacking you are risking getting wet quickly in a blow (I think).

    Lastly some thoughts about the optimal boat width for using a double bladed paddle. When sitting on the floor the boat needs to be narrow as to clear the gunwales. Since your body weight is positioned low, the boat is quite stable. With the proposed flat deck I assume that you will be sitting high up on the middle of the sliding seat. You are now further from the water and you can easily clear the gunwales. The Artemis canoe and the Viola 14 canoe both use raised seats (the one on the Viola canoe is raised more since the boat is wider) to get one up high enough for good paddling. Since these boats are more stable, this is not a problem. Obviously a narrower boat is more efficient under paddle power, but is it really suited for efficiently making longer trips under sail power?

    I will be participating in a sailing marathon in May in the Netherlands covering 60 km (37 miles) of canals (and some lakes) with my canoe (paddling is allowed and so are poling and towing). Regardless of the conditions, this will take a good many hours of sailing and paddling and the conservation of energy is important in order to cover the distance in the permitted time period (no more than 12 hours, which means an average speed of 5 km / 3.1 miles an hour).

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost Engelen View Post
    I have the same take on this. It is all about being efficient whether under sail or under paddle power in order to make longer trips. If it takes too much energy to sail the boat, you are probably not going to like it after a while (or even last the distance).

    Further any transitions need to be quick and easy as to maintain a good pace (they really can absorb much time). I really like the lug rig for this on my Viola 14 canoe. Very easy and quick to drop the rig and put in a reef. And the mast is also very easily pulled and put out of the way when having to paddle. The 6.3 m2 lug rig still performs very well in a range of conditions and 3 reefs allow me to readily adjust the sail size as required. The mast is a simple aluminium tube (two sections for easy storage in the canoe). The yard and boom are however scavenged from a carbon windsurfer mast as to save weight (especially high up).

    I have rigged an outhaul controlling sail shape in the lower part of the sail. The only other controls are a halyard to raise the rig, a downhaul and the main sheet. Whilst others are still faffing around rigging their boats, I am long gone as it literally takes only one minute (two at most) to go from paddling to sailing.

    When having to tack upwind using a hiking plank or outriggers is okay for longer distances, but when short tacking you are risking getting wet quickly in a blow (I think).

    Lastly some thoughts about the optimal boat width for using a double bladed paddle. When sitting on the floor the boat needs to be narrow as to clear the gunwales. Since your body weight is positioned low, the boat is quite stable. With the proposed flat deck I assume that you will be sitting high up on the middle of the sliding seat. You are now further from the water and you can easily clear the gunwales. The Artemis canoe and the Viola 14 canoe both use raised seats (the one on the Viola canoe is raised more since the boat is wider) to get one up high enough for good paddling. Since these boats are more stable, this is not a problem. Obviously a narrower boat is more efficient under paddle power, but is it really suited for efficiently making longer trips under sail power?

    I will be participating in a sailing marathon in May in the Netherlands covering 60 km (37 miles) of canals (and some lakes) with my canoe (paddling is allowed and so are poling and towing). Regardless of the conditions, this will take a good many hours of sailing and paddling and the conservation of energy is important in order to cover the distance in the permitted time period (no more than 12 hours, which means an average speed of 5 km / 3.1 miles an hour).
    At the risk of a bit of thread drift, I'm wondering if the roller reefing sail/rig used on the Metz Mebo 12 my be a good candidate for a sailing canoe, particularly the Viola? Any thoughts on that Joost?

    http://metzboats.de/pdf/mebo12_eng.pdf

    Cheers,

    Adrian
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Adrian Valley; 03-19-2019 at 01:24 AM. Reason: picture

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Here's a slightly different approach...
    http://www.raptor-uk.net
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    Here's a slightly different approach...
    http://www.raptor-uk.net
    Well I like it, not sure paddlesail will, doesn’t want an outrigger. Lots of interesting videos. If the foil works well you can have a very small outrigger but then again the tramp area is very useful for gear

    thanks for posting

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Valley View Post
    At the risk of a bit of thread drift, I'm wondering if the roller reefing sail/rig used on the Metz Mebo 12 my be a good candidate for a sailing canoe, particularly the Viola? Any thoughts on that Joost?

    http://metzboats.de/pdf/mebo12_eng.pdf

    Cheers,

    Adrian
    I think that a rig where the sail rolls around the mast is a feasible option. It is used by the Solway Dory sailing canoes. They prefer this system since it allows them to reef the sail quite easily and quickly on the water.

    I went with the lug rig since having to strike the rig completely very often to pass under low bridges. This is where the lug rig is quicker and easier in use. Also the COE does not change as much with the lug rig in comparison to the bermuda rig rolled around the mast when reefing much.

    But both work fine. It just depends on where you sail which rig is better suited for the job.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost Engelen View Post
    I think that a rig where the sail rolls around the mast is a feasible option. It is used by the Solway Dory sailing canoes. They prefer this system since it allows them to reef the sail quite easily and quickly on the water.

    I went with the lug rig since having to strike the rig completely very often to pass under low bridges. This is where the lug rig is quicker and easier in use. Also the COE does not change as much with the lug rig in comparison to the bermuda rig rolled around the mast when reefing much.

    But both work fine. It just depends on where you sail which rig is better suited for the job.
    Thanks Joost, I'm going to contact Metz boats and Michael Storer, to see if this can be an option for the Viola.

    Thread drift over apologies Paddlesail….

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Well I like it, not sure paddlesail will, doesn’t want an outrigger. Lots of interesting videos. If the foil works well you can have a very small outrigger but then again the tramp area is very useful for gear

    thanks for posting
    It's an oddball approach to a foil for stability, there have been a number of attempts to use the Bruce foil for canoes and kayaks.

    I suspect that the weed problem will rule out any sort of foil.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    My thoughts on reefing and sail controls is that a properly set up sail with relatively independant control over camber and twist gives more than enough wind range without any reefs, and that a reef generally takes that ability away. Conventional sails do this by having a lot of the sail shape come from luff curve so that camber can be adjusted by mast bend. They then have a way of controlling mast bend that isn't leech tension such as the backstay on keelboats, the mast ram on 5o5s, or more relevantly the downhaul on skiff style rigs with full battens. Camber control can also be done by mast rotation of a wing mast. Twist control is done with a boom vang or really wide traveler. With any of those except the wing mast a reef puts the sail on a stiffer part of the mast and generally forces it to be more full, which means the reef needs to be really deep to actually reduce the power since you lose the flat and twisted shape.
    Rigs with a little less control use leech tension to control mast bend which robs you of the ability to set the sail flat and twisted, but leaves the options of no twist with any camber and any twist with full camber. A reef in this type of boat costs you the ability to flatten the sail, but by that point you need the twist more so you don't lose anything of value. An example would be a laser.
    Rigs with a little less control than that use the outhaul for camber control in the foot of the sail but don't have any way of adjusting the camber in the head of the sail out on the water. They still have twist control. These usually have really small rigs or the ability to reef since reefing doesn't come with any performance drawbacks. Some examples would be the 420 and most cruising masthead keelboats.
    Finally some rigs have no twist or camber control such as boomless sails without a traveler. These sails really need reef points.

    I would really prefer to have some control of camber at the head. My worry with the lug rig is that it falls in the second last category and doesn't have control over the head camber but I've never examined one in person so I hope I'm wrong. It looks to me like most of the camber in the head of a lug rig must be controlled by broad seaming rather than luff curve, especially when the yard is relatively horizontal, which would mean that it can only be changed by a sailmaker. I suppose that if the head is cut flat enough then it won't matter too much. The lug does seem to be the most convenient for transitions.
    For those with lug experience: Can you flatten the top half of the sail while sailing by bending the yard? How long does it take to reef?

    The sail rolling around the mast rig with boomvang fits into the second category and is also under serious consideration. It can have control over mast bend by using the vang and is really easy to reef and furl. As Joost says, it would also be harder to drop the spar for less air drag and more stability when paddling. If the lug rig has the same amount of sail shape control I think I'd prefer the lug rig for the short spars and the ease of striking the mast to get under bridges and trees.

    The rig I've been toying with recently fits in the first or second category depending on how well the angled battens work out. If it has independentish control over camber and twist then it's probably worth the complicated and more difficult method of striking it and losing the ability to reef. If it doesn't then the lug rig or rolling around the mast rig are the better options. It all depends on if the radially angled battens can keep the camber from moving forwards when the cunningham (downhaul) is on tight so that it bends the mast instead of pulling sail cloth forwards.




    I'm not too worried about a 6ish sqm sail in blowy conditions because it's between the laser sail sizes and about the same size as my favourite windsurfing sail. I've had fun playing with lasers in over 30 knots and I'm planning on something smaller than the full rig sail. The windsurf sail starts launching me over the nose in the mid twenty knots, but it's the old style with deep camber and no twist.

    I am planning on a high strung boat since my normal plan is to boat for about 6 hours in a day on trips and eat and drink at portages. That gives me plenty of time to snag the best campsite on the lake, go for a swim, gather firewood, cook, and set up all the camping gear before dark. It's also about the same amount of time on the water as a regatta and I just plain like high strung sailboats.
    I had forgotton about needing to navigate though, that'll probably be pretty difficult on this boat. In my defense I've been taking friends on beginner trips recently over areas where I've memorized the route. Navigating could probably be done in the lee of an island or with the rig struck.
    I am definitely risking getting wet in a blow by using the hiking seat, but I think that in decent wind I'm going to get soaked by the spray anyways so why worry. I'll use non-sailing canoes when it's cold.

    I will have to do some experimenting on how much wider I can make the boat if I sit higher. The extra beam adds a reasonable amount of stability and minimal drag but just how wide I can go will have to be determined by sitting in or on a boat with pool noodles or something on the gunwhale. I prefer a fairly high angle kayak stroke so I may not get as much out of it as others would.


    The raptor is a really cool boat but is too heavy for what I want. According to the review in the link it needs to be dissasembled to be portaged and that takes about two hours at each end. If you live in an area where portages are rare, or are flat enough you can use wheels to move it without disassembly it seems like a great solution.

    I don't consider discussing cool sailing canoes or rig ideas to be thread drift even if they don't quite fit what I'm trying to accomplish. Every single one of them has neat ideas that might be a better compromise for my purposes than what I'm currently planning and discussing what those compromises are is the best way to find out which ones suit the purpose. As a bonus it'll hopefully be helpful to the next person trying to find or design their ideal sailing canoe.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    I would really prefer to have some control of camber at the head. My worry with the lug rig is that it falls in the second last category and doesn't have control over the head camber but I've never examined one in person so I hope I'm wrong. It looks to me like most of the camber in the head of a lug rig must be controlled by broad seaming rather than luff curve, especially when the yard is relatively horizontal, which would mean that it can only be changed by a sailmaker. I suppose that if the head is cut flat enough then it won't matter too much. The lug does seem to be the most convenient for transitions.
    For those with lug experience: Can you flatten the top half of the sail while sailing by bending the yard? How long does it take to reef?

    The sail rolling around the mast rig with boomvang fits into the second category and is also under serious consideration. It can have control over mast bend by using the vang and is really easy to reef and furl. As Joost says, it would also be harder to drop the spar for less air drag and more stability when paddling. If the lug rig has the same amount of sail shape control I think I'd prefer the lug rig for the short spars and the ease of striking the mast to get under bridges and trees.
    The mast on a lug rig needs to be as stiff as possible. You will rely on the yard bending in gusts to flatten the top part of the lug sail and to get twist. Both are good if you want to loose power (and especially high up you want to loose it sooner since it has more leverage there). What is very important is that the yard bend matches the head round to have some proper depth high up in lulls and to have the yard bend more in gusts as to depower the rig (so you need a sailmaker who knows his/her stuff). In short: the rig, if properly set up, it takes care of you in this respect. This is very similar to how a windsurfer rig works (in gusts the mast will bend more allowing the head of the sail to twist.

    The camber in the bottom part of the sail you can easily control by ending an adjustable outhaul. I have the same on the lug rig.

    Putting in a reef in a lug rig, if you have preset everything, takes 2 minutes or so. The only disadvantage is that you need to dump the rig to tie in the reefs. On the other hand, with the rig down the boat settles down much and it is much easier to do. The Solway Dory rigs do it differently with the sail up (detach the vang, slacken the outhaul and turn the mast - repeat until you are happy, set the depth correctly and attached vang again).

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    I'm not too worried about a 6ish sqm sail in blowy conditions because it's between the laser sail sizes and about the same size as my favourite windsurfing sail. I've had fun playing with lasers in over 30 knots and I'm planning on something smaller than the full rig sail. The windsurf sail starts launching me over the nose in the mid twenty knots, but it's the old style with deep camber and no twist.
    The approach with the lug rig is a bit different. Rather than sheeting out or flattening the sail, I try to keep an optimal sailshape at all times. So you simply adjust the sail size to the windspeed, very much like most windsurfers would have various sail sizes to cover a range of windspeed. So a different approach as to comparison to most sailboats which you cannot reef (Laser, 505, etc.) where you use the controls as to power up the sail or depower it depending on the circumstances. Still comparing to windsurfers: the formula windsurfers use very large sails. As such they need more sail controls in order to be able to manage the sail area in higer windspeeds (for example adjustable outhauls).

    Another advantage of making the sail smaller in stronger winds is that it becomes fare more manageble when having to set or strike the rig.

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    I am planning on a high strung boat since my normal plan is to boat for about 6 hours in a day on trips and eat and drink at portages. That gives me plenty of time to snag the best campsite on the lake, go for a swim, gather firewood, cook, and set up all the camping gear before dark. It's also about the same amount of time on the water as a regatta and I just plain like high strung sailboats.
    I had forgotton about needing to navigate though, that'll probably be pretty difficult on this boat. In my defense I've been taking friends on beginner trips recently over areas where I've memorized the route. Navigating could probably be done in the lee of an island or with the rig struck.
    I am definitely risking getting wet in a blow by using the hiking seat, but I think that in decent wind I'm going to get soaked by the spray anyways so why worry. I'll use non-sailing canoes when it's cold.
    Yes, it has become clear that you are looking for a high strung boat! And very high strung sailing canoes are not available on the market. Please note though that if the rig is more cumbersome to set or strike you will lose time. Same for navigating or capsizing. Or for having to disassemble a lot (sliding seat, rig, etc.) before you can portage. So all in all the slighty less high strung boat may still be faster. It is typically being able to maintain solid speed all the time if you want to make high averages, not about being very quick in short bursts. That is at least my experience in raid type of events.

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    I will have to do some experimenting on how much wider I can make the boat if I sit higher. The extra beam adds a reasonable amount of stability and minimal drag but just how wide I can go will have to be determined by sitting in or on a boat with pool noodles or something on the gunwhale. I prefer a fairly high angle kayak stroke so I may not get as much out of it as others would.
    For a high angle kayak stroke, you will need a narrow boat. I have obviously paddled my Viola canoe some longer distances (up to 15 km) and a narrower boat will certainly be faster given a certain power input. Obviously the wider boat has other advantages (not requiering hiking racks or a hiking seat). Also having a 6m2 fathead sail on my Viola 14 canoe, I do think that you will need to be able to get your weight out further than the gunwales if the wind starts to pipe up and that sail controls alone will not be sufficient on a very narrow boat...

    Here is a link to a video of a 5 day cruise we made last year with 3 canoes and a sailing pram showing footage of the Artemis canoe as well as the Viola 14 canoe during a 5 day camp cruising trip on the canals and lakes of the Nothern part of the Netherlands. All four boats have (balanced) lug rigs. You will see the sails on the aforementioned canoes reefed much in the video (sometimes because the conditions required it, sometimes because we were much outpacing the other boats). It may give you some further ideas for your boat.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkSUd5PA6qs

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Thats great Joost, I subscribed so I can watch more later. I do some raids in North America, and my philosophy sounds similar to yours.

    I like to keep the speed to a reasonable level. You can't finish first if you flip, break your boat, or don't finish at all. If I canb balance the boat out so the sail is cleated off and the boat kind of self steers, that makes me happy.

    I like sailing fast too, but not when I am in the middle of nowhere with 70-80 pounds of gear on board

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost Engelen View Post
    The mast on a lug rig needs to be as stiff as possible. You will rely on the yard bending in gusts to flatten the top part of the lug sail and to get twist. Both are good if you want to loose power (and especially high up you want to loose it sooner since it has more leverage there). What is very important is that the yard bend matches the head round to have some proper depth high up in lulls and to have the yard bend more in gusts as to depower the rig (so you need a sailmaker who knows his/her stuff).
    This is exactly what I wanted to hear about lug rigs. Your video shows some nice sail shape too. That puts lug rigs back on the table.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joost Engelen View Post
    The Solway Dory rigs do it differently with the sail up (detach the vang, slacken the outhaul and turn the mast - repeat until you are happy, set the depth correctly and attached vang again).
    I think that if the vang is attached to the deck just aft of the mast then that process could be simplified a little. I think for my purposes the lug rig works better anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joost Engelen View Post
    Yes, it has become clear that you are looking for a high strung boat! And very high strung sailing canoes are not available on the market. Please note though that if the rig is more cumbersome to set or strike you will lose time. Same for navigating or capsizing. Or for having to disassemble a lot (sliding seat, rig, etc.) before you can portage. So all in all the slighty less high strung boat may still be faster. It is typically being able to maintain solid speed all the time if you want to make high averages, not about being very quick in short bursts. That is at least my experience in raid type of events.
    You're right about high strung sailing canoes barely existing, it's basically just the ICs and those are too high strung for paddling and portaging to be very practical. I'm trying to find the balance between performance and practicality but I tend to go too far towards the performance side and need to pull back sometimes. I don't plan to disassemble the sliding seat since it should make a decent place to mount a yoke but I do need to worry about the practicality of setting and striking the rig. Seeing how well the sails set in your cruising video has done a lot to calm down my performance urges. It looks like lug rigs can perform much better than I thought they could.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joost Engelen View Post
    Also having a 6m2 fathead sail on my Viola 14 canoe, I do think that you will need to be able to get your weight out further than the gunwales if the wind starts to pipe up and that sail controls alone will not be sufficient on a very narrow boat...
    I agree that I'll need to get my weight out past the gunwhales, that's what the sliding seat is for. It should give me about the same distance off the center as I can get in a laser. I think your solution of having a balanced lug for cruising and a fully battened fathead for the rest of the time might be the best way to go. It means I get the right rig for both messing around at the cottage and going on trips. Do you find much difference in performance between the two?

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    This is exactly what I wanted to hear about lug rigs. Your video shows some nice sail shape too. That puts lug rigs back on the table.

    I think that if the vang is attached to the deck just aft of the mast then that process could be simplified a little. I think for my purposes the lug rig works better anyways.

    You're right about high strung sailing canoes barely existing, it's basically just the ICs and those are too high strung for paddling and portaging to be very practical. I'm trying to find the balance between performance and practicality but I tend to go too far towards the performance side and need to pull back sometimes. I don't plan to disassemble the sliding seat since it should make a decent place to mount a yoke but I do need to worry about the practicality of setting and striking the rig. Seeing how well the sails set in your cruising video has done a lot to calm down my performance urges. It looks like lug rigs can perform much better than I thought they could.

    I agree that I'll need to get my weight out past the gunwhales, that's what the sliding seat is for. It should give me about the same distance off the center as I can get in a laser. I think your solution of having a balanced lug for cruising and a fully battened fathead for the rest of the time might be the best way to go. It means I get the right rig for both messing around at the cottage and going on trips. Do you find much difference in performance between the two?
    I can't help thinking that the Artemis canoe sounds like a good fit for your circumstances, perhaps with a lug sail....

    Artemis.jpg
    Last edited by Adrian Valley; 03-19-2019 at 09:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Yeah the Artemis or Viola sailing canoes are the closest I've seen to what I want. Artemis would definitely work well for me but I am still interested in designing my own because I'd like to bias the design for more wind and larger waves than Artemis was optimized for. I'm also playing with design because I won't be able to build for a few years anyways while I get settled into the work force but I can play with boat design software and drafting.

    The major differences between what I'm designing and Artemis are:
    1)To go to sit on top so I can sail on larger lakes (like lake Ontario) without worrying about swamping or constant bailing. This will come at a slight weight penalty and a penalty to stability under paddle.
    2)IC style sliding seat rather than the hiking board wedged under the toerail to improve the sailing ergonomics. Again costs small amount of weight and a fair bit more complexity and build effort.
    3)Transom stern to allow me to move farther back to avoid pitchpoling when driving into the back of a wave and for higher top speed potential. This costs a bit of extra drag at paddling speed from more surface area at the stern. It also gives a bit more stability.

    Basically I want Artemis modified for the larger lakes in Ontario rather than the smaller ones in the Netherlands. I think Artemis will be the better boat in the Netherlands but I'm hoping that what I'm designing will be better suited to the conditions in Ontario and my sailing style. Plus designing boats is fun and sailing canoes are so personal that they're worth designing your own to make it a perfect fit for you.

    Artemis would be a good fit for me, but I've got time to play with design so I may as well try for the perfect fit.

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    3)Transom stern to allow me to move farther back to avoid pitchpoling
    Not sure that that as want a transom will give you, you want less buoyancy in the back not more. Think of how far back Skiff sailors have to go verse IC sailors.

    I would not usually recommend sailing anarchy but the DC thread is less acidic and a genuine collaboration of ideas
    http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...15-dc-designs/

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    The major differences between what I'm designing and Artemis are:
    1)To go to sit on top so I can sail on larger lakes (like lake Ontario) without worrying about swamping or constant bailing. This will come at a slight weight penalty and a penalty to stability under paddle.
    2)IC style sliding seat rather than the hiking board wedged under the toerail to improve the sailing ergonomics. Again costs small amount of weight and a fair bit more complexity and build effort.
    3)Transom stern to allow me to move farther back to avoid pitchpoling when driving into the back of a wave and for higher top speed potential. This costs a bit of extra drag at paddling speed from more surface area at the stern. It also gives a bit more stability.

    Basically I want Artemis modified for the larger lakes in Ontario rather than the smaller ones in the Netherlands. I think Artemis will be the better boat in the Netherlands but I'm hoping that what I'm designing will be better suited to the conditions in Ontario and my sailing style. Plus designing boats is fun and sailing canoes are so personal that they're worth designing your own to make it a perfect fit for you.

    Artemis would be a good fit for me, but I've got time to play with design so I may as well try for the perfect fit.
    Whilst the Artemis was designed to sail "sit-in" one can definitely sail it"sail on top" as shown in the video shows.

    The Artemis is really a 50/50 paddle/sailing canoe. The out of the box sailing qualities of the Viola 14 canoe are maybe a bit better (more stable hull and more width so more power to it and easier to sail). The Dutch Artemis canoe however does use a leaning plank hooked under the side deck when it is blowing and outfitted with one of those, performance under sail is quite similar and circumstances dependent (the Viola canoe tacks a bit better upwind through narrow channels in a blow as it is easier to sail going from side deck to side deck).

    The Artemis is definitely the better paddling boat. The hull shapes are very different with the Artemis being much narrower aft and the Viola canoe have a quite wide hull aft supporting crew weight a bit more (referring to your point number 3) - some width further aft may improve sailing qualities but cost you on the paddling).

    The Artemis canoe is 50 cm longer and some 20 cm narrower than the Viola.

    The lug rig in the video used by the Artemis is 6 m2 and the lug rig used on the Viola is 6.3 m2. Both were made by the same sail maker (who knows his stuff).

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Not sure that that as want a transom will give you, you want less buoyancy in the back not more. Think of how far back Skiff sailors have to go verse IC sailors.

    I would not usually recommend sailing anarchy but the DC thread is less acidic and a genuine collaboration of ideas
    http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...15-dc-designs/
    In general true. But a canoe is so light and easily dominated by your body weight that a bit more width aft does not harm but will improve sailing qualities. Obviously not to be exaggerated!

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Valley View Post
    I can't help thinking that the Artemis canoe sounds like a good fit for your circumstances, perhaps with a lug sail....
    Below a photo of the same boat with a 6 m2 lug rig. More in the video I gave the link to.

    [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/37084156@N07/]
    Last edited by Joost Engelen; 03-20-2019 at 01:45 AM. Reason: Changed to medium sized photo

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    I think your solution of having a balanced lug for cruising and a fully battened fathead for the rest of the time might be the best way to go. It means I get the right rig for both messing around at the cottage and going on trips. Do you find much difference in performance between the two?
    We started with the Viola as a lightweight sailing dinghy having the size of a wide canoe as to allow for a very lightweight and minimal boat. Only later was the lug rig added for cruising (or for people wanting a more classic boat).

    I like having 2 rigs (or actually 3 since I have fully battened 4.7 m2 and 6.0 fathead sails as well as the 6.3 m lug rig). Performance wise, obviously the 6.0 m2 is fastest (if you can handle it since it is very powerful). The 4.7 m2 is much nicer to handle an still fast, but lacks a bit of oompf in lower wind speeds for heavier sailors. The lug rig is largest a 6.3 m2 and gives decent light weather performance. In higher wind speeds, the difference between the lug rig and the fully battened sails becomes more noticeable in the sense of the lug rig having more drag and a slightly worse sail shape. That just comes with the type of rig. But you can optimize performance by ensuring that the yard bend and head of the sail work together and by having an adjustable outhaul. Some people add a vang to the lug rig as to have more control over the leach. But for cruising my opinion is that less is better as it complicates setting and striking the rig.

    When cruising, the easy handling of the lug rig more than compensates. The boat still goes with the lug rig, just a bit less in comparison to the fathead sails.

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    I'm rather taken by the Viola, but would love to see one decked over and rigged like a Solway Dory.... I live in windy WA and can envisage myself scooting around on/in such a boat; I wonder if Mik could be persuaded to offer a version such as this? I suppose in keeping with the minimalist ethos of the boat, the bow and stern could even be "decked" with boat cover material, to keep out the majority of spray....
    Last edited by Adrian Valley; 03-20-2019 at 03:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Amateur sailing canoe design

    Quote Originally Posted by paddlesail View Post
    Yeah the Artemis or Viola sailing canoes are the closest I've seen to what I want. Artemis would definitely work well for me but I am still interested in designing my own because I'd like to bias the design for more wind and larger waves than Artemis was optimized for. I'm also playing with design because I won't be able to build for a few years anyways while I get settled into the work force but I can play with boat design software and drafting.

    The major differences between what I'm designing and Artemis are:
    1)To go to sit on top so I can sail on larger lakes (like lake Ontario) without worrying about swamping or constant bailing. This will come at a slight weight penalty and a penalty to stability under paddle.
    2)IC style sliding seat rather than the hiking board wedged under the toerail to improve the sailing ergonomics. Again costs small amount of weight and a fair bit more complexity and build effort.
    3)Transom stern to allow me to move farther back to avoid pitchpoling when driving into the back of a wave and for higher top speed potential. This costs a bit of extra drag at paddling speed from more surface area at the stern. It also gives a bit more stability.

    Basically I want Artemis modified for the larger lakes in Ontario rather than the smaller ones in the Netherlands. I think Artemis will be the better boat in the Netherlands but I'm hoping that what I'm designing will be better suited to the conditions in Ontario and my sailing style. Plus designing boats is fun and sailing canoes are so personal that they're worth designing your own to make it a perfect fit for you.

    Artemis would be a good fit for me, but I've got time to play with design so I may as well try for the perfect fit.
    Unless you are planning on a very short sailing season, the last thing I would want on Lake Ontario is a wet high strung boat.

    I sail my kayak on Lake Ontario 9 months a year. When I am out in October, November, December, March, April and May, staying warm is what it's all about. My boat is fully decked with spray skirt, I am wearing thermal layer, dry suit, skull cap, neoprene gloves, pogies on my paddle and I still want my risk of capsize to be really small. If you plan to sail her on Lake Ontario, that would make me want reef points even more, not less.

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