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Thread: Bothered and Bewildered…

  1. #176
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Progress continues, a 26 x 39 Print by Thomas Dutton should help with the rigging. Still plodding along.




  2. #177
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  3. #178
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    I'm beginning the search for images of hardware associated with Truant. Especially Jib club boom, boom and mast fittings. These would be images from 19th century ships- nothing modern. Any thoughts?





  4. #179
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Ship stuff would be irrelevant. There are some early yachting hardware catalogs from around 1900, but your best bet would be to make an appointment at Mystic and ride down for a close look at ANNIE.
    Ben Fuller
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  5. #180
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Dixon Kemp and Thomas Kunhardt published illustrations of yacht hardware. Most of it is obvious stuff, like adding a table to the mast. I think Kundhardt's illustrations of his catboat, Coot, would be a good guide.

  6. #181
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Couple of observations. The boom looks longer than your drawings would indicate.
    As yet I can see no tapers. Skeene's sets out spar taper for trad gaff rigs.
    The arms of the gaff and boom jaws where they would be bolted to the spars looks to be about half as long as they should be.
    The boat nearest the camera in plate 60 will give you a clue
    Plate 8.jpgPlate 60.jpg
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #182
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Two illustrations from John Leather's Gaff Rig Handbook ti illustrate the proportion of gaff jaws and how the tumbler sits between them.

    Scan_20190512 (2).jpgScan_20190512.jpg
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 05-12-2019 at 03:06 PM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #183
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    For elegant gaff and boom jaws, taper the ends of the spars where the jaws lay and taper the leg of the jaw that lays against it so you don't have great clunky jaws sticking out from the spars. Rivet the jaws on with a rivet that goes all the way through both jaws and the boom.
    Ben Fuller
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  9. #184
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Stumped.... that's what I am.

    I have stared at this image for a week and still can not figure the topsail of Truant.
    What holds that spar up? Is it loose footed. What about hardware?


  10. #185
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    Stumped.... that's what I am.

    I have stared at this image for a week and still can not figure the topsail of Truant.
    What holds that spar up? Is it loose footed. What about hardware?

    Iron bands, generally.







    Those images are from a model ship forum: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/205...f-topsail-rig/

  11. #186
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Iron bands, generally.







    Those images are from a model ship forum: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/205...f-topsail-rig/
    Too complex for a small boat.
    Think lateen sail with the heel of the yard pinned back to the mast by a line through a block at the hounds. Falmouth quay punts rigged their topsails in this way as they had a very short mast head in order to get in under a square riggers rigging.
    And yes the sail is loose footed.
    Scan_20190515.jpg
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #187
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    I'll check my copy of Small Yachts when I get home, but I seem to recall even fairly small American boats with the iron bands.

  13. #188
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I'll check my copy of Small Yachts when I get home, but I seem to recall even fairly small American boats with the iron bands.

    One graphic artist has shown hoops on the mainsail the other spiral lacing, but the topsail lashed tight to its yard probably with robands or marled lacing and no peak halyard. How can you strike such a topsail on iron bands?
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 05-16-2019 at 07:03 AM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #189
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post

    One graphic artist has shown hoops on the mainsail the other spiral lacing, but the topsail lashed tight to its yard probably with robands or marled lacing and no peak halyard. How can you strike such a topsail on iron bands?

    BINGO.... now you get it!!!! You're confused, too.

  15. #190
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    BINGO.... now you get it!!!! You're confused, too.
    No I am not. See my post #186.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #191
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    If the topsail was added once the boat arrived in England, I can see your solution being right, Nick.

    Club topsails of any sort seem not to have been used in America until Madge arrived in America nearly 30 years later. That said, adding an English style topsail seems like something that could easily have happened.

  17. #192
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    If the topsail was added once the boat arrived in England, I can see your solution being right, Nick.

    Club topsails of any sort seem not to have been used in America until Madge arrived in America nearly 30 years later. That said, adding an English style topsail seems like something that could easily have happened.
    Yes, having looked at Chapelle's American Small Sailing Craft I see that topsails were not common on small American craft. So the fitting of a topsail, requiring only two blocks on the mast and a bee on the end of the gaff after she arrived here in the UK is entirely feasible.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  18. #193
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  19. #194
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    From Small Yachts, topmast hardware for an 18-foot American yacht:

    topmast hardware 5-16-2019 11-35-03 PM 1824x3264.jpg
    OK, does it show how the topsail is set and struck? I'll bet it looks nothing like the engravings of Truant.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  20. #195
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    OK, does it show how the topsail is set and struck? I'll bet it looks nothing like the engravings of Truant.
    Some of these were reefing topmasts, raised through the hoops almost like a sliding gunther, except that the iron stayed stationary on the mast and the upper spar was raised through it.

    As to how it compares to the prints of Truant, I can't see enough detail to tell how that topsail is attached. I'm quite willing to believe someone on the east side of the Atlantic put it on, using the style of topmast you propose, but I think it's worth noting that the style Kunhardt showed was used on quite small yachts in America at the time.

  21. #196
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Some of these were reefing topmasts, raised through the hoops almost like a sliding gunther, except that the iron stayed stationary on the mast and the upper spar was raised through it.

    As to how it compares to the prints of Truant, I can't see enough detail to tell how that topsail is attached. I'm quite willing to believe someone on the east side of the Atlantic put it on, using the style of topmast you propose, but I think it's worth noting that the style Kunhardt showed was used on quite small yachts in America at the time.
    Yes, all topmasts were capable of being struck in order to reduce top hamper. Some were fitted with a tumbler fid operated by a line from the deck. Dixon Kemp explains how that works with an illustration.

    To be pedantic, my proposal is for a topsail yard, referred to as a gaff topsail - not a topmast.
    My proposal is like this, but with a timinogey bringing the heel of the topsail yard back to the mast to make it stand vertical.
    Plate 39.jpg
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  22. #197
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    That's what I understood you to mean. Sorry I got the terminology wrong.

  23. #198
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    More photos, I have a copy of "Small Yachts" and was aware of the illustration. I see no references to iron bands on the Dutton print. (I had a high resolution jpeg printed actual size at Staples, they just aren't there). The b/w model photo may be my way out... it looks reasonable.






  24. #199
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    "timinogey"????!!!!


  25. #200
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Why change from this rudder with yoke

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    Progress continues, a 26 x 39 Print by Thomas Dutton should help with the rigging. Still plodding along.

    To this one with a tiller?
    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    More photos,





    The model in your OP has a yoke.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  26. #201
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    "timinogey"????!!!!

    A line from the heel of the topsail yard over a block or sheave at the mast and down to deck. It pulls the heel of the yard back so that it stands vertical on a rig where the tack down-haul cannot do do on its own.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  27. #202
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Why change from this rudder with yoke


    To this one with a tiller?

    The model in your OP has a yoke.
    Once enlarged, the Dutton print shows four men in the cockpit and a tiller used for steering. The yoke was from the presentation model. Why would anyone use a yoke instead of a tiller?

  28. #203
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    That's a sweet model, Gary. Nice work!

    The hull form reminds me of a boat that I ran across back in the 80's, the "Abe Lincoln". At the time the Lincoln was on he hard in a boatyard in Mattituck, Long Island. She's now in the Long Island Maritime Museum. I'm guessing from memory but she would have been abut eighteen, twenty feet, plumb stem low deadrise with very slack bilges, transom about the same shape as your model. She did have a low cabin with a rounded front. I'll see if I can find a picture.

    Jim

  29. #204
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    Once enlarged, the Dutton print shows four men in the cockpit and a tiller used for steering. The yoke was from the presentation model. Why would anyone use a yoke instead of a tiller?
    You can sit anywhere in the hull with a yoke. Sometimes depending on how hard mouthed she is (many boats of that era were hard mouthed) and the size/shape of the cockpit you end up with the tiller jammed in your ribs and no where to go.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #205
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You can sit anywhere in the hull with a yoke. Sometimes depending on how hard mouthed she is (many boats of that era were hard mouthed) and the size/shape of the cockpit you end up with the tiller jammed in your ribs and no where to go.
    The yoked rudder is still here, it's going nowhere.

  31. #206
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    The more I look at this, the more I think either the boat is pole masted, or Nick is right about the topsail yard.

    The yoked rudder is sometimes used on a pond yacht.

  32. #207
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    The more I look at this, the more I think either the boat is pole masted, or Nick is right about the topsail yard.

    The yoked rudder is sometimes used on a pond yacht.
    If she were pole masted there would be hoops or visible lacing on the topmast as there is on the luff of the mainmast. I doubt that the artists would have drawn one set but not the other. Also there are no ratlines for going aloft for stowing the topsail.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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