Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123 ... LastLast
Results 36 to 70 of 207

Thread: Bothered and Bewildered…

  1. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Try a minor edit and save as a jpg or something.
    Tried that in #33.

  2. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,675

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Tried that in #33.
    The edit worked, body plan and curve of areas but no wl or buttocks. Still a slight hollow in the DWL.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  3. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

  4. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    For comparison, a working oyster sloop of the same location and type, about 15 years later:


  5. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,675

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Yep. Still a smidgeon of hollow in the bow waterlines. And rather than canting the maximum section I would move the whole thing further aft. That set of lines would not prompt the comment
    carries her body all aft
    May be try pulling the maximum section back to the 4th station from the transom.
    The Seabird half rater carries her body well aft


    Put a vertical stem and transom on her and you will be getting close.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  6. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Dedham, MA
    Posts
    921

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    John- Seems to me that the keel on this would be wider. UNA started with a 5' x 7' x 18' slab of white oak. It tapered to 2" at each end and left the full 7" for centerboard placement. I'm guessing that a 20 footer probably had at least 3" at the bow and stem. UNA gives the appearance of a wine stem transom, but it's an illusion.

    Also, the LOA is 22' and LWL measured in at 20.5' at the waterline. Shouldn't the bow be a reverse plumb?
    Last edited by G.Sherman; 03-01-2019 at 08:29 PM.

  7. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lindstrom, MN
    Posts
    2,568

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    FWIW, I traced the lines that I posted earlier on a grid.
    Truant.jpg
    This is an excel file. The column height and row with are set to the same number of pixels to make them square. Image properties are set not to move or change with cells.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 03-02-2019 at 12:53 PM.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  8. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    John- Seems to me that the keel on this would be wider. UNA started with a 5' x 7' x 18' slab of white oak. It tapered to 2" at each end and left the full 7" for centerboard placement. I'm guessing that a 20 footer probably had at least 3" at the bow and stem. UNA gives the appearance of a wine stem transom, but it's an illusion.

    Also, the LOA is 22' and LWL measured in at 20.5' at the waterline. Shouldn't the bow be a reverse plumb?
    I don't see how the waterline figure is possible with a plumb or reverse plumb bow. Any ideas? And as the 1867 design shows, plumb rather than reverse was the style of stems for sloops, plus that's what the presentation model looks like. Nor do any of the pictures seem to show a reverse stem.

    Here's a version with the wider keel and center of buoyancy moved aft:

    Truant, wider keel 3-1-2019 6-03-45 PM 1578x810.bmp.jpg

  9. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    FWIW, I traced the lines that I posted earlier on a grid.
    Truant.jpg
    That could be a very good approach if the lines I've come up with need to be redrawn.

  10. #45
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,675

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    John- Seems to me that the keel on this would be wider. UNA started with a 5' x 7' x 18' slab of white oak. It tapered to 2" at each end and left the full 7" for centerboard placement. I'm guessing that a 20 footer probably had at least 3" at the bow and stem. UNA gives the appearance of a wine stem transom, but it's an illusion.

    Also, the LOA is 22' and LWL measured in at 20.5' at the waterline. Shouldn't the bow be a reverse plumb?
    I think that 3" would be too heavy for a 20 footer. 2 1/2" max.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  11. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,675

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Another way forward would be to carve a half model to capture all the info that you have. If the owner of the model will send you loads of photos that would help.
    Use the drawing of her sailing and the photos, with the stated dimensions and descriptions to guide you.
    I started with these three old photos

    Plate 4.jpgPlate 5.jpgPlate 6.jpg

    Carved this

    Square Tuck Stern.jpg

    And lifted the lines

    Fig 7.jpg

    The more photos you can obtain the easier it will be.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  12. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lindstrom, MN
    Posts
    2,568

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Another way forward would be to carve a half model to capture all the info that you have. If the owner of the model will send you loads of photos that would help.
    Use the drawing of her sailing and the photos, with the stated dimensions and descriptions to guide you.
    I started with these three old photos

    Carved this

    Square Tuck Stern.jpg

    And lifted the lines

    Fig 7.jpg

    The more photos you can obtain the easier it will be.
    Three very different photos to a half model and plans. Obviously the human brain, Nick's anyway, is far more capable than the 3D imaging software.

    If you can get enough photographs of the model, there is software that can generate plans. Perhaps the modl owner would be interested in plans in exchange for the use of his model.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Cockey View Post
    I document boats with photogrammetry using Metashape, formerly Photoscan, software. https://www.agisoft.com/ The output is a colored point cloud and textured mesh, usually with millions of points available. My usual workflow is to import the mesh into Rhino, then slice it for lines and/or sample it and fit surfaces to create a 3D model. Almost any camera including cell phones can be used to take photos for Metashape, and the software automatically corrects for lens distortion. The subject does need to have a bit of visual texture so clean, glossy gelcoat usually does not work. However I've had good luck with painted surfaces, even recently painted, which are slightly dirty.

    The standard edition of Metashape is $179. I purchased a license in 2012 and it continues to be good for the latest updates.
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...81#post5825481
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  13. #48
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,675

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Three very different photos to a half model and plans. Obviously the human brain, Nick's anyway, is far more capable than the 3D imaging software.

    If you can get enough photographs of the model, there is software that can generate plans. Perhaps the modl owner would be interested in plans in exchange for the use of his model.http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...81#post5825481
    Sounds good, if you want to spend $179 on a hobby. The block for that half model came out of the scrap pile.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  14. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lindstrom, MN
    Posts
    2,568

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Sounds good, if you want to spend $179 on a hobby. The block for that half model came out of the scrap pile.
    Agreed, but if the OP is going to build the boat, he will spend a lot more than $180. There are free programs available too. https://all3dp.com/1/best-photogrammetry-software/

    EDIT: Yes. Loads of pictures from all angles. Maybe some powder to reduce reflections, stick on tags to provide surface references, etc. etc. etc. The links provide much more information. Far too many details for this venue.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 03-02-2019 at 04:32 PM.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  15. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,675

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Agreed, but if the OP is going to build the boat, he will spend a lot more than $180. There are free programs available too. https://all3dp.com/1/best-photogrammetry-software/
    Mr Sherman is going to need to obtain loads of photos then. But if he can he will be able to build an accurate replica.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  16. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Based on the lines for Laura and Una, I'm thinking the boat would not be built down to the keel so much as having a skeg at the stern and a rising rabbet above it:



    So I've drawn a version with that setup:

    Truant reconstruction, separate skeg 3-2-2019.jpg

  17. #52
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,675

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Based on the lines for Laura and Una, I'm thinking the boat would not be built down to the keel so much as having a skeg at the stern and a rising rabbet above it:


    So I've drawn a version with that setup:

    Truant reconstruction, separate skeg 3-2-2019.jpg
    Just so

    But in that case the skeg would have been parallel sided. A true appendage.
    I would still pull the buttocks down more at the third station forward of the transom.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  18. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Just so

    But in that case the skeg would have been parallel sided. A true appendage.
    I would still pull the buttocks down more at the third station forward of the transom.
    I haven't figured out how to do the parallel sided skeg in Delftship. No doubt it can be done. Making the boat deeper at that station would make it deeper than the reported draft. Perhaps I could make it slightly less veed.

  19. #54
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,675

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I haven't figured out how to do the parallel sided skeg in Delftship. No doubt it can be done. Making the boat deeper at that station would make it deeper than the reported draft. Perhaps I could make it slightly less veed.
    Leave the rebate alone, just fill the buttocks out.
    You could look at putting inflexion into the rebate in plan to create a parallel sided skeg.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  20. #55
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

  21. #56
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Found a different way to do it. Sides of the skeg aren't really parallel, but that's because it still follows the width of the rabbet, which needs to be wide enough for the centerboard case.

    Truant reconstruction with skeg 3-2-2019.jpg

    Anyway, it's now more like something that could actually be built.
    Last edited by johnw; 03-02-2019 at 05:22 PM.

  22. #57
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,675

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    well, I've done that. Now It has an extreme looking displacement curve.

    Truant hydrostatics 3-2-2019.jpg
    Yep
    The “strange-looking little foreigner…has her mast stepped in her very eyes- has a long easy entrance – full withal, andnot a hollow line about her – carries her body all aft – does not draw much more water than about a foot in ballast trim – sails with a small centre board” noted another fascinated reporter. “She is about twenty feet over all, and seven feet beam.”
    I expect that if anyone had done the sums, the Seabird will have done so as well, but both craft were probably designed by eye with a block model.



    Also remember that Scott Russell's wave line theory did produce freaks with loooong bows and a very short run.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  23. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Dedham, MA
    Posts
    921

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Found a different way to do it. Sides of the skeg aren't really parallel, but that's because it still follows the width of the rabbet, which needs to be wide enough for the centerboard case.

    Truant reconstruction with skeg 3-2-2019.jpg

    Anyway, it's now more like something that could actually be built.
    Robert Fish was a modeler. I appreciate all your work so far. I'm kind of envious of your software.... I've looked around and the only compatible Mac software is almost $700. If UNA is any proof, the planking for Truant was rabbeted into the keel without the sweeping curves, especially in the aft sections. I have started to redraw your work as a basis for a model of my own. If you could part with them via the snail mail, I would be happy to send you a copy of my book "Building UNA:The boat too marvelous to be real…"

  24. #59
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    Robert Fish was a modeler. I appreciate all your work so far. I'm kind of envious of your software.... I've looked around and the only compatible Mac software is almost $700. If UNA is any proof, the planking for Truant was rabbeted into the keel without the sweeping curves, especially in the aft sections. I have started to redraw your work as a basis for a model of my own. If you could part with them via the snail mail, I would be happy to send you a copy of my book "Building UNA:The boat too marvelous to be real…"
    I'm not sure the stern of Truant would have been the same shape as Una's. The presentation model really does seem to show some hollow near the waterline on a wineglass stern, so I went with a shape closer to the Laura, the 1867 oyster sloop shown in post #51. Fish really was an interesting designer, and certainly not a one-trick pony. He even carried out modifications on Sappho, a huge racing schooner.

    I can massage the lines a bit more, but it would help to have more pictures of the presentation model. I don't know how accurate the model is, of course. That tiny cockpit looks more English than New York, for example, and if the picture really does show 5 people in it, I don't see how they could fit in a cockpit that couldn't be more than about 5' long.

    PM your address, I'll print out some lines for you.

  25. #60
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,675

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post

    I can massage the lines a bit more, but it would help to have more pictures of the presentation model. I don't know how accurate the model is, of course. That tiny cockpit looks more English than New York, for example, and if the picture really does show 5 people in it, I don't see how they could fit in a cockpit that couldn't be more than about 5' long.

    .
    The print does look a lot like the model. Now by scaling the model off the screen, which is something that one should not do, I get 8' 6" of cockpit length on a 22' LoD.
    The transom and the other lines look pretty damned close to those two photos except that the plan of the deck has more fullness abreast of the mast, implying a little more flare in the bow sections.
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 03-03-2019 at 06:05 PM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  26. #61
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Dedham, MA
    Posts
    921

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I'm not sure the stern of Truant would have been the same shape as Una's. The presentation model really does seem to show some hollow near the waterline on a wineglass stern, so I went with a shape closer to the Laura, the 1867 oyster sloop shown in post #51. Fish really was an interesting designer, and certainly not a one-trick pony. He even carried out modifications on Sappho, a huge racing schooner.

    I can massage the lines a bit more, but it would help to have more pictures of the presentation model. I don't know how accurate the model is, of course. That tiny cockpit looks more English than New York, for example, and if the picture really does show 5 people in it, I don't see how they could fit in a cockpit that couldn't be more than about 5' long.

    PM your address, I'll print out some lines for you.
    Check out the "Enchantress" 136' keeled ship(designed by Fish). Altered in London by adding 8 feet to the aft and widened the beam. It went from a poodle to a greyhound. See J.F. Loubat's "A Yachtsmans Hand Book".

  27. #62
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The print does look a lot like the model. Now by scaling the model off the screen, which is something that one should not do, I get 8' 6" of cockpit length on a 22' LoD.
    The transom and the other lines look pretty damned close to those two photos except that the plan of the deck has more fullness abreast of the mast, implying a little more flare in the bow sections.
    I'm working on the deck line. How far aft of the stem do you reckon the mast is?

  28. #63
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    If you have a copy of Small Yachts by C.P. Kunhardt, or your local library does, take a look at the rig of the keelboat Lark, which is about the same length as Truant overall, about the same beam, but shorter on the waterline, heavier, and with a lot less form stability. The rig looks very similar to the pictures of Truant. The main is 300 square feet, the jib 110, the topsail 110. That's a club topsail, might not be accurate for Truant. In the same book, look at the rig of Trident, a David Kirby design. The rig would be too big for Truant, but the details are perhaps closer to what you want.

  29. #64
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    The unusual thing about the rig in the pictures of Truant is that the rig is proportionately taller and narrower than later rigs. The short gaff would allow you to reef without moving the center of effort of the main. That's not true of the rig shown for Laura, the 1867 oyster sloop. But it does seem to be true of another oyster sloop that Chapelle documented, the V-bottomed sloop in figure 110, on page 307 of American Small Sailing Craft. Add a topmast or a taller mast for putting a topsail on, and you'd have pretty much the same rig as shown for Truant. The sloop in fig. 110 is 21' long and has about the same displacement as the lines I've drawn.

  30. #65
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,675

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I'm working on the deck line. How far aft of the stem do you reckon the mast is?
    6' 6".
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  31. #66
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Dedham, MA
    Posts
    921

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I'm working on the deck line. How far aft of the stem do you reckon the mast is?
    6 feet?

  32. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Dedham, MA
    Posts
    921

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    If you have a copy of Small Yachts by C.P. Kunhardt, or your local library does, take a look at the rig of the keelboat Lark, which is about the same length as Truant overall, about the same beam, but shorter on the waterline, heavier, and with a lot less form stability. The rig looks very similar to the pictures of Truant. The main is 300 square feet, the jib 110, the topsail 110. That's a club topsail, might not be accurate for Truant. In the same book, look at the rig of Trident, a David Kirby design. The rig would be too big for Truant, but the details are perhaps closer to what you want.
    Oddly enough, I do have a copy of that. I'll check it out.

  33. #68
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lindstrom, MN
    Posts
    2,568

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    I found the source of the drawing that I posted in Post 4. It was not Truant, it was Una.
    Link to 'original' drawing MotorBoating Feb 1945 page 52

    At least I'm not alone.
    Forest and Stream noted that the author mistook Una for Truant in "By Ocean Firth and Channel" p,92.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    I found the source of the drawing that I posted in Post 4. It was not Truant, it was Una.
    Link to 'original' drawing MotorBoating Feb 1945 page 52

    At least I'm not alone.
    Forest and Stream noted that the author mistook Una for Truant in "By Ocean Firth and Channel" p,92.
    Thanks, that was some interesting reading.

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,670

    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Truant with more flare in the bow, with an attempt to match the color of the presentation model.

    Truant, green in color 3-4-2019.jpg

    It occurs to me that the seating shown in Laura, the 1867 sloop, is only in the back of the cockpit. Presumably the front of the cockpit was for putting the oysters in. Apparently Fish decided to deck over the fish hold. That seems impractical to me, and as the type evolved, builders kept the workboat sized cockpit and just extended the benches farther forward, making for a roomy and comfortable cockpit.
    Last edited by johnw; 03-04-2019 at 03:05 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •