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Thread: Bothered and Bewildered…

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    I can't see from the picture where the forward end of the board is, but from the angle of the board, it looks to me like it would enter the hull a couple feet aft of the mast, which is where the board starts on the other examples we have.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I can't see from the picture where the forward end of the board is, but from the angle of the board, it looks to me like it would enter the hull a couple feet aft of the mast, which is where the board starts on the other examples we have.
    I printed the picture, then drew both the lower edge of the board and the keel on the print. That allowed me to determine where they crossed allowing a measurement to be made.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #108
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I printed the picture, then drew both the lower edge of the board and the keel on the print. That allowed me to determine where they crossed allowing a measurement to be made.
    So, how far aft of the mast should the centerboard case start?

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    So, how far aft of the mast should the centerboard case start?
    It looks like the case begins a little less than a third inside of the coaming. Then decreases in height to accommodate the decking. Ending about two and a quarter feet from the centerline of the mast.

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    I guess I go back to look at the Comet board, which sticks out of its case quite a lot as does Annie's board. So far I think the size maybe a little small.
    Ben Fuller
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  6. #111
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    So, how far aft of the mast should the centerboard case start?
    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    It looks like the case begins a little less than a third inside of the coaming. Then decreases in height to accommodate the decking. Ending about two and a quarter feet from the centerline of the mast.
    Could be. Allowing for the pivot etc forward of where I measured the board disappearing into the keel at 10' and the mast at 6' 6" from the stem we have 3' 6" less the bury of the board and its pivot.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #112
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    I guess I go back to look at the Comet board, which sticks out of its case quite a lot as does Annie's board. So far I think the size maybe a little small.
    Agreed.

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    Pamrapo, N.J was originally called Salterville, NJ. It was incorporated into Bayonne in the late 1860s Look for all the petroleum tanks- that used to be the waterfront for shipbuilding.
    that's kindof an amazing coincidence.. my family has been in that area for three or four generations.. my dad once said he knew of an old wooden boat named 'Una' moored in what was the military ocean terminal there... i wonder if it had anything to do with capt. Fish...

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by coelcanth View Post
    that's kindof an amazing coincidence.. my family has been in that area for three or four generations.. my dad once said he knew of an old wooden boat named 'Una' moored in what was the military ocean terminal there... i wonder if it had anything to do with capt. Fish...
    The original UNA left the US in 1850 and never returned. Probably not the same boat.

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    of course, i know that.. just a coincidence really..
    but maybe telling that at least the name seems to have stuck around the exact geographic area.
    i'll have to ask more about it...

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by coelcanth View Post
    of course, i know that.. just a coincidence really..
    but maybe telling that at least the name seems to have stuck around the exact geographic area.
    i'll have to ask more about it...
    Famous names, and even not very famous names, tend to get re-used.

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    I think we'll have better luck placing the centerboard in the right place if we can picture the rig. Here's a first effort, with no topmast, 400 square feet:

    Truant rig without topsail.jpg

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I think we'll have better luck placing the centerboard in the right place if we can picture the rig. Here's a first effort, with no topmast, 400 square feet:

    Truant rig without topsail.jpg
    I am confident that the aft end of the cb that I scaled from the model is correct, the forward end slightly less confident, but using the rake of the leading edge it should be possible to map from the photo of the model onto the profile accurately.
    From my knowledge of UK boats built by yards local to me in the 19th C balance was more by luck than by judgement, and some boats were extremely hard mouthed.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #119
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I am confident that the aft end of the cb that I scaled from the model is correct, the forward end slightly less confident, but using the rake of the leading edge it should be possible to map from the photo of the model onto the profile accurately.
    From my knowledge of UK boats built by yards local to me in the 19th C balance was more by luck than by judgement, and some boats were extremely hard mouthed.
    It was like that on this side of the pond as well.

  15. #120
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Second try. I've moved the end of the centerboard seven feet from the stern, increased the luff length, and since the pictures make it look like Truant carried a balanced jib, I've drawn her that way.

    Truant with balanced jib 3-15-2019 4-03-36 PM 870x848.bmp.jpg

    Sail area is now up to about 480, which seems excessive until you consider the later boats...

  16. #121
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Yes to the balanced jib, but the illustration brings the foot down much closer to the deck.


    The jib halyard block looks to be a tad closer to the hounds as well.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  17. #122
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Yes to the balanced jib, but the illustration brings the foot down much closer to the deck.


    The jib halyard block looks to be a tad closer to the hounds as well.
    Because who needs to see where they're going.

    What about the centerboard position, does that look right? And isn't the whole rig a bit much for a boat with a beam of little more than 7'?

    By the way, I wonder whether the balanced jib was so that you could release the downhaul on the jib boom and pull the jib back into the boat without having to go out on a narrow plank bowsprit without any footropes.

  18. #123
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Because who needs to see where they're going.

    What about the centerboard position, does that look right? And isn't the whole rig a bit much for a boat with a beam of little more than 7'?

    By the way, I wonder whether the balanced jib was so that you could release the downhaul on the jib boom and pull the jib back into the boat without having to go out on a narrow plank bowsprit without any footropes.
    Look at the image.
    If the artist had got it wrong the editor will have been flamed on the letters page.
    The only info that I have on the CB is by measuring and scaling from the model. Did you use the dimension that I posted?
    The balanced jib is still used on the Norfolk Broads. I think that it was about setting a flat sail that worked on and off the wind.
    I doubt that it was a plank bowsprit, I think that might be a later innovation. They would have handed the sail by hauling the leech down from the foredeck. They may have then sorted everything out with the aid of a row boat tender. She is a racing machine after all, practicality comes way down the list.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #124
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Look at the image.
    If the artist had got it wrong the editor will have been flamed on the letters page.
    The only info that I have on the CB is by measuring and scaling from the model. Did you use the dimension that I posted?
    The balanced jib is still used on the Norfolk Broads. I think that it was about setting a flat sail that worked on and off the wind.
    I doubt that it was a plank bowsprit, I think that might be a later innovation. They would have handed the sail by hauling the leech down from the foredeck. They may have then sorted everything out with the aid of a row boat tender. She is a racing machine after all, practicality comes way down the list.
    Hey, I didn't criticize you, it's just that I've tried racing an old-style boat with the tack almost down on the deck, and I kept having to ask my crew what was coming up.

    Yes, I used your dimensions, end of the CB 7' from the stern and mast 6.5' from the bow. That's the leading edge of the mast, right?

  20. #125
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    As for plank bowsprits, remember, the workboats often sailed as sloops in the summer, as catboats in the winter, so that they had a smaller winter rig without having another set of sails. That meant there was a second mast step, which could be concealed by the plank bowsprit in the summer. Look at Laura, built 15 years later:



    What reason have we to believe that Truant wouldn't have had a plank bowsprit?

  21. #126
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  22. #127
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Hey, I didn't criticize you, it's just that I've tried racing an old-style boat with the tack almost down on the deck, and I kept having to ask my crew what was coming up.

    Yes, I used your dimensions, end of the CB 7' from the stern and mast 6.5' from the bow. That's the leading edge of the mast, right?
    The image is what the image is. I suppose that back then they were more worried about maximising sail area than crew convenience.
    I have just remeasured from a bigger print of the model. 6.2' from stem to mast CL. That is 6' 2 1/2".
    Plank bowsprit? The model clearly shows a solid round spar, and she is not a workboat with a "portable" rig.
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 03-16-2019 at 05:44 AM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  23. #128
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Do any of you have access to the Society for Nautical Research Journal's article by Rob Napier, Sandbaggers in General, Cruiser in Particular Vol 3 No 1, March 1989. Best discussion of a small sandbagger rig out there. Jib was set flying, no headstay which is the way we rigged the Comet copy, Puffin. As I recall. Annie at Mystic had a set up so you could slack the headstay from the foredeck to hank on the jib then set it up with a 3 part tackle dead ended on the stem. If you find my WB article you'll see the pic. These rigs now that I look at them are shorter and longer than what is so far drawn. However, the model doesn't show the typical plank bowsprit or boomkin platform. These boats were based in shallow water clubs and there would have been no problem wading out to hank on a jib.
    Ben Fuller
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  24. #129
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The image is what the image is. I suppose that back then they were more worried about maximising sail area than crew convenience.
    I have just remeasured from a bigger print of the model. 6.2' from stem to mast CL. That is 6' 2 1/2".
    Plank bowsprit? The model clearly shows a solid round spar, and she is not a workboat with a "portable" rig.
    I had forgotten this image, practically broadside on and confirming the other bow quarter view.


    Scaling from this image is not as accurate as scaling from the photo of the model, the mast comes out a little further aft at 6' 9". However the bowsprit comes out at 4' 9" outboard, with the jib foot at 13' 6" extending 2' 10" past the bowsprit. The jib may be incorrectly scaled as it will not be sheeted in to midships so needs to be tweaked in proportion to suit. However with 11' from mast to bowsprit end a 13' 6 foot would just work.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  25. #130
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Nice image. The foot on some of these older designs did't run horizontally like we are used to seeing, rather the tack was right down and the boom lifted up. Couple of good things: less chance of dipping it in the water rolling downwind and clearing at least some of the crew's head. On my little ducker the sail is cut so I barely have to duck when coming about or jibing. I sort of see that in these engravings. The idea of a jib set flying and no headstay would be totally practical. On Puffin/ Comet you could pull the tack out maybe 2/3 of the way on the bowsprit, just until you would be about to loose control, then hoist, then pull out the rest of the way. If we wanted to do it fast and neat we could stop the sail to the jib boom and haul it out all the way.
    Ben Fuller
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  26. #131
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Nice image. The foot on some of these older designs did't run horizontally like we are used to seeing, rather the tack was right down and the boom lifted up. Couple of good things: less chance of dipping it in the water rolling downwind and clearing at least some of the crew's head. On my little ducker the sail is cut so I barely have to duck when coming about or jibing. I sort of see that in these engravings. The idea of a jib set flying and no headstay would be totally practical. On Puffin/ Comet you could pull the tack out maybe 2/3 of the way on the bowsprit, just until you would be about to loose control, then hoist, then pull out the rest of the way. If we wanted to do it fast and neat we could stop the sail to the jib boom and haul it out all the way.
    The horizontal or even drooping boom is an artifact of rules that measure sail area. Since they measure the spars rather than the sails, you can get a longer leach and more area by setting the clew lower. Having the tack on the deck might give you some endplate effect, but I can tell you from experience, it makes the skipper a lot more nervous in traffic.

    By the way, Ben, your description makes me wonder, did you use a lanyard or downhaul to pull the tack of the jib out on the bowsprit with Comet?

  27. #132
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I had forgotten this image, practically broadside on and confirming the other bow quarter view.


    Scaling from this image is not as accurate as scaling from the photo of the model, the mast comes out a little further aft at 6' 9". However the bowsprit comes out at 4' 9" outboard, with the jib foot at 13' 6" extending 2' 10" past the bowsprit. The jib may be incorrectly scaled as it will not be sheeted in to midships so needs to be tweaked in proportion to suit. However with 11' from mast to bowsprit end a 13' 6 foot would just work.
    What do you get for the length of the luff, gaff, and boom?

  28. #133
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    I'm thinking I may have made the rig too tall.

    truant rig, too tall maybe 3-16-2019.jpg
    Last edited by johnw; 03-16-2019 at 02:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    What do you get for the length of the luff, gaff, and boom?
    Nothing reliable, as they are not parallel to the cl of the hull. If she were not heeling and the sails were not filled and so foreshortened compared to the hull it would be OK. However If you made a cardboard profile of the hull and set it up with a mast, heeled it and swung it out of the broadside, you could use your judgement, or even a camera to recreate the mast height. Then make card sails and do the same, to recreate the image you can average between to engravings and get close. Similar to the process that I used when I carved a half model to capture the shape from those three old photos in post #46.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #135
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I'm thinking I may have made the rig too tall.

    Attachment 33277
    Image not showing, however I do think that the mast in post #126, and the bowsprit are over egged now that I have seen the second engraving again.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  31. #136
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Here's a version with a shorter rig:

    Truant, shorter rig.jpg

    To my eye, that looks a lot more practical for a boat with a beam of little more than 7'.
    Last edited by johnw; 03-16-2019 at 02:45 PM.

  32. #137
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Here's a version with a shorter rig:

    Attachment 33278

    To my eye, that looks a lot more practical for a boat with a beam of little more than 7'.
    It is happening again. All I get is an Attachment 33278
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  33. #138
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Image not showing, however I do think that the mast in post #126, and the bowsprit are over egged now that I have seen the second engraving again.
    When Picasa saves something, it will sometimes puts bmp in the name as well as jpeg. Think I've fixed it.
    Last edited by johnw; 03-16-2019 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I'm thinking I may have made the rig too tall.

    truant rig, too tall maybe 3-16-2019.jpg
    I'm making a paper print to try for a comparison.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #140
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Truant(2).jpg
    The foreshortening of the mast heights due to heel are trivial, but on the gaff and boom may be slightly larger as they are "winged out".
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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