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Thread: Bothered and Bewildered…

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Pretty nearly there.
    How does it compare in the oblique 3d rendering with the two shots of the model and with the engraving?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  2. #72
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  3. #73
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Just so

    But in that case the skeg would have been parallel sided. A true appendage.
    I would still pull the buttocks down more at the third station forward of the transom.
    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Stern looks about right:

    stern of Truant 3-4-2019.jpg

    I'm finding it difficult to get the right angle on the bow:

    Truant fore quarter view 3-4-2019 6-23-53 PM 1666x464.bmp.jpg
    The stem looks shorter. More shear needed forward?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #74
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    I found the source of the drawing that I posted in Post 4. It was not Truant, it was Una.
    Link to 'original' drawing MotorBoating Feb 1945 page 52

    At least I'm not alone.
    Forest and Stream noted that the author mistook Una for Truant in "By Ocean Firth and Channel" p,92.
    Dave- I recognized UNA immediately, since I just finished the build in 2018. The photos I posted are the recreation of UNA.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Truant with more flare in the bow, with an attempt to match the color of the presentation model.

    Attachment 32393

    It occurs to me that the seating shown in Laura, the 1867 sloop, is only in the back of the cockpit. Presumably the front of the cockpit was for putting the oysters in. Apparently Fish decided to deck over the fish hold. That seems impractical to me, and as the type evolved, builders kept the workboat sized cockpit and just extended the benches farther forward, making for a roomy and comfortable cockpit.
    Fish intended Truant as a regatta competitor in England. A racer. No need for storage forward, thus the covered deck. Una's forward hatch is quite useful as an anchor storage.
    Last edited by G.Sherman; 03-05-2019 at 11:48 AM.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    The sandbaggers were racers, too. They had larger cockpits to accommodate the larger crews needed for racing. Truant was not intended for shifting ballast, but she could have carried the crew in a better spot for stability, and placing ballast under that foredeck must have been a real pain. I think the long foredeck wasn't copied because it turned out not to be all that practical.
    Last edited by johnw; 03-05-2019 at 01:27 PM.

  7. #77
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  8. #78
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Okay, here's the higher bow:

    truant, forequarter view 3-5-2019.jpg
    Good, how does it compare to the photo of the model when viewed from slightly more above that eye line? Rotated slightly starboard down.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #79
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    To confuse things even more, some of the race boats of that era had two mast steps.....
    Ben Fuller
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  10. #80
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    To confuse things even more, some of the race boats of that era had two mast steps.....

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    The cat rigged hikers on the Delaware used outriggers for the shrouds. Masts in the area of 30' twice the length of the boat. None of them survived and indeed now that I am back into my Delaware boat data I don't think many went for more than a decade. Boats were launched down a ramp on a car without the mast in place. With a crewman in place to guide the mast, it could be lowered down from the pier adjacent to the ramp. There is a story of a boat being shipped to Baltimore for a challenge race with a local boat. The Fishtowners couldn't get any action. Then the crewman who was in the boat stepped out, the boat capsized, "and the money flowed". The Delaware folks returned home with heavier pockets.
    Ben Fuller
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  12. #82
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Illustrator Noodling- Am I close???



  13. #83
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    Illustrator Noodling- Am I close???


    Couple of things to change.
    The keel should taper in fair curves, not straight lines and corners. Never a miter at the keel stem joint, they would have used a grown crook for the stem, and added an apron to its top half.
    If you have Chapelle Small Sailing Craft, take a lead from the Connecticut River drag boat, fig 74
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 03-06-2019 at 02:55 PM. Reason: Typing with thumbs
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #84
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Gentlemen, I have absolutely nothing of value to add to this discussion but I do want to say that has been interesting to follow.
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Still noodling....


  16. #86
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    Illustrator Noodling- Am I close???


    Mostly right. The waterlines look wrong and the centerboard should extend farther forward. Also, I noticed that I was letting the boat get fat, so I brought the beam back down. You'll have a hard copy of my lines with the changes Nick proposed in a few days.

    Truant, shallow bow 3-6-2019.jpg

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Archibald Cary Smith apprenticed with Captain Robert "Bob" Fish at his shipyard in Pamrapo, New Jersey.

    Another interesting fact: Fish as a boat designer was considered second only to George Steers during the early 1850s.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Fish was an interesting guy. He designed a sharpie for racing which was nothing like the later racing sharpies, and had a much lighter displacement than the boats she raced against.

    The lines for Luckey:



    The 'waterlines' are actually where the lifts in the model separate. Like most sharpies, Luckey sailed with the stem trimmed just above the water. I have found a contemporary picture of her sailing, which of course is a drawing rather than a photo:


  19. #89
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Mostly right. The waterlines look wrong and the centerboard should extend farther forward. Also, I noticed that I was letting the boat get fat, so I brought the beam back down. You'll have a hard copy of my lines with the changes Nick proposed in a few days.

    Truant, shallow bow 3-6-2019.jpg
    Just how far off is the centerboard trunk? When you say "extend" do you mean make the board longer or move the entire trunk forward? I've glued up the keeled am about to cut the slot for the centerboard trunk.



  20. #90
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    Just how far off is the centerboard trunk? When you say "extend" do you mean make the board longer or move the entire trunk forward? I've glued up the keeled am about to cut the slot for the centerboard trunk.


    Knowing the length of the keel, you should be able to scale it from a print of this image.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  21. #91
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    Just how far off is the centerboard trunk? When you say "extend" do you mean make the board longer or move the entire trunk forward? I've glued up the keeled am about to cut the slot for the centerboard trunk.


    I'm thinking the board would be longer, and pivot from a lower angle, both of which would move the center of lateral resistance farther forward.

    I may be a bit late mentioning this, but I've been rethinking the stem. Fish did several designs with the stem at 90 degrees to the keel, and with such a shallow keel, there would be very little reverse on this design, sort of like this:

    Truant, shallow bow, reversed stem 3-11-2019.jpg

    The resulting hull would look like it has a straight stem from the fore quarter view from above:

    Truant reversed stem front quarter view 3-11-2019.jpg

    Maybe instead of waiting for another set of lines, you could download the jpeg of these new lines.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    I finally did what I should have at the beginning, and laid out the lines as if for a lift model:

    Truant, lines as if for a lift model 3-11-20190.jpg

    When I rotate it back to sailing trim, it looks like this:

    Truant reconstruction in sailing trim 3-11-2019.jpg

    The bow and stern end up with the same amount of rake, and in the same direction.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    One minor tweak. Straighten the sheer forward, flattening its curvature. It will to my eye improve both the profile and the body plan shear line.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #94
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    One minor tweak. Straighten the sheer forward, flattening its curvature. It will to my eye improve both the profile and the body plan shear line.
    Shoot, Nick, you're the one who got me to add sheer forward!

  25. #95
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  26. #96
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    That is better. The idea was to remove the slight dip in the shear on the forward body plan.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  27. #97
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    Archibald Cary Smith apprenticed with Captain Robert "Bob" Fish at his shipyard in Pamrapo, New Jersey.

    Another interesting fact: Fish as a boat designer was considered second only to George Steers during the early 1850s.
    where exactly was Pamrapo, New Jersey ?? doesn't seem like it still exists...

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by coelcanth View Post
    where exactly was Pamrapo, New Jersey ?? doesn't seem like it still exists...
    Pamrapo, N.J was originally called Salterville, NJ. It was incorporated into Bayonne in the late 1860s Look for all the petroleum tanks- that used to be the waterfront for shipbuilding.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    I'm conflicted? Which one is right?


  30. #100
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    I'm conflicted? Which one is right?

    Of the three the 187" longer looks closebr /> Even with the pivot lower and the front edge lower the original looks too short.
    Did you try mesuring a print of the photo as suggested?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  31. #101
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    What happens when you put a board in it which sticks out when it is up as seems common in baggers? Can you proportition the length of the trunk from the model? Cockpit stops at x and the trunk extends another y feet.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    closebr /> (What the hell does this mean?) I arrived at the original by measuring. That's why I don't trust me.

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    I think the longest one is nearer to the mark. The thing is, the opening at the top of the case is too far aft for a shorter board to work without a lot of lee helm. Look at how far forward the centerboard is in Laura, the 1867 sloop with a similar rig:



    Also note the shape of the case, which makes me think the centerboard was shaped more like a Beetle Cat board.



    I would imagine the top of the case would have been right up against the deck, again, like a Beetle Cat. If the boat gets knocked down, a case even with the deck will mean that you can bail the boat without the centerboard case allowing water in. Recovering a Beetle Cat from a capsize is difficult, but not impossible, because of this.

    What Fish did with Truant was deck over the part of the boat that would have been used as a hold for oysters, had it been used for oyster fishing. Later designers kept the cockpit as large as it was on the work boats, and extended the benches forward into what would have been the hold on a workboar.
    Last edited by johnw; 03-12-2019 at 01:51 PM.

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    I'm conflicted? Which one is right?

    Of the three the 18" longer looks closer. Even with the pivot lower and the front edge lower the original looks too short.
    Did you try measuring a print of the photo as suggested?
    I get dimensions of 7' 0" to the aft end of the board, and the leading edge disappearing into the keel 12' 0" forward both from the stern post.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #105
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    Default Re: Bothered and Bewildered…

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    closebr /> (What the hell does this mean?) I arrived at the original by measuring. That's why I don't trust me.
    See later post, that seems to have been posted in error.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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