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Thread: Gunter vs balance lug performance

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    I would think you need to consider sail plan in conjunction with hull design and center board profile, ie planning versus non-planing hull, and so forth. As the OP is building a Gannet and asked about performance I assume he is looking to go fast. I am also building a Gannet and placed my bet on the Gunter option, time will tell how it works out.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    Hi,
    I sail lug with jib. The difference from balanced lug is fixed tack of the main.
    I sail with the main only if alone or with inexperienced crew member. I can reef main and rise loose boom - this opens scenery from cockpit and eliminates head injuries :-). Properly set jib ads performance - in low and strong winds.
    The combination of lug and jib is only possible with fixed main tack to avoid hassle with jib "hooking" on the boom.
    Regards,
    Jonas
    Chall5475.jpg

  3. #38
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    Austria
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    On my "Spike" (Oughtred Design 12 ft skiff) I am sailing with a balanced lug.
    I do not have experience with gunter-rigs but for sprit-rigs.
    Iain Oughred wrote about the three rig-types in book from Nic Comton: "A Life in Wooden Boats".

    Comparing with sprit-rigs I had on my other boats, the blanced lug performs better in stronger winds, in particular before the wind. See my video sailing Spike with light winds before the wind:

    Hay mas tiempo que vida!

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    I'm a bit surprised that sprit sails are not mentioned more.
    I'm a bit biased by the fact that there are almost no luggers in my waters, but it is a fact that a sprit sail will be set in 10 seconds or so, with a stayed mast a couple of minutes more.

    /Mats

    Elected Swedish Yourneyman of the Year 2019

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    We have a folding gunter rig on our Oughtred Fulmar. On the positive side the mast and yard can be stored inside the boat when trailering, when reefed that yard drops lower reducing weight aloft, it seems to point as high as similar boats that are bermudan rigged. The down side - the mast is deck-stepped without a tabernacle and needs two people to step, keeping the roughly parallel relationship between the yard and mast is hindered by using a gaff harness (as drawn in the plans) but not using the harness makes reefing more difficult especially in rough conditions. Perhaps the Fulmar is somewhat over powered, but it sure goes like stink.

  6. #41
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    Jun 2013
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    Quote Originally Posted by mohsart View Post
    I'm a bit surprised that sprit sails are not mentioned more.
    I'm a bit biased by the fact that there are almost no luggers in my waters, but it is a fact that a sprit sail will be set in 10 seconds or so, with a stayed mast a couple of minutes more.

    /Mats
    With respect, the time taken to step any rig surely depends on many factors other than its basic design. For example, a stayed rig may be stepped very quickly; you may only need to do up one extra shackle compared to an unstayed rig.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    An unstayed lug rig has one significant safety advantage. If you get caught in a sudden gust and a capsize is imminent, you can let go the sheet and let the sail go straight downwind. With no stays in the way, nothing is damaged. (One caution - make sure your sheet is long enough that you don't lose the end. Don't ask me how I know this.)
    I will beg you for advice, your reply will be concise, and I will listen very nicely and then go out and do exactly what I want! (Apologies to Lerner and Lowe.)

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    I suppose with Iain drew the big gunter rig with jib, it was for helmsman and crew, so the boat could be sailed upright with the crew in a flying trapeze. When sailing alone it might quikly overpower you. The Gannet has a planing hull so a big rig makes sense here. I grew up sailing gunter rigged boats and I find sails are easier to trim right with it but of course there are les components with a balanced lugsail. Imo setting a balanced lugsail is not as easy as most people think and some sailmakers don't reinforce the luff. I use dyneema for it except sails under 5 m2, and the lugsail on a 12 voets Jol, (International 12?) is reinforced with a ss wire.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    And sometimes you can press a standing lug into service as a balanced lug. I took my Wooden Boat Store lug (designed for the Shellback Dinghy) off my outrigger canoe and flew with it to Texas to rig a borrowed 8 foot scow. I found it worked better on this boat as a balanced lug; even reefed, it got this Puddle Duck to Windward. I am wondering if a gunter reefed down would do as well, because of the peak blowing off? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWT3H4wIbdk -- Wade
    Last edited by wtarzia; 04-26-2019 at 12:34 PM.

  10. #45
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    Default

    Gunter just doesn't look right.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Gunter just doesn't look right.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    Hummm
    Very much in the eye of the beholder..

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    4 cornered sails are visually more interesting according to Annie Hill. I agree. Frank
    www.oarandsail.nl

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Gunter just doesn't look right.
    A gunter looks right when it is set right. It seems that it is hard to get rid of the unsightly crease where the heel of the yard levers out on to the WW side of the sail a bit because of play in the system. It would seem that a very rigid way of attaching yard to mast would be needed to fix that.

    But perhaps the thing is like the situation of the balanced lug? In other words, in the BL the aback-part of the sail looks worse than it actually is in performance, and for the gunter, perhaps the same for the crease?

    My only gunter experience is the river skiff at the Mystic Museum boatshed, and evey time I sail it I think 'they could tighten something and reduce that crease" and maybe so, but I could always make lots of short tacks to windward against the slight river current to get somewhere, so no real harm done? -- Wade

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    Some years ago I thought I could settle the matter: I had 2 clients, both building a Cal. Yawl, one ordered a balanced lug mainsail and a triangular mizzen and the other one a gunter main with jib. Unfortunedly the gunter man was not a keen sailor and the balanced lugger developed health problems, when he stopped smoking.
    Another client builds the BJ17, a Nigel Irens designed balanced lug yawl, and he used to race her with other boats on handicap I guess. He thought highly of the lug rig and claimed it is great for going to windward. But then he developed a bermuda main with a square top and now he prefers that. check www.jachtbouwbartjanbats.nl BJ17
    Frank
    www.oarandsail.nl

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    4 cornered sails are visually more interesting according to Annie Hill. I agree. Frank
    www.oarandsail.nl
    But I've found quotes in old books and magazines from the time when the bermudan rig came in, saying that it looked much nicer than the gaff or gunter.

    It's a bit like saying that someone prefers red wine to white wine - a completely personal taste.

  16. #51
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    Feb 2019
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    Narellen, NSW, Australia
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    Well I'm nobody's sailor but I've just built the Iain Oughtred Tammie Norrie 15 footer and I chose the gunter sloop rig.

    My understanding of the reason for gunter over Bermudan is that the mast is shorter and will fit in the boat for trailering. It would be very inconvenient to have a longer mast as required for a Bermudan sloop.

    Yes the stayed rig takes a little longer to set up but I'd say only about 5 minutes in standing and staying the mast, work with it, practice with it at home and you'll see the bits you can improve and it becomes quite easy. I can quite easily handle the 4.1 metre mast on my own but it is Sitka spruce.

    As far as sailing goes I have never sailed before but took her out single handed in very unstable wind and handled it ok, again get used to how it all works before you go out. I have not yet had to put a reef in while on the water but set up well it's easy to do in a minute or two.

    I had a crease in the main from the clew to the throat when I first set her up but by shortening the gaff span I was able to get a little more height out of the throat and the peak haly'ds and haven't seen it since. The gaff in a gunter sloop has to go near vertical so there isn't a lot of gaff swinging out with the wind like there would be in a normal gaff rig. As for spilling a wind gust on the beam I find by letting the main sheet run there is more than enough travel in the sail to spill the wind but another trick I am yet to try is to simply steer into the gust which also reduces the sails exposure to it.

    I found her easy to sail and have a great time in her. I have never sailed against anything similar so can't compare performance but she does point well to windward.

    sail15.jpgsail16.jpgsail7.jpgsail17.jpg

  17. #52
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    Default

    She looks fabulous too. Well done!

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve TN 15 View Post
    Well I'm nobody's sailor but I've just built the Iain Oughtred Tammie Norrie 15 footer and I chose the gunter sloop rig.

    sail7.jpg
    Nice work on the boat.

    So is there a definitive difference between a gunter and a gaff rig?
    I always thought the gunter meant the gaff was hard against the mast.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    As I said I'm nobody's sailor but my understanding is that the gunter is used as an extension of the mast but it can't be hard against it for rigging purposes. Beyond that I simply put my faith in the expertise of Iain Oughtred, that's how he designed her, that's his sail pattern and she works.

    A normal gaff is at a much lower angle than the gunter.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    The balance lug reefs OK. So a modest increase in the sail area would bring the performances more into line.

    Also there is a considerable cost advantage in the direction of the simpler rig. Two sails are always more expensive than one of the sail area and then need all the extra fittings.

    I used to do quotes for fitting and sail packages rigs before starting to design boats so I know there is a significant cost difference.

    Best wishes to all
    MIK

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    ... and rigging time ... you will be so far ahead of the gunter sloop by the time they get in the water they will never catch up

    Remembering too that Oughtred boats are a pretty optimised platform so they make any of his range of rig choices look good.
    Last edited by Boatmik; 06-10-2019 at 11:26 PM.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    ... and rigging time ... you will be so far ahead of the gunter sloop by the time they get in the water they will never catch up

    Remembering too that Oughtred boats are a pretty optimised platform so they make any of his range of rig choices look good.
    With respect Mik, rigging time is a question of preperation. My Oughtred gunter sloop travels with everything ready. Sails on the mast and spars, just shove the mast up and secure the forestay. As for the creases in the sail mentioned about the heel of the gunter spar, I don't have them. Rigging at the slip is really a matter of a few minutes. More time is spent relocating the trailer and fielding questions from onlookers...

  23. #58
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    May 2019
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I've never warmed to the gunter rig - ever since as a kid sailing mirrors.
    It strikes me as a bermudan rig pointlessly complicated. (unless you have bridges to negotiate maybe).

    Lug is nice and simple. Unstayed; easy to rig quickly.
    Stepping the mast for trailer-sailing is much easier with a gunter rig than with a Bermudan. I find it points better than a lug or gaff setup as well.
    It has become my favorite rig and is the most versatile sloop rig I have sailed.
    And it's fast. I have a 20' strip and smoke 22' plastic Tanzers with ease...and my mainsail is 57 years old!

  24. #59
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    May 2010
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    Central, NJ USA
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    Comments on this rig: standing lug(?) with small jib and boomless. +'s, -'s? I'm a trailer-sailer, mostly small lakes, limited time, would take longer trips to bigger waters for a week's vacation. I believe this is a Lowell Surf Dory



    00a0a_bI6wCF315HU_1200x900.jpg
    00x0x_hlZLHtc4UHv_1200x900.jpg
    00Z0Z_jOWl7mWocsN_1200x900.jpg
    Last edited by Alan Cohen; 06-18-2019 at 07:23 PM.

  25. #60
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    Jun 2003
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    Default Re: Gunter vs balance lug performance

    I have built this sliding gunter rig. It works very well and is foolproof. The yards are fixed to the masts with metal fittings top and bottom and they slide up and down, always remaining parallel to the masts
    (I was given the US Navy drawings to fabricate the parts for a replica yawl boat and collaborated with a local sailmaker after the spars and fittings were made)


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