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Thread: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

  1. #1
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    Default A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    A few days ago there was an airplane crash in California. A 6-8 passenger twin engine private plane went down. Pilot (only person on board) killed and four on the ground died.
    Reports say that the plane broke up in the air, scattering plane parts over a several block area of the neighborhood.
    What would cause a plane to break up in mid-air without a collision or explosion?
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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    What would cause a plane to break up in mid-air without a collision or explosion?
    g's

    propeller and or engine failure leading to excessive vibration, broken engine mounts

    inappropriate or lack of maintenance, corrosion, missing or mis-torqued fasteners

    bird strike
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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    And G's could be caused by anything. Stuck control surface, wing failure, tail failure, pilot error or even pilot incapacitation.
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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    And G's could be caused by anything.
    twin engine spin
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    twin engine spin
    yes, missed that.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Poor maintenance, overstressing the airframe, engine disintegration.... possibilities are many, current info scant.

    Antonio Pastini, 75, of Gardnerville, Nevada, was flying home after visiting his daughter and granddaughter on Sunday when his Cessna began coming apart and debris slammed into a Yorba Linda home, which caught fire. Four people inside the house died.

    The cause of the crash is under investigation.

    In 1980, Pastini lost his license for 30 days after Davis found that his plane was behind on inspections, carried only an expired temporary registration and was "unairworthy" because of a hydraulic fluid leak from a break and other problems, the Times said.
    SOURCE (LINK)

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    well, that is probably the cause. All of the above caused by poor maintenance.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Plane was 31 years old. According to this, he may have just bought it. It says "registration pending".
    http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/A.../4/N414RS.shtm
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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    vibration coupled with deferred maintance is my guess. I was surprised to learned that there's a sizable number of planes in use today, that have not had an annual within 12months, and in some cases more that than one annual missed.-this from the faa. The pilot was reported to have a false police i.d. card in his wallet- someone who enjoyed flying below the radar?
    Last edited by the_gr8t_waldo; 02-09-2019 at 01:07 PM.

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Years ago I worked an inflight airframe failure case involving a Beech Bonanza. The forces on the plane exceeded its structure and tail assembly came off, the plane went nose down immediately and the wings folded up. Four people on the plane died
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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Lots of people let their car servicing lapse without any issue, and many people fly on a budget, but cutting costs on plane service is just not a good idea......you cant just coast into the hard shoulder and walk when something goes wrong. Unfortunate for the people on the ground.

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    This KC-130 broke up in the air about 30 miles east of here on July 10, 2017.



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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Not forgetting the fire-bombing C130 that the wings fell off.
    Posted on here several times.

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    This is where the main part of the fuselage of the above KC-130 landed.

    KC-130 crash site 03.jpg

    KC-130 crash site 02.jpg

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Age of pilot. Too old to fly by himself and he was a known lier. I hope he and his estate is sued to obivian.

    Pastini disregarded airspace rules and posed "a potential threat to himself, his passenger and other users of the system," wrote an administrative law judge, Jerrell R. Davis.
    In 1980, Pastini lost his license for 30 days after Davis found that his plane was behind on inspections, carried only an expired temporary registration and was "unairworthy" because of a hydraulic fluid leak from a break and other problems, the Times said.
    The Times said the FAA confirmed that Isaacson was Pastini. The agency said he submitted two name changes to the FAA: first in 1991 from Jordan Albert Isaacson to Jordan Ike Aaron, then in 2008 to Antonio Peter Pastini.




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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    ^ not this again

    the biggest problem in america, old white men
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    ^ not this again

    the biggest problem in america, old white men
    old white men lie and take everything... they seem to seek to f$+& the world. This POS I am going to guess believed the rules didn’t apply to him.

    you should see some of the old asses with big trawlers going through a fleet of low board sailboats and cutting in front of the high speed ferries. The difference between these captions is they have a double in thier hand.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 02-09-2019 at 02:28 PM.
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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Side note: just how much does an annual inspection cost?
    "Many a time freedom has been rolled back - and always for the same sorry reason: fear." - Molly Ivins

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Tactical jets have similar issues , we lost a lot of Prowler’s in the 80’s . Crew error , possible wing fatigue , course the pilot MIGHT have been trying to “tear the wings off” doing ACM (Aircraft Combat Maneuvering ) Prolly spelled wrong , so keep your seats teachers;-)) , wing fatigue lead to re-winging the A-6 and the EA-6B most likely had wing root issues , the navy started to greatly limit training that required over 4 G’s . Prowlers where highly unlikely to EVER have to evade enemy aircraft or missiles , as they are a stand off aircraft , they can do their job from outside of the “lions mouth”, so ACM isn’t really some thing they do, or are highly unlikely yo ever do!
    We do know before G limits where in place , Prowler’s pulled G’s , but the ECM POD’s didn’t , to the POD broke off the bomb rack and broke the vertical stabilizer off one jet as the tail hit the POD. Or out board wing.

    Planes and jets really don’t want to stay in the air, so any number of things can cause them to crash.
    What goes up , must come down.
    No one lives forever !

  20. #20
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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    Side note: just how much does an annual inspection cost?
    It’s prolly more about what will the inspection could reveal , than what the inspection costs. Once a airframe is in question it’s grounded, at least on paper , so IF it’s not inspected , it’s NOT a problem.
    Like a criminal with a gun , sure it’s illegal to own one , BUT IF no one knows , is it still a crime?
    Kind of like illegal alien , if they don’t get caught , it’s NOT a crime. Right?

    So a un inspected A/C same thing , driver without a license , all the same right?

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    Side note: just how much does an annual inspection cost?
    I've two friends with small aircraft. Although it was many years ago, I believe they said an annual inspection can cost as much as $15,000. Probably depends on what has to be torn apart and reassembled. I got a tour of a small airplane engine re-building factory many years ago. It's incredible the detail they go into. Nothing at all like a automotive re-build.
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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Girouard View Post
    Tactical jets have similar issues , we lost a lot of Prowler’s in the 80’s . Crew error , possible wing fatigue , course the pilot MIGHT have been trying to “tear the wings off” doing ACM (Aircraft Combat Maneuvering ) Prolly spelled wrong , so keep your seats teachers;-)) , wing fatigue lead to re-winging the A-6 and the EA-6B most likely had wing root issues , the navy started to greatly limit training that required over 4 G’s . Prowlers where highly unlikely to EVER have to evade enemy aircraft or missiles , as they are a stand off aircraft , they can do their job from outside of the “lions mouth”, so ACM isn’t really some thing they do, or are highly unlikely yo ever do!
    We do know before G limits where in place , Prowler’s pulled G’s , but the ECM POD’s didn’t , to the POD broke off the bomb rack and broke the vertical stabilizer off one jet as the tail hit the POD. Or out board wing.

    Planes and jets really don’t want to stay in the air, so any number of things can cause them to crash.
    What goes up , must come down.
    No one lives forever !
    i was amazed to see how hard flying supersonic is on a jet, even brNd new up to date jets
    i guess the navy gets to do so more than anybody else these days but they report more emergencies post supersonic than the a air force does

    **** just flies off the aircraft when they break the speed of sound, sometimes it’s really important stuff. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Lots of people let their car servicing lapse without any issue, and many people fly on a budget, but cutting costs on plane service is just not a good idea......you cant just coast into the hard shoulder and walk when something goes wrong. Unfortunate for the people on the ground.
    You could have included boats as well...a new member at my club was aghast with the sea-worthiness of the great majority of members´boats ...leaving aside the paintwork, varnishing and SS fittings of course...he is a retired naval engr/architect who worked his whole lifetime in shipyards

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    i was amazed to see how hard flying supersonic is on a jet, even brNd new up to date jets
    i guess the navy gets to do so more than anybody else these days but they report more emergencies post supersonic than the a air force does

    **** just flies off the aircraft when they break the speed of sound, sometimes it’s really important stuff. . .
    Tomcat’s usually returned from supersonic flights down, leaking something , fuel or hydraulic fluid. Glad my jet didn’t have burner or the ability to go that fast.
    We did lose a LH fillet panel one day in VAQ-137. The Skipper was the stick, he came by the ship givenin er all she had , then just as he cleared the bow , he pulled up and did a few barrel rolls as he disappeared . When he trapped the RH fillet panel where the AE’s emergency spin assist battery is located was gone. TFOA , (Things Falling Off Aircraft ) had to be submitted . I was a AE-3 E-4 at the time , one of the E-5’s the shop trouble shooter at the time Jack (Drak) Draculisz (sp) said to me , ( “ %$^# I might have forgot to put the fasteners back on that panel”) , Nothing ever became of it, maybe because the Skipper was the stick , the report might have gotten fast tracked into the circular file in maintenance control??
    I was a junior guy at the time , so I have no idea what was done up the chain of command, BUT it was the coolest EA-6B fly by I ever witnessed ! Skipper did us proud that day!!!

  25. #25
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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    I've two friends with small aircraft. Although it was many years ago, I believe they said an annual inspection can cost as much as $15,000. Probably depends on what has to be torn apart and reassembled. I got a tour of a small airplane engine re-building factory many years ago. It's incredible the detail they go into. Nothing at all like a automotive re-build.
    I really should learn to Google before I post. An annual inspection can be as little as $1,000 on a small single engine plane. The engine re-build (every 2,000 hours or so) is what can cost around $18,000.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    I really should learn to Google before I post. An annual inspection can be as little as $1,000 on a small single engine plane. The engine re-build (every 2,000 hours or so) is what can cost around $18,000.

    Nah , step right out there Rich. We need a Should I tell my wife / or what ever your clever thread titles are when you relate tales of Rich and his wife threads! Those are generally funny threads !

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    Side note: just how much does an annual inspection cost?
    I've been away from it for along time..1990 or so. a Cessna 140, about the cheapest certified airplane out there was about a thousand... today 1500? idk. this is without the mechanic finding any problems that render a plane "not in a flyable state"and the problems have to be addressed and certified in the planes logbook by a licensed mech. . the price of an "annual" is controlled by the mechanic directly or by the aircraft service company that employs the mechanics
    Last edited by the_gr8t_waldo; 02-09-2019 at 06:33 PM.

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    After an annual inspection, a list of the discrepancies will be given to the owner, and an entry made in the logbook that the aircraft is not airworthy. It's up to the owner to decide what to do next. Much like a boat survey, except boats don't have required logbooks.

    For example...

    Typical Maintenance entry for 100hr/annual inspection
    Reference: FAA-G-8082-11 IA KNOWLEDGE TEST INFORMATION


    FIGURE 9.-Example of a record entry for an annual inspection in which the aircraft was found to be unairworthy.

    March 30, 1998
    Total Aircraft Time 1853.00 Hours
    Tach Reading 975.80

    I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with an annual inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated March 30, 1998, have been provided for the aircraft owner.

    Joseph P Kline
    A&P 123456789 IA

    FIGURE 10.-Example of a discrepancy list to be provided to an aircraft owner when reporting an aircraft with unairworthy items after completing an annual inspection.

    Academy Aviation
    Hangar 4
    North Philadelphia Airport

    Philadelphia, PA 19114
    Mr. Morris Mecca
    1450 W. Cheltenham Ave.
    Philadelphia, PA 19125

    Dear Mr. McCall:

    This is to certify that on March 30, 1998, I completed an annual inspection on your aircraft, Condor 191B, S/N 3945, N1234, and found the following unairworthy items:

    1. Compression in No. 3 cylinder read 30 over 80, which is below the manufacturer's recommended
    limits.

    2. The muffler has a broken baffle plate which is blocking the engine exhaust outlet.

    3. There is a 6-inch crack on bottom of left wing just aft of main landing gear attach point.

    Jospeh P. Kline
    A&P 123456789 IA


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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    I have enrolled in a groupon ground school and now proposition for a few fellow formites...

    6A5A3082-68BC-4F3B-A3DD-3D93986F86D6.jpg
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 02-09-2019 at 08:11 PM.
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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    I have enrolled in a groupon ground school and now proposition for a few fellow formites...

    6A5A3082-68BC-4F3B-A3DD-3D93986F86D6.jpg
    We could have that buffed up and in the air in no time!
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    Default

    Tail number is N414RS , built in 1981. Klamath Hearlad says there's video -- seems like one engine separated from the wing.

    https://www.heraldandnews.com/news/l...fd6e11aa4.html

    Apparently, the pilot had false ID. Antonio Pastini's real name was Jordan Isaacson. Styled himself as a retired Chicago cop... but they've never heard of him. Had a Chicago police badge that was reported lost in 1978.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...eb4_story.html

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-inj...ry?id=60823352

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Possible loss of control in bad visibility leading to overstressing of the airframe. It was onfire before it hit the ground.

    Back when I looked after some air taxis and others, including complete rebuilds of biplanes. We had a single Commanche 250 in for a Check 1. I noticed an oddity on the leading edge of the stabilator ( horizontal tailplane) Closer look revealed it had been dinged and filled with body filler. I disconnected the control cables and found it was out of balance.
    Now, a year or so before, the same type of aircraft had been taken for the airtest after it's certificate. THe owner had flown it and invited some friends to make up the weight. While taking it to the maximum allowed speed check, instead of a shallow dive, levelling out so you reach the speed in level flight, he put it steeper and pulled out when he saw it on the indicator. He actually exceeded the speed and the stabilator fluttered, breaking off. As in the Bonanza this caused a sharp nose down that exceeded the limits and the wings folded. What was left made a bit of a hole.
    The investigarion revealed exactly what I had found on 'our' one. The flutter was caused by an out of balanced stabilator that had been repaired but not checked for balance.
    That accident resulted in airtests only being carried out by commercial rated pilots and with minimum crew. Sand bags if you need more weight.

    On costs. I noticed that replacing the heated windscreen on a Piper Malibu, like the one that crashed in the English Channel recently, can cost up to $30k !

    A2

    If more discussion, by pilots. Look here: https://www.pprune.org/accidents-clo...atalities.html
    Last edited by Andrew2; 02-10-2019 at 02:57 AM.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    This was a C130 water bomber.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    cool, so we're going the tail dragger route
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    I have enrolled in a groupon ground school and now proposition for a few fellow formites...

    6A5A3082-68BC-4F3B-A3DD-3D93986F86D6.jpg
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: A question for the pilots or aviation buffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    A few days ago there was an airplane crash in California. A 6-8 passenger twin engine private plane went down. Pilot (only person on board) killed and four on the ground died.
    Reports say that the plane broke up in the air, scattering plane parts over a several block area of the neighborhood.
    What would cause a plane to break up in mid-air without a collision or explosion?
    Historically, aircraft break up for only a couple reasons: loss of control due to flight into clouds and subsequent loss of orientation due to instrument failure or incompetence; or structural failure for some other reason. After viewing the video in post#32 I’m betting on the former.

    I don’t get the fake credentials part. It really isn’t that hard to do this profession right. He must have been difficult to certify, or didn’t like rules.
    Last edited by CK 17; 02-10-2019 at 09:29 AM.
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