I got a real good idea

[AussieBarney]

My wife and I are pensioners, this means the state pays us a stipend so that we can live. I am my wife's carer, this means I can do the things her medical condition stop her from doing herself, such as; housework, shopping, driving, personal care.

She is in reciept of a payment from the NDIS. The National Disability Insurance Scheme

this program pays her to manage her own affairs and to apply the funds as she sees fit, such as medication, medical aids, walkers, shower chairs. This is within a set program and with government oversight.

It is, by the reckoning of certain bilge members, Plain socialism of the worst kind and I am a scrounging dog not fit to be seen in public.

Funny thing is; I have not had one Australian have a go at me for being on the welfare rolls, in fact, I have people ask me if it is enough to survive on.

This is over twenty years, not once.

What we need to do is get you to send over your right wing idealogues and I could explain how it works, the benefits to my wife and I, the benefits to Australian society an then

Watch their heads explode, this would eliminate them from the forum,

Peace on Earth

You have to understand. We, I mean Australians, believe in a Social Contract. By this I mean, no man left behind. As much as we can, no one is perfect.

We have our problems, lots of them, but, We share them, makes it easier to get on in this world.

[johnw]

We have a similar system here. Some people on disability have joined the tea party. The irony may be lost to them, but not to the rest of us.

[Steve McMahon]

I'm with you AussieBarney. We have a pretty good social assistance and disability system here and I have no problem with paying my share of taxes to fund it. I believe that those of us who are blessed to be able to, have the moral obligation to help support those that need it. That belief goes beyond borders to include refugees of all stripes. In my little community of population 350, there is also a relief committee that raises funds to give help to those in need beyond the usual moose and cod in the freezer or load of fire wood. They use the funds to buy heating oil or pay the power bill for pensioners or those of low income in the coldest months, buy gas cards for those that need medical treatment far away etc... Your commitment to caring for your wife is beyond measure in value.

[hawkeye54]

Barney, I gotta echo Steve's last sentence in the post above. You're a good man and obviously a devoted partner

[BrianW]

I'm not an expert on our, the USA's, social programs. What your wife is receiving would probably be considered Social Security Disability Insurance...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social...lity_Insurance

Payment amount[edit]

The amount that each recipient receives monthly is based upon an average of past earnings. The calculation is based on the average indexed monthly earnings (AIME) which is used to calculate the primary insurance amount (PIA). In 2017, the average monthly disability payment was $1171, and the maximum monthly benefit was $2,687.^[9]

Here's a Wiki page that covers the whole spectrum of US social aid...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social..._United_States

It's a fairly diverse situation.

My thought is maybe you're confusing people's dislike of welfare abuse, for dislike of welfare. Now for sure, someone is going to surf the interweb and find a quote from a conservative who hates welfare. Put don't be misguided by the extreme examples. Everyone I know in the USA understands the concept of giving a helping hand, and more in the case of a long term disability.

[Jim Bow]

But Barney theres a health care executive in Oregon who makes a salary large enough to allow him to own and race an actual jet plane! Can you imagine how much it would cost to race a jet plane.
How many Australian healthcare executives could do that?
'murica!

[AussieBarney]

Please let me explain myself.

For the most part I find my American friends on this forum to be generous, friendly, strange, exotic, frightening, incredibly well read, educated and strangely frightened of the word and concept of socialism. It is as though you would rather go ten rounds with an iced up grizzly bear than have to sit and consider the benefits of the most used political philosophy on Planet Earth.

The U.S. is a place of strange and very definite differences. You are nation of go-getters. A nation of laws. very patriotic. You are very religious. Yet, when something like Sandy Hook or Las Vegas happens you seem to lose the very thing which is one of the defining positives. The ability to get something done.

Over the last 11 years I have sat and listened to a diverse range of personalities and political beliefs on this forum. I have taken to believing that people such as Bluey, Ricky-Mi, Sobell, et al. are taking the piss out of me. I cannot believe that any sane adult could think like this.

I now know I am so very, very wrong. This is the way they think. Example, Sandy Hook is collateral damage and that the parents had a choice. They made it, they cop the fallout.
The concept that everything is down to the choice you make, that there is no outside agency that can stop you, if you make the, mostly mythical, "Right choice".
I am sixty years old and in that time I have made two, count them, two right choices. One was when I vowed that I would never go back to prison and the second was when I asked Sue to be my wife. I consider myself to be an intelligent bloke and I spent most of my life stumbling from one minor disaster to another.

I would love to have been able to consistently make the right choices like some of the co-respondents on this forum have been able to do.

I just wanted to say their dystopian political ideas and their ideas around socialism are flat out wrong.

At no time did I set out to insult the membership and I offer my sincerest apologies if anyone felt offended

[johnw]

Please let me explain myself.

For the most part I find my American friends on this forum to be generous, friendly, strange, exotic, frightening, incredibly well read, educated and strangely frightened of the word and concept of socialism. It is as though you would rather go ten rounds with an iced up grizzly bear than have to sit and consider the benefits of the most used political philosophy on Planet Earth.

The U.S. is a place of strange and very definite differences. You are nation of go-getters. A nation of laws. very patriotic. You are very religious. Yet, when something like Sandy Hook or Las Vegas happens you seem to lose the very thing which is one of the defining positives. The ability to get something done.

Over the last 11 years I have sat and listened to a diverse range of personalities and political beliefs on this forum. I have taken to believing that people such as Bluey, Ricky-Mi, Sobell, et al. are taking the piss out of me. I cannot believe that any sane adult could think like this.

I now know I am so very, very wrong. This is the way they think. Example, Sandy Hook is collateral damage and that the parents had a choice. They made it, they cop the fallout.
The concept that everything is down to the choice you make, that there is no outside agency that can stop you, if you make the, mostly mythical, "Right choice".
I am sixty years old and in that time I have made two, count them, two right choices. One was when I vowed that I would never go back to prison and the second was when I asked Sue to be my wife. I consider myself to be an intelligent bloke and I spent most of my life stumbling from one minor disaster to another.

I would love to have been able to consistently make the right choices like some of the co-respondents on this forum have been able to do.

I just wanted to say their dystopian political ideas and their ideas around socialism are flat out wrong.

At no time did I set out to insult the membership and I offer my sincerest apologies if anyone felt offended

Oh, I don't think anyone's offended. You are admired and well liked here.

[WI-Tom]

Please let me explain myself.

For the most part I find my American friends on this forum to be generous, friendly, strange, exotic, frightening, incredibly well read, educated and strangely frightened of the word and concept of socialism. It is as though you would rather go ten rounds with an iced up grizzly bear than have to sit and consider the benefits of the most used political philosophy on Planet Earth.

Just keep in mind there are also plenty of us who are NOT afraid of socialism. And that all of us, including the ones who hate and fear it the most, are the beneficiaries of the sweeping 20th century socialism experiment known as the New Deal.

Since then, the train has run right off the rails and is heading for the cliff, but not all of us approve of that turn of events.

Tom

[The Bigfella]

I don't entirely buy this concept... but it's a starting point



The issue, of course, is when a safety net becomes viewed as an entitlement. We've seen forumites who clearly believe they are entitled to a living wage without having to work for it. When a country, like Australia, reaches a point, as it has, where more than 50% of the population is a net taker from government, one has to question how that safety net is defined and administered.

That's in no way a shot at you or your wife Barney, and you know that. It's a shot at the bludgers who put their hand out simply because they can get away with doing it, rather than contributing to society.

[leikec]

I don't entirely buy this concept... but it's a starting point



The issue, of course, is when a safety net becomes viewed as an entitlement. We've seen forumites who clearly believe they are entitled to a living wage without having to work for it. When a country, like Australia, reaches a point, as it has, where more than 50% of the population is a net taker from government, one has to question how that safety net is defined and administered.

That's in no way a shot at you or your wife Barney, and you know that. It's a shot at the bludgers who put their hand out simply because they can get away with doing it, rather than contributing to society.

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

Jeff C

[johnw]

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

Jeff C

The Tudors instituted the death penalty for unemployment. It didn't work.

A few years later, the 1536 Act for Punishment of Sturdy Vagabonds and Beggars was passed. This more severe law stated that those caught outside of their parish without work would be punished by being whipped through the streets. If caught a second time they could lose an ear and if caught a third time they could be executed.^[3] However officers of the law were reluctant to enforce such a draconian provision.^[6]

Things got worse under Henry VIII's successor, Edward VI:

For the able-bodied poor, life became even tougher during the reign of Edward VI. In 1547, the Vagabonds Act was passed that subjected vagrants to some of the more extreme provisions of the criminal law, namely two years servitude and branding with a "V" as the penalty for the first offence and death for the second. Justices of the Peace were reluctant to apply the full penalty.[26] in 1552, Edward VI passed a poor actwhich designated a position of "Collector of Alms" in each parish and created a register of licensed poor. Under the assumption that parish collections would now relieve all poor, begging was completely prohibited.[27]

Under that law, vagrants could be sold like any other slave during those two years.

[The Bigfella]

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

Jeff C

How do you jump to that, in response to what I posted?

Do you seriously think that a situation where over half the population takes more than they give is not out of whack? It's not selfishness that's at work there, it's greed.

[johnw]

How do you jump to that, in response to what I posted?

Do you seriously think that a situation where over half the population takes more than they give is not out of whack? It's not selfishness that's at work there, it's greed.

Sounds more like fantasy. Conservatives here like to talk about how many people don't pay income tax, but they never want to talk about payroll taxes or sales taxes. If Australia pays more to half the population more than they pay in, that's quite an exception. It doesn't work that way where I live.

[purri]

^ he;s duplicitous as per the usual with the usual. Counts social benefits as a nett non compounded current aggregates without contribs over time and social carer and charity inputs. ACOSS and Grattan Institute have a carpload of papers.l

[The Bigfella]

^ he;s duplicitous as per the usual with the usual. Counts social benefits as a nett non compounded current aggregates without contribs over time and social carer and charity inputs. ACOSS and Grattan Institute have a carpload of papers.l

Shove your duplicity somewhere appropriate and post some real information, for once

[WX]

I don't entirely buy this concept... but it's a starting point



The issue, of course, is when a safety net becomes viewed as an entitlement. We've seen forumites who clearly believe they are entitled to a living wage without having to work for it. When a country, like Australia, reaches a point, as it has, where more than 50% of the population is a net taker from government, one has to question how that safety net is defined and administered.

That's in no way a shot at you or your wife Barney, and you know that. It's a shot at the bludgers who put their hand out simply because they can get away with doing it, rather than contributing to society.

Rich, poor or middle class there will always be a percentage that will Rort the system no matter what. You could take away the safety net for low or no income but that in itself will attract a cost, which will be in increased crime, societal stress and probably health. We live in an age were unskilled jobs are disappearing and part time/casual jobs with uncertain hours are on the increase. You are going to have a percentage of the workforce that will not find living wage employment.

[purri]

Hahahahahahahahahaha

shove your duplicity somewhere appropriate and post some real information, for once

[doorstop]

Play nice Kiddies!

[WX]

Play nice Kiddies!

It won't last long it usually ends up with one of them getting banned.

[The Bigfella]

taxtake.jpg

Interesting, eh?

[The Bigfella]

It won't last long it usually ends up with one of them getting banned.

Old Mate's got his nose out of joint because he holds himself out as an expert in Oz prehistory. I've been dining on several occasions lately with a pre-eminent academic in the field, who I casually asked if he knew Old Mate. Never heard of him.

[Bob (oh, THAT Bob)]

Sidebar: You all should see the new movie, "On the Basis of Sex." One of the key legal cases in US history, where a younger Ruth Bader Ginsberg defends a man who is caring for his mother but is denied government benefits to do so, solely because he is male, and not female.

[Bob (oh, THAT Bob)]

Sidebar #2: As robotics take over more and more human jobs (and the rate of this is accelerating exponentially), things are going to get weird. Robots pay no taxes. More progressive countries are considering minimum "living wages" to those that will be out of work as a result.

[Too Little Time]

She is in reciept of a payment from the NDIS. The National Disability Insurance Scheme

I don't mind people being on welfare. But in the US there appears to be considerable fraud. Not only in disability payments.

[amish rob]

Sidebar #2: As robotics take over more and more human jobs (and the rate of this is accelerating exponentially), things are going to get weird. Robots pay no taxes. More progressive countries are considering minimum "living wages" to those that will be out of work as a result.

Finland's been playing around with a Universal Wage.

This was all covered by John Gardner, folks. Universal Wage, all that jazz. Yeah, the dory guy...

Peace,
Robert

[Too Little Time]

taxtake.jpg

Interesting, eh?

It would be more informative to show after tax income. Or even wealth.

[johnw]

taxtake.jpg

Interesting, eh?

It would be, if personal income tax were the only tax. I suspect there are other taxes in Australia that are not as progressive. Here, we have payroll taxes, which are regressive. In fact, in the U.S., as much is collected in payroll taxes as in income tax:



And wages are a declining part of GDP:



Considerably more interesting, eh?

[johnw]

Finland's been playing around with a Universal Wage.

This was all covered by John Gardner, folks. Universal Wage, all that jazz. Yeah, the dory guy...

Peace,
Robert

Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman were fans of the basic income. The Finland experiment wasn't quite that, they were only giving it to some unemployed people, if I recall correctly. The encouraging thing was that it did not cause people to become less likely to work. The discouraging thing was that it did not make them more likely to work.

Canada has also experimented with the basic income. I suppose once they've automated all the jobs, including dog walking and bringing enormous pepper grinders to your table in a restaurant, the only ones able to pay taxes will be the owners of capital, which would create a lot of problems.

It's called the replicator economy.

http://www.hirocker.com/r-economy/re...r-economy.html

[amish rob]

Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman were fans of the basic income. The Finland experiment wasn't quite that, they were only giving it to some unemployed people, if I recall correctly. The encouraging thing was that it did not cause people to become less likely to work. The discouraging thing was that it did not make them more likely to work.

Canada has also experimented with the basic income. I suppose once they've automated all the jobs, including dog walking and bringing enormous pepper grinders to your table in a restaurant, the only ones able to pay taxes will be the owners of capital, which would create a lot of problems.

It's called the replicator economy.

http://www.hirocker.com/r-economy/re...r-economy.html

Yep. As I understand it, they used a small sample of otherwise unemployed folks and offered them a "living wage" type stipend. It seems the results would indicate an improvement in outcomes across the board, but I'm not sure much analysis has been completed, yet.

And, I am, admittedly, only vaguely aware of the precise operational details.

Peace,
Robert

[purri]

ABS, ACOSS, Grattan Institute. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Shove your duplicity somewhere appropriate and post some real information, for once

[Tom Montgomery]

My wife and I are pensioners, this means the state pays us a stipend so that we can live. I am my wife's carer, this means I can do the things her medical condition stop her from doing herself, such as; housework, shopping, driving, personal care.

She is in reciept of a payment from the NDIS. The National Disability Insurance Scheme

this program pays her to manage her own affairs and to apply the funds as she sees fit, such as medication, medical aids, walkers, shower chairs. This is within a set program and with government oversight.

It is, by the reckoning of certain bilge members, Plain socialism of the worst kind and I am a scrounging dog not fit to be seen in public.

Scum. Don't let the bastids get you down.

[The Bigfella]

ABS, ACOSS, Grattan Institute. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Again, you show your inability to understand "information" as opposed to a jumble of letters. They all just rattle around in that empty space, eh?

[purri]

^ hahahahahahaha

[WX]

Please let me explain myself.

For the most part I find my American friends on this forum to be generous, friendly, strange, exotic, frightening, incredibly well read, educated and strangely frightened of the word and concept of socialism. It is as though you would rather go ten rounds with an iced up grizzly bear than have to sit and consider the benefits of the most used political philosophy on Planet Earth.

The U.S. is a place of strange and very definite differences. You are nation of go-getters. A nation of laws. very patriotic. You are very religious. Yet, when something like Sandy Hook or Las Vegas happens you seem to lose the very thing which is one of the defining positives. The ability to get something done.

Over the last 11 years I have sat and listened to a diverse range of personalities and political beliefs on this forum. I have taken to believing that people such as Bluey, Ricky-Mi, Sobell, et al. are taking the piss out of me. I cannot believe that any sane adult could think like this.

I now know I am so very, very wrong. This is the way they think. Example, Sandy Hook is collateral damage and that the parents had a choice. They made it, they cop the fallout.
The concept that everything is down to the choice you make, that there is no outside agency that can stop you, if you make the, mostly mythical, "Right choice".
I am sixty years old and in that time I have made two, count them, two right choices. One was when I vowed that I would never go back to prison and the second was when I asked Sue to be my wife. I consider myself to be an intelligent bloke and I spent most of my life stumbling from one minor disaster to another.

I would love to have been able to consistently make the right choices like some of the co-respondents on this forum have been able to do.

I just wanted to say their dystopian political ideas and their ideas around socialism are flat out wrong.

At no time did I set out to insult the membership and I offer my sincerest apologies if anyone felt offended

There are many Australians who think the same way and I've even come across a few who think we should all be armed. However most of these people are also convinced there's nothing wrong with our climate.