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Thread: My first boat??

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Default My first boat??

    After far too many years of looking, watching, studying, speculating, sketching (unsuccessfully) and procrastinating, I finally found THIS quite by accident,
    https://timwestonboats.com/plans/plans-noosa/

    My gut's telling me to go for it, but the yellow streak in my spine says I should get expert opinion, hence this post.

    I have the time, the space (when I get the caravan out), the tools and the knowhow to use them. (I often surprise myself how well I've made some things, then I usually mess up the finishing).

    For you to help me with my consternation, I read somewhere that I need a "Statement Of Purpose". (in a previous life "SOP" meant something quite different).

    So, here goes:

    All I'm after is a small, lightweight (car-toppable?) boat that I can handle by myself if necessary, to get me and maybe a mate around the point/bluff to a spot on the water where hoons on jet-skis, trawlers and shore-fishermen can't get to, where we can "feed a few fish" and maybe drop a cray-pot. Maybe even drag a flounder/bait net off the beach.

    I'm thinking of powering with about a 3 HP air-cooled 4 stroke (that I can carry easily to safe storage) and be able to row as a back-up. (I read somewhere that it's easier to row a powerboat than to power a rowboat).

    The design in the link above looks pretty much like what I have been trying to "design" for maybe 10 years but in the absence of any convenient formulae to do so, I could never get the proportions right. (cue Nick's tagline?)

    couple of questions:
    If I decide to go ahead with this, would it be too difficult to put more flare on the sides to reduce the "boxy" look, and widen the distance between the "gunwales" to facilitate rowing? At first glance it seems the design as it stands is too narrow to row comfortably, and too wide to paddle. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Also, maybe a little more rake on the transom?
    More importantly, would the designer be highly offended if I were to make such changes?

    Would this be a good first-timer project?

    I have no intention of launching into the surf, but do you think it will handle/survive water that gets a bit choppy, or unexpectedly comes up rough?

    (Trying to prevent buyer's remorse)

    In anticipation, Thanks

    Norm
    "The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything." Edward John Phelps

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Very interesting. An unusual design. But it looks the part. If it speaks to you, go for it. Not a massive investment in materials. Paint everything to keep it easy. As a first time builder, don't change things. Its probably fine.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Can you define your requirements a bit further? If you really want to cartop the boat you'll need something really light - unless your back is very strong and health insurance very good. If you have the space to store a trailer, go that route -- it's an easy way to also store the boat and lets you move it around easily.

    For the type use you describe -- ocean shoreline -- you'll want something with lots of freeboard (hull above waterline) and stability (mostly width). I wouldn't sacrifice stability for the small amount of rowing you might do in this small powerboat. And you really want it to be stable under power at speed, including making turns in swell and rough water.

    As above, pick a design that meets your needs and build to the plan, man...

    We have lots of NZ members, so if you specify the waters where you'll use it they'll probably be able to give some accurate advice.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Pennsylvania
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    8,295

    Default Re: My first boat??

    What Ben says. If you like the look of it, build it and have some fun. But don't try to "improve" it, that will trigger a whole chain of problems. The only way to figure out which boat is exactly what you want is to take a best guess, build that one and let the on-water learning point to the next boat.
    -Dave

  5. #5
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Nice boat! Go for it! Adding flare is no trivial design task. So stay with the plan.

    Have fun! Michel

  6. #6
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    For what it’s worth and without intending any disrespect to the designer, aside from not being a particularly attractive looking thing (noting that beauty is on the eyes of the beholder) it looks like a river/estuary boat and so not something that I’d feel particularly comfortable taking anywhere but flat water. But then I don’t know of many lightweight car-toppers that would really be suitable for taking outside of protected waters.

    In regards to rowing it though, you can always add some hinged or removable outriggers:



    Build weight of 50kg may need some clarification/qualification from the designer as weight adds up pretty quickly with different ply’s and more liberal use of epoxy, which may be expected on a first build, and the various fittings that you may be likely to add.

    On that note I question the materials specified by the designer :

    • Plywood – You don’t need to use expensive grades of plywood or marine ply to make this boat. The boat was designed with economy and ease of material purchase in mind – exterior grade, structural economy plywood is perfect.
      Pine framing – Pine is economical and readily available but other wood can be used as well – your preference.

    I would not want use anything other than marine grade ply on a boat build and I am kinda' surprised that anyone calling themselves a boat designer would advocate using house building products for a boat. Some will argue that exterior grade structural ply will survive with plenty of epoxy to seal it and with the ends well and truly sealed, but to do it sufficiently (if at all possible) will add more weight and personally I wouldn’t waste my money and the time invested in building a boat with anything but decent marine grade ply.

    Likewise pine framing - from where the designer is from it’s reasonable to assume that he’s basically talking standard Radiata pine from Bunnings, which is fine for enclosed house and wall framing but which is particularly quick to rot when exposed to the elements.

    If you’re boat is going to be stored in a shed and can be dried out fully after getting rained on or washed down this shouldn’t be a major problem, but if like most small boats it’s likely to be left to the elements somewhat at some time of its life or won’t be nice and dry when stored, steer away from radiata pine.

    My two bobs worth, for what they're worth, keep looking for something specifically designed as an inshore/coastal waters knockabout and build it from decent marine ply.
    Last edited by Larks; 01-31-2019 at 09:45 PM.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  7. #7
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    FYI, I made a beautiful Eastport Pram from Chesapeake Light Craft out of oak plywood from Home Depot and it disintegrated in less than 4 years. If I'd waited until I could afford marine grade plywood, I never would've built my first boat, which enabled me to build a much better second boat out of marine grade. If you don't use the good stuff, just expect that it'll fall apart fairly soon.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    I would not want use anything other than marine grade ply
    Even here you've got to be careful Larkin. Most of the "marine ply" here in oz is illegally stamped BS1088 where in reality its B/C grade plywood

  9. #9
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bowdidge View Post
    Even here you've got to be careful Larkin. Most of the "marine ply" here in oz is illegally stamped BS1088 where in reality its B/C grade plywood
    I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s “illegally” stamped as Australia doesn’t enforce the British Standard, i.e. imported ply isn’t inspected to confirm that they meet the standard, so manufacturers can get away with stamping it that way. I gather from talking to a well known boat designer in NZ at Christmas that NZ is much the same. You need to rely on the retailer having inspected BS1088 stamped ply against the standard to determine its legitimacy before they buy it themselves.

    Otherwise look for the AS/NZ2272-2006 standard.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  10. #10
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Got a mate of mine who works in the plywood industry as an employee for an importer for plywood from Asia. He said the exterior grade plywood arrives in containers of which whilst unpacking, they stamp every sheet BS1088 Marine ply. He told me under Australian standands, its actually illegal, but its done anyway, then distributed out to all the retailers and marked up $$$$.

    One such business here in Brisbane was selling plywood marked BS1088 Kokoda plywood. Well... I know the owner of the large company that imports this plywood quite well and he told me that they wrote a letter to the business telling them to remove their statement on their website, as what they was not Kokoda. Within 24 hours it was removed.

    Overall, there are a lot of scammers get around out there, so buyer beware.

  11. #11
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    Melb, Vic, Aus
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    I used "bunnings marine ply" once. (Luckily it wasn't for a boat)
    I left an off cut out side and it was rained on once. Not heavy rain either. It wasn't in a puddle at all.
    The next day it was all delaminated. I've had "structural ply" in the weather for months with no delamination.
    If you do want to use marine ply, buy from a reputable supplier.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2016
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    Pacific drifting
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    All I'm after is a small, lightweight (car-toppable?) boat that I can handle by myself if necessary, to get me and maybe a mate around the point/bluff to a spot on the water where hoons on jet-skis, trawlers and shore-fishermen can't get to, where we can "feed a few fish" and maybe drop a cray-pot. Maybe even drag a flounder/bait net off the beach.

    I think you will find that this boat will have difficulty successfully carrying two adults in anything but flat calm.
    Personally , I would choose something a little larger.
    Freeboard seems to be marginal . It appears to be a flat water boat.

    A simple little dory would do the job you want.

    This one could be easily converted to S & G . It would be lighter built that way.
    I would partially deck it over to add small flotation compartments on both ends .

    You don`t need to build the case for the board , and sail rig.

    Dory.jpg

    Dory2.jpg

    https://www.diy-wood-boat.com/suppor...ailingdory.pdf
    Last edited by beam reach; 02-01-2019 at 10:04 AM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Ask John Welsford, an excellent and helpful NZ designer who will also be able to advise on locally avaliable ply options.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    new zealand
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    In fact, take a look at Mr Welsford's plans catalogue http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/plans.htm
    Something like his Seagull design sounds like it would fit your requirements (rowable, can take a small outboard, only 42kg, has a bit of flare on the sides). IMO a better looking boat that would be better suited to local conditions - I'd second the earlier comment about noosa looking like a flat water boat.
    I also think you'd find one of the Welsford boats substantially simpler to build - that box keel detail on noosa just looks like an unnecessary complication.
    I have built one of of John's Pathfinder trailer yachts - he is very knowledgeable about the materials available locally, supportive of his builders, active on this forum, and not totally averse to being asked about the feasibility of design tweaks - if having a little cuddy is important to you, for example.

    Pete
    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    Cambridge NZ
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Thanks for your help and encouragement guys, not something I'm accustomed to, much appreciated. Thank you.

    Right now, We're off to Whitianga for a week. Catch you later

    Cheers

    Norm
    "The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything." Edward John Phelps

  16. #16
    Join Date
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    I am pretty sure it is in the NZ constitution that every house hold must own a sailing boat and if you don’t own one you can apply for an interest free loan

  17. #17
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Very interesting. An unusual design. But it looks the part. If it speaks to you, go for it. Not a massive investment in materials. Paint everything to keep it easy. As a first time builder, don't change things. Its probably fine.
    Yep, "unusual" as in different is what appeals to me.

    A couple of earlier finds got me excited:
    https://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/good_boat2.10770/ Too long for me, and what's with the slight "hook" on the bottom from stem to stern?

    http://aluminumalloyboats.com/viewtopic.php?t=5524 Likewise, too long but by gaud if I were going to build a boat this size, this would be it! I'm impressed. Looks like it could be done in ply?

  18. #18
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    Can you define your requirements a bit further? If you really want to cartop the boat you'll need something really light - unless your back is very strong and health insurance very good. If you have the space to store a trailer, go that route -- it's an easy way to also store the boat and lets you move it around easily.

    For the type use you describe -- ocean shoreline -- you'll want something with lots of freeboard (hull above waterline) and stability (mostly width). I wouldn't sacrifice stability for the small amount of rowing you might do in this small powerboat. And you really want it to be stable under power at speed, including making turns in swell and rough water.

    As above, pick a design that meets your needs and build to the plan, man...

    We have lots of NZ members, so if you specify the waters where you'll use it they'll probably be able to give some accurate advice.
    Something like this would work for me, I have one of those caravans, but this is a bit too over the top!




    I also have a 7' x 4' tilt trailer that I would like to carry a small boat on for like a day trip. I don't really want to store, register and maintain a purpose-built trailer, though I'd really like to make one.

    I hear you with the freeboard bit. That worried me some, and the narrowness of the hull makes me suspect it would be "tippy" as in canoe-type tippy. I'm 6'2 and 200 lbs which I reckon would make things a bit top-heavy?

  19. #19
    Join Date
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    For what it’s worth and without intending any disrespect to the designer, aside from not being a particularly attractive looking thing (noting that beauty is on the eyes of the beholder) it looks like a river/estuary boat and so not something that I’d feel particularly comfortable taking anywhere but flat water. But then I don’t know of many lightweight car-toppers that would really be suitable for taking outside of protected waters.

    In regards to rowing it though, you can always add some hinged or removable outriggers:



    Build weight of 50kg may need some clarification/qualification from the designer as weight adds up pretty quickly with different ply’s and more liberal use of epoxy, which may be expected on a first build, and the various fittings that you may be likely to add.

    On that note I question the materials specified by the designer :

    • Plywood – You don’t need to use expensive grades of plywood or marine ply to make this boat. The boat was designed with economy and ease of material purchase in mind – exterior grade, structural economy plywood is perfect.
      Pine framing – Pine is economical and readily available but other wood can be used as well – your preference.

    I would not want use anything other than marine grade ply on a boat build and I am kinda' surprised that anyone calling themselves a boat designer would advocate using house building products for a boat. Some will argue that exterior grade structural ply will survive with plenty of epoxy to seal it and with the ends well and truly sealed, but to do it sufficiently (if at all possible) will add more weight and personally I wouldn’t waste my money and the time invested in building a boat with anything but decent marine grade ply.

    Likewise pine framing - from where the designer is from it’s reasonable to assume that he’s basically talking standard Radiata pine from Bunnings, which is fine for enclosed house and wall framing but which is particularly quick to rot when exposed to the elements.

    If you’re boat is going to be stored in a shed and can be dried out fully after getting rained on or washed down this shouldn’t be a major problem, but if like most small boats it’s likely to be left to the elements somewhat at some time of its life or won’t be nice and dry when stored, steer away from radiata pine.

    My two bobs worth, for what they're worth, keep looking for something specifically designed as an inshore/coastal waters knockabout and build it from decent marine ply.
    You're right, it's not really pretty is it, maybe that way no-one will steal it? But, it's cheap enough for a learner to learn on? Bigger and better may come later.

    I like that rowlock outrigger idea a lot. What's the rest of the boat they're on?

    As far as the exterior treated construction ply thing, and the (equally treated?) pine "framings" goes, I'm not overly concerned about longevity or resale value, though I'm inclined to go for Douglas Fir if I can find any. I see this mostly as something TO do, and appears to be something I CAN do. Who knows, something better may turn up.

    btw, love your tagline(s)

  20. #20
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bowdidge View Post
    Got a mate of mine who works in the plywood industry as an employee for an importer for plywood from Asia. He said the exterior grade plywood arrives in containers of which whilst unpacking, they stamp every sheet BS1088 Marine ply. He told me under Australian standands, its actually illegal, but its done anyway, then distributed out to all the retailers and marked up $$$$.

    One such business here in Brisbane was selling plywood marked BS1088 Kokoda plywood. Well... I know the owner of the large company that imports this plywood quite well and he told me that they wrote a letter to the business telling them to remove their statement on their website, as what they was not Kokoda. Within 24 hours it was removed.

    Overall, there are a lot of scammers get around out there, so buyer beware.
    Thanks for the heads up. A local company here advertises their "Marine Ply" as "stamped BS1088" A trap for young players?

  21. #21
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Strip planking?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  22. #22
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    I don't think I'd fancy driving that rig anywhere with curves in the road……….. the appendage likely weighing more than the van.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    We (two of us) put this one up on the camper without too much trouble.
    IMGP9835.jpg
    http://www.butlerprojects.com/boats/pacific/index.htm

  24. #24
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    Default Re: My first boat??

    Quote Originally Posted by timo4352 View Post
    We (two of us) put this one up on the camper without too much trouble.
    IMGP9835.jpg
    http://www.butlerprojects.com/boats/pacific/index.htm
    That's the ticket!! Thanks

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