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Thread: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

  1. #36
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    It seems to me that a heavy layer of polyurea over a sound hull would save you some maintainance, but I don't know how well it holds bottom paint.
    If I recall correctly, they were using not just to seal, but instead of bottom paint. The bottom would get slimy, but it wouldn't grow a beard.


    Lots of sound hulls have been covered with a couple or three layers of cold molding then glassed and stood the test of time. Polyurea would save a lot on labor over that process, perhaps enough that it would be less expensive.
    I think it would be significantly less expensive and save a lot of time as well.

    Anyway, I think I'd just go with a fiberglass hull to keep the labor expenses down, especially at my (and apparently your) advanced age.
    Right, and my intention is to go with a fiberglass hull, but in the meantime, I want to keep my options open if I can get a good deal on a wood plank boat in good shape and save some money later on when I have to haul out, then it may be a factor in getting one.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    That takes a bit of skill, not hard to learn but arguably harder than slapping on goop.
    And more time consuming as well.

    It sounds to me that you are intent on buying a boat that needs this "treatment",
    Not even close. I'm just looking at my options, and the more options, the better.

    Anytime someone turns up professing they know boats then asks questions about how to keep a hulk afloat with unorthodox methods then also claims its easy to make money out of boats.... Perhaps you should check your own levels of arrogance,
    Perhaps you don't know as much as you claim. It isn't arrogance to point out that money can be made rehabbing old boats. More than anything, it's a confession spotlighting what was available in my price range, and the fact that it doesn't take much to polish up a turd enough to give someone something to dream about. All I ever did was give them enough to warrant dreaming about fixing it up. I learned this from a master BS artist. There's simply nothing to boast about. I know all the tricks, but the tricks don't help much when I'm out in the middle of the ocean. See the problem?

    The fact is that you don't really care as you're just here to snot off some irrelevant and pretentious nonsense. Evidently you're just here to engage in ad hominem, and a bit of inept trolling. I'm not even using bait, and you're already struggling to remove the hook.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Mr. schnarkle I think you are aproaching this whole ideea from a not so right perspective. Let me try to explain myself. You seem to think that if you sheath the boat by whatever method this will somehow reduce maintenance to a minimum while living on the boat in the tropics. IMHO this is not true. Wooden boats rot from the inside, not the outside, and the biggest slice of maintenance in the tropics is varnish and paint.
    If a traditionally buildt wooden boat is sound, meaning no rot, no broken frames, good caulking, no leaking deck, etc. sheating is not necessary. The only thing you need to do for 10 years or so is keep the boat ventilated and painted. I would worry more about shipworms and keeping the antifoul in shape then about leaking. Living on the boat is actually the best way to care for one, just add salt water and air every morning.
    If the boat is in not so great shape, then a structural sheating is in order. If it's fiberglass, ferro, or cold molding is not important, as long as it is structural. If I were to choose I would always choose fiberglass set in polyester. Why? Because it's cheapest and most effective. Ferro and cold molding both require a sound structure, fiberglass is more forgiving.
    Polyester and fiberglass are both cheap and can be applied easy in sufficient quantity to make a sound hull. Yes the wood inside is going to keep rotting, but that is not the issue here.

    Your "poor man's fiberglass" will not work as you hope. While it can be used to bond fabric to plywood to simulate classic canvas decks, it is to rigid for planks, and will tear along the seams. I don't know what you pay for titebond and fabric, but polyester by the barrel and fiberglass by the pound is going to be cheap. And both need paint to protect them anyway.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    You seem to think that if you sheath the boat by whatever method this will somehow reduce maintenance to a minimum while living on the boat in the tropics.
    Well, yes and no. It's a method that is itself less time consuming and cheaper.

    the biggest slice of maintenance in the tropics is varnish and paint.
    I don't mind painting and varnishing the entire boat. I just haven't quite grasped what's really going on with paint that isn't fulfilled with cloth impregnated with glue or paint. I've seen some people use paint instead of glue as well. It seems a bit strange that paint is good when reinforced paint is bad. Why is that?

    The only thing you need to do for 10 years or so is keep the boat ventilated and painted.
    Sounds good, but here again a thicker coat of reinforced paint is not what the so-called experts are suggesting is a good idea. Why is a thin coat of paint preferable?

    I would worry more about shipworms and keeping the antifoul in shape then about leaking.
    I wasn't suggesting that it was a good idea to ignore antifouling paint or worms; just painting it over a thick coat of reinforced material impregnated with glue or paint.

    Living on the boat is actually the best way to care for one, just add salt water and air every morning.
    Is this good for paint? I can see how salt water is a preservative and good for wood, but I routinely see people painting their bilges. It still isn't clear why this would be a good idea, especially in salt water.

    While it can be used to bond fabric to plywood to simulate classic canvas decks, it is to rigid for planks, and will tear along the seams.
    I see no reason to think otherwise especially when using one or two layers, but what about 5 or 6?

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    As there is a lack of documented attempts of cloth set in Titebond, perhaps a small scale test is in order. Free boats aren't hard to come by. Might you pick up a smaller wood boat and sheath it in this way, then take it out a few times and see what happens? It would be very telling. Its an intriguing idea in any case.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    If you don't take it personally you'll get the point and the excellent advice offered which is that what you're suggesting is possible but a last resort end of the road option and that there are better ways to get what you are looking for. Perhaps a better way to approach this is to outline in more detail what you hope to achieve and your budget. Then you can tap into a huge body of experience on this board of people who have retired to liveaboard life on a shoestring budget. Some things you say just dont add up, i.e why wood and all its inherent maintenance issues when concrete boats are virtually being given away and would be an excellent choice? I can only presume you are really short on dough and are looking for a virtual giveaway to patch up, nothing wrong with that- its a favourite pastime around here! But as I said this slap on goop to make boat seaworthy is an old topic, anyway if you take it that people have your best interests at heart i.e help this old man into a safe boat to enjoy his retirement on a modest income then apparently negative comments such as mine will steer you in a more favourable direction.

    The short answer to your questions is that yes i have first hand experience of someone tacking chicken wire mesh onto a wooden hull and yes it works but essentially you are making a ferro cement hull over a wooden boat mould. Its cheap if you dont count labour and hardstand fees, effective and will see you out but its very, very heavy whihc can cause major stability issues if not done without sound advice. I have also met someone who skinned a boat with aliphatic wood glue, old bedsheets and latex paint, seemed to be holding up but personally unless I was sure the structure was 100% i wouldnt go offshore in it, (that guy was a full on dumpster diver btw and his workmanship was first class!). Covering with polyester is the same as ferro but a bit lighter and more expensive, no one does it anymore. Anything you suggest will work but there is no right answer as it will be a case by case scenario. No amount of goop or light sheathing is going to make a leaky old wooden boat into a good one. The absolute cheapest way it to learn how to caulk no question.
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    I see no reason to think otherwise especially when using one or two layers, but what about 5 or 6?
    Maybe enough to add up to at least 30oz per square yard:
    The fiberglass cloth was two layers of 7.5 oz biaxial (+/- 45 degrees) cloth stitched to .8 oz chopped strand mat. The orientation of the fiberglass (vertical or horizontal) was insignificant; in this https://www.jamestowndistributors.co...t.do?docId=405
    The thread where I buried that link illustrates some of the animosity that this subject (Paul might say just me, not the topic) can inspire:>) #36

    One more http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...the-water-line
    Last edited by MN Dave; 01-30-2019 at 05:20 PM.
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    I've done a couple of coating jobs on some wooden boats for commercial fishermen. What I did may not be the cheapest way for you but it gave the boat about another nine or ten years of working life life. One was a thirty-two foot plank on frame fishing boat built in the late twenties. Once she was dried out enough, we applied fiberglass mat and roving over the entire hull from the keel to the sheer line. The layup went: mat, mat roving, mat. It took a lot of material but the hull was pretty sound when done. After the second layer of mat we stapled the material with monel staples about every three inches in every direction. We also stapled the same way over the last layer of roving and mat. I think the boat is still afloat in the Puget Sound area after twenty years but the wood has probably deteriorated a bit after being sealed up like that.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    Well, yes and no. It's a method that is itself less time consuming and cheaper.
    No it's not. As noted by others here sheating is a quick way of extending the life of a boat that otherwise would be dead (or in need of a total rebuild wich would be cost prohibitive). Polyester sheating is simplest and cheapest. Ferro costs less in material but more in labour and you have to find the right crew of skilled plasterers that can apply an even thickness coating. Cold molding requires sound planking and centerline and is actually a good option only for very few boats since it has very precise requirements.
    A boat that only has minor problems is fixed cheaper and quicker by replacing the wood.

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    I don't mind painting and varnishing the entire boat. I just haven't quite grasped what's really going on with paint that isn't fulfilled with cloth impregnated with glue or paint. I've seen some people use paint instead of glue as well. It seems a bit strange that paint is good when reinforced paint is bad. Why is that?

    Sounds good, but here again a thicker coat of reinforced paint is not what the so-called experts are suggesting is a good idea. Why is a thin coat of paint preferable?
    Paint is engineered to the substrate it is applied to and the medium it will live in. Paint for wooden boats has to be flexible enough move with the wood, slow down water exchange and inhibit oxygen transfer. In order to be flexible thickness must be low. Basicly if you put on to much it gets brittle and cracks.
    Canvas covered canoes and decks use cotton fabric with just enough paint to make it waterproof. The wood for the substrate is thin and stable and moves little, and the paint is not a good glue anyway. When the wood is thicker and/or a less stable species irish felt is used beneath the canvas to make sure the canvas is not glued to the wood, or a really slow drying thick beding like white lead paste. Glueing canvas to wood has been done in double plank systems where planks are thin and the glueing was to the inner course of planking wich will move less.

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    Is this good for paint? I can see how salt water is a preservative and good for wood, but I routinely see people painting their bilges. It still isn't clear why this would be a good idea, especially in salt water.
    Bilges are painted for several reasons. First to slow down water and oxigen transfer, second because you can clean painted bilges better. Protecting the wood from all the dirt is important, not to mention oil or fuel spills.
    In a sound wooden boat most water in the bilge will come from condensation, ocasional rain, etc. not from the ocean. If you have clean ocean water in the bilge you either had a wave come on board or a structural problem developing.
    Decks and topsides should be regularly (meaning at least daily) hosed with water because the sun dries out the wood. It's a common complain in hot climates to have topside seams open in harbour, not to mention the deck seams. How the paint feels about it is irelevant, paint and varnish are consumables. Paint is more durable and easy to touch up so one sees full painted boats in tropical settings and full varnished or oiled boats in northern climate.

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    I see no reason to think otherwise especially when using one or two layers, but what about 5 or 6?
    Same reason as with paint. The more layers you got, the more brittle it becomes. PVA glue soaked canvas is neither strong enough to inhibit wood movement, nor flexible enough to move with it. Please keep in mind we are not talking 1/4" planking here like canoes use. It works on plywood because plywood works very little, and what movement it has it executes as a panel. The biggest problem with planking is that you have a lot of seams and every plank moves differently.
    Another problem I see is that Titebond II is a modified PVA glue, not rated for immersion.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    I've just skimmed this, so probably already mentioned; wood can work itself away from the sheathing if not completely sealed.
    If you wrap the outside in glass, but the inside goes through cycles of wet/dry (dry/humid air), the glass will come off.

    Wood expands, glass doesn't stretch.
    Philip K. Dick 'Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away'.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    I'm betting you're not going to even consider this, but I've seen a couple of boats that were sheathed in cor-ten steel. One was a 1916 model.

    I keep wondering how that can possibly work ....

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    I think you might find more hands on experience with these techniques hanging out at shipyards and talking to the yard managers as they get the history of some boats.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I've just skimmed this, so probably already mentioned; wood can work itself away from the sheathing if not completely sealed.
    If you wrap the outside in glass, but the inside goes through cycles of wet/dry (dry/humid air), the glass will come off.

    Wood expands, glass doesn't stretch.
    Makes sense to me.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    what you're suggesting is possible but a last resort end of the road option
    I'm not clear on why that would be because when I think of "last resort end of the road option", I'm not looking at viable wood planks to glue fabric to. When I'm looking at a boat that has boards slowly and silently sinking into the mud because the entire bilge is stuffed full of foam, then I'm starting to look at the last resort which is very shallow water, or as the case may be, stripping all identifying numbers, etc. and hiding it in very deep, dark, murky water.
    Perhaps a better way to approach this is to outline in more detail what you hope to achieve
    I'm looking at what others have achieved and wondering if the same thing could be achieved by doing something similar ferrocement, but without the necessity of having to bulk up, or the need to repair that nagging hernia again.

    Budgets only limit one's imagination. When the budget is down to a few bucks, that's when people really begin to come up with ideas. Has anyone considered utilizing epoxy impregnated corregated cardboard?
    Then you can tap into a huge body of experience on this board of people who have retired to liveaboard life on a shoestring budget.
    The budget is irrelevant. It reminds me of the yacht salesmen who ask me what I want to spend on a boat. I tell them I don't want to spend anything. I'm not engaging in retail therapy here. I'm not just out looking to spend money so I can feel better about myself. Budgets only limit one's imagination. When the budget is down to a few bucks, that's when people really begin to come up with ideas. Has anyone considered utilizing epoxy impregnated corregated cardboard?
    Some things you say just dont add up, i.e why wood and all its inherent maintenance issues when concrete boats are virtually being given away and would be an excellent choice?
    Perhaps you are living in a virtual reality because some of the most ridiculous ferrocement boats are not being given away. I've seen some boatyards want $20k for an empty hull that's just taking up space in their yard. They could start getting rental fees from some kid with stars in his eyes, but they'd rather just let it sit there for free. Ferrocement boats can sometimes be had for cheap, but the trick is to see them as soon as they go on sale. Of course this is the trick for any boat. I see these awesome deals on fiberglass, wood, ferrocement boats, but as soon as I call, I find out that the boat is being surveyed by its future owner or it just sold.
    I can only presume you are really short on dough...
    Your presumptions do seem to be quite limited along with your ideas. One can only wish your false assumptions were just as limited. Just because I may have money doesn't mean I'm interested in throwing it around. I'm not the Bring Out Another Thousand guy.
    ...and are looking for a virtual giveaway to patch up, nothing wrong with that- its a favourite pastime around here!
    Along with trolling. I'm not opposed to boats being given to me, but I'm also not focusing my attention on free boats. I'm looking at boats that are in fairly good condition, but as is the case with most boats, they will eventually need some work done to them. As I mentioned earlier, I watched a guy apply something to the bottom of his wood boat that appeared to be some sort of plaster of paris, or maybe it was poor man's fiberglass, maybe it was flour and water paste, maybe it was something else. I'm not looking at what's left of the Kon Tiki II for my next trip accross the ocean blue. I'm looking at some variations on ideas that have proven to be effective.
    But as I said this slap on goop to make boat seaworthy is an old topic,
    Yep, and as I said, I'm not an idealist. I'm not looking for the "purist" perspective of restoring a wood plank boat to its original glory. The guy who takes each and every piece of wood from a boat and fabricates an entire new boat is not going to inspire my next wet dream. I just noticed some guy who did just that with some 100' ship. Yeah, I don't have money to burn like some people obviously do. I'm the guy who wants to fabricate my next boat from a 3D printer as soon as they become affordable. In the meantime, I'll settle for a hotwire cutting up styrofoam, and covering it with some poor man's fiberglass. Actually, now that I think of it, there's a few people who have done just that and they haven't had any problems either.
    anyway if you take it that people have your best interests at heart i.e help this old man into a safe boat to enjoy his retirement on a modest income then apparently negative comments such as mine will steer you in a more favourable direction.
    The problem with this analysis is that I'm not looking to be steered into another boat. I'm already looking at other boats. I'm not avoiding fiberglass boats. I'm actively looking at them, but I like to keep my options open.
    I'm also not opposed to running some cotton, or hokum into a few seems, and caulking over it. Paint doesn't bother me either, but then paint can crack when those boards start moving too so the rubberized paint looks promising, and whenever someone does come up with these ideas that prove to be so fantastic, one of the things I've noticed about great ideas is that they tend to be based upon other great ideas.
    The short answer to your questions is that yes i have first hand experience of someone tacking chicken wire mesh onto a wooden hull and yes it works but essentially you are making a ferro cement hull over a wooden boat mould.
    No, this is not essentially what you're doing. It is effectively what you are doing. It is skipping over a whole lot of work that isn't worth it. In most cases, the cement isn't even pounded through, but simply smeared over it. The crazy thing is that it still works fairly well.
    Its cheap if you dont count labour and hardstand fees,
    It's still quite cheap with labor and fees. It would be exorbitantly expensive if you were actually pounding cement through four to six layers of tied, wired matrix. You're conflating the costs to build a ferrocement boat with smearing cement onto stapled chickenwire. There is no comparison. The former is labor and time intensive, while the latter is considerably less of both. It's unskilled labor. If you can find someone with a strong back and dope problem needing money for his next fix, it's a "no-brainer".
    ... effective and will see you out but its very, very heavy whihc can cause major stability issues if not done without sound advice.
    Poppycock. It's stupid simple. I know experts who have built numerous ferrocement boats who have no problem admitting that any moron who knows how to stretch chickenwire tight, and mix cement can do it. It's not rocket science, and it's not really all that heavy. Unless you're doing it to boats under 40', it doesn't matter. An extra inch or so more in the water makes no real difference to stability. You didn't do this to a canoe? (Speaking of canoes, there's yet another example of stretching fabric over a wood hull, and impregnating it with paint. What do they call that stuff? It's some kind of heavy lead paste/putty?. Why wouldn't that work?) No one is going to be complaining about stability issues unless they're not used to hauling extra weight to begin with. Most of the people doing these things are for commercial applications where extra weight is a given(e.g. commercial fishing vessels etc.), and more often than not, preferable to cruising around all night with an empty hold.
    I have also met someone who skinned a boat with aliphatic wood glue, old bedsheets and latex paint, seemed to be holding up but personally unless I was sure the structure was 100% i wouldnt go offshore in it,
    So now we finally get to an admission that you've actually seen someone use poor man's fiberglass, AND with favorable results. So not only do we now have yet another successful example, but one from someone who has reservations. Why? It isn't as if I'm suggesting that cloth impregnated with glue and paint is going to provide structure to mush. Nor would I suggest anyone go offshore in a boat that has issues with structural integrity. This isn't the issue. The issue is how well would this work on a boat that's worth doing this to.
    Anything you suggest will work but there is no right answer as it will be a case by case scenario.
    I used to know some fortune tellers who talked like that. Politicians, science buffs, and the run of the mill B.S. artist all are quite adept at saying a whole lotta nothing as well. Perhaps you will now expound on how well kataphatic techniques work with sound and fury signifying nothing?
    No amount of goop or light sheathing is going to make a leaky old wooden boat into a good one. The absolute cheapest way it to learn how to caulk no question.
    Spoken like a true cult leader. Although I don't get the impression you have much of a following. People take handfulls of sawdust and let it just float up into the cracks with the current flowing into the bilge. The guy I used to work for would take pieces of old plywood, and cut them into different shapes and sizes, pre-drill some holes, put some bottom paint on them, and then when his or some other boat he had just picked up would start sinking, he'd slather some caulk over it, jump overboard, and screw it in over the leaks. It was fun to just sit there watching the geysers suddenly stop spouting up in the middle of the bilge. Seeing is believeing, and I became a believer.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Frustrating, isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    I'm looking at boats that are in fairly good condition, but as is the case with most boats, they will eventually need some work done to them.
    Defining and redefining the type of boat may eventually get through.

    The keys to success are the level of restoration needed prior to applying the coating and long term interior maintenance for a skin to work.

    Most of the people here do know what they are talking about, but may find it very hard to understand what you are talking about. There are regrettable exceptions.

    We all know that insufficient preparation is a disaster. Most of us know about the disaster part but are a bit vague on the restoration and maintenance needed. Yes, repeated moisture cycling from saturated to bone dry will cause any coating to fail. So how do you slow the process and avoid the extremes? Rotting frames and planks tell a story about long exposure to excess moisture.

    A thin fiberglass skin on a traditionally constructed wooden boat will crack and delaminate. The WEST System, strip plank, plus diagonal layers plus fiberglass skin works because it prevents the wood from ever getting saturated with moisture.

    The only thin cloth skin impregnated with resin that has been successfully applied to traditional woeden hulls is cascover. The cloth was Nylon, which does stretch quite a bit. http://www.eventides.org.uk/tip.21.htm A modern alternative might be Nylon impregnated with polyurethane, which is pretty much the only resin that adheres reasonably well to Nylon. The can of worms here is the question of a coating that will do the job without the Nylon. There is probably a polyurea or polyurethane that will produce a tough enough skin on a sound hull to reduce long term maintenance. There are some other elastomers such as EPDM and Hyplalon that might work. Cascover was paintable, which can be a major issue with some, especially EPDM.

    A thick fiberglass skin has been used by Vaitses. If you paint the bilge and keep it dry you can minimize the moisture cycling. That will prevent delamination. It tends to work best on new construction and has a spotty record on older hulls. Most boats are sheathed with a thinner skin and that will crack. If you apply 30 plus ounces of glass cloth per square yard, it will have enough strength and stiffness to prevent cracking as long as you keep standing water out of the bilge. Traditionally caulked and painted carvel is more tolerant of a wet bilge.


    (Speaking of canoes, there's yet another example of stretching fabric over a wood hull, and impregnating it with paint. What do they call that stuff? It's some kind of heavy lead paste/putty?. Why wouldn't that work?)
    Wood and canvas canoes. Lead is essentially just a pigment and thickener. It has the side benefit of plasticizing linseed oil based paints, which has made less toxic fillers that perform as well difficult to find. The skin is dense, but thin, so not all that heavy. The canvas is pretty well saturated with the paint, but it doesn't penetrate enough to stick the canvas to the hull. When you replace it, it peels very easily. It takes a month or more to set up after application. I don't think it scales up well on larger craft.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 01-31-2019 at 04:26 PM.
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Shnarckle
    Are you for real? Why would anyone want to help you avoid sinking and drowning in the Caribbean?

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    It is kind of a question-with-obvious answer ... if the boat is good enough that it doesn't need skinning, then why skin it ? But if the boat is so bad it needs skinning, then the skin won't work because the structure that holds it all together is unstable.

    So the whole plan is kind of a circle jerk .....

    It did start me thinking a little tho - fasteners. They are the bane of a wood boat. With today's very powerful epoxy glues, why not treenails ? Drill the hole, dip a dowl in glue, slide it in. No electrolysis. Easy to repair. Anybody tried this ?

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    The guy I used to work for would take pieces of old plywood, and cut them into different shapes and sizes, pre-drill some holes, put some bottom paint on them, and then when his or some other boat he had just picked up would start sinking, he'd slather some caulk over it, jump overboard, and screw it in over the leaks. It was fun to just sit there watching the geysers suddenly stop spouting up in the middle of the bilge. Seeing is believeing, and I became a believer.
    Well when you start sinking any quick do or die method that works is fine then and there. That's a stop gap - not a repair.
    Didn't you say you wanted something for 15 to 20 years?
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    I am the only one who sees this is schooner guy? Part trois.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    The schooner guy asked legitimate questions about off the wall engineering.
    Specifically how big could a strip plank boat be built.
    Questions about slathering dukee on a vessel is quite a different thing.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    The writing style, the banderillas, the need for attention, they all look familiar.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    How many schooner guys were there? Schooner russ sounded like he was in his mid teens, so yeah, it does sound like an older version.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  23. #58
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Polyester sheating is simplest and cheapest. Ferro costs less in material but more in labour and you have to find the right crew of skilled plasterers that can apply an even thickness coating.
    Skilled plasterers are not required to apply cement. The skill is in getting the right mix, and getting it on before it sets up. They are not thinking about applying an even thickness. What they are doing is pounding cement through an armiture you can barely even see through, and it must be tight enough to prevent it from bending or warping due to all that pounding. Once that is accomplished, one need only scrape it level with the top layer of wire mesh. The layer that is applied over that is just enough to make it smooth. The problem isn't technique but finding those with the brute strength, and endurance to literally pound sand all day long. If one wants to bring in A single plasterer or two for a 50 to 75' boat ( a crew would simply be standing around doing nothing), it would only be to do that last layer. Anyone who knows how to spread bondo over door dings would work just as well.
    Paint for wooden boats has to be flexible enough move with the wood, slow down water exchange and inhibit oxygen transfer. In order to be flexible thickness must be low. Basicly if you put on to much it gets brittle and cracks.
    Makes sense until that thin layer of paint gets scraped, and water gets in, no?

    Bilges are painted for several reasons. First to slow down water and oxigen transfer, second because you can clean painted bilges better. Protecting the wood from all the dirt is important, not to mention oil or fuel spills.
    I can't count the number of wood plank boats I've seen that were falling apart, but for some strange reason, those oil soaked planks in the engine compartment were always in tact. Go figure.
    If you have clean ocean water in the bilge you either had a wave come on board or a structural problem developing.
    Structural problem? Like a loose hose clamp? A thru hull fitting's tattered hose, perhaps? I had an elbow bust on the exhuast that let sea water pour into the bilge. Then there's those bilge pump switches that short out and eventually allow sea water to pour in through the scuppers.
    Decks and topsides should be regularly (meaning at least daily) hosed with water because the sun dries out the wood.
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone ever carry out this prescription for the decks of their wood plank boat. Seriously, other than cleaning; how often do you ever see people watering their wood plank boats? I've seen it a total of never.
    It's a common complain in hot climates to have topside seams open in harbour, not to mention the deck seams. How the paint feels about it is irelevant, paint and varnish are consumables. Paint is more durable and easy to touch up so one sees full painted boats in tropical settings and full varnished or oiled boats in northern climate.
    I have no idea what you're talking about here. It sounds like your suggesting that dried out wood should be soaked with water. I don't know what your point is in painting in the tropics verses varnishing in the northern latitudes either. I know I don't much care for walking on a hot teak deck down in the tropics, so I can see why I'd prefer white paint over scalding teak, but that's about it.
    The more layers you got, the more brittle it becomes.
    Enter rubberized paint. Perhaps rubberized paint won't stick to wood. Paint it over a layer of poor man's fiberglass, and presto: problem solved.
    PVA glue soaked canvas is neither strong enough to inhibit wood movement, nor flexible enough to move with it.
    You make it sound like PVA glue is completely worthless for anything other than arts and crafts projects for third graders, and maybe not even for that application either. I don't know how to reconcile your views with those who attempt to remove it, only to end up taking the wood off with it. However, you do make me wonder if only one layer may be all that is necessary.
    The biggest problem with planking is that you have a lot of seams and every plank moves differently.
    Here again, you make it sound like we're floating along in rough water with timbers strapped together with braided strands of fibrous tree bark. I don't see how planks could move that much without sawing themselves down to nothing. My suspicion is that a few layers of glue impregnated cloth may produce a few torn sections over a few years, but I seriously doubt each and every seem is going to tear cloth.
    Another problem I see is that Titebond II is a modified PVA glue, not rated for immersion.
    That does sound like "we have a problem Houston".

  24. #59
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Favorite View Post
    It is kind of a question-with-obvious answer ... if the boat is good enough that it doesn't need skinning, then why skin it ? But if the boat is so bad it needs skinning, then the skin won't work because the structure that holds it all together is unstable.

    So the whole plan is kind of a circle jerk .....

    It did start me thinking a little tho - fasteners. They are the bane of a wood boat. With today's very powerful epoxy glues, why not treenails ? Drill the hole, dip a dowl in glue, slide it in. No electrolysis. Easy to repair. Anybody tried this ?
    There we go. Now we got someone who is thinking outside the box. That's what I like to see.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by keelhauler View Post
    Shnarckle
    Are you for real?
    What do you mean by 'real'?

    Why would anyone want to help you avoid sinking and drowning in the Caribbean?
    That's a question better asked by those who have that ability. Why do you even care enough to ask in the first place?

  26. #61
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Well when you start sinking any quick do or die method that works is fine then and there. That's a stop gap - not a repair.
    Didn't you say you wanted something for 15 to 20 years?
    One man's stop gap is another one's repair. I'm looking at some wood plank boats right now that are in better than new condition with freshly refastened, new planks, etc. The boats are a steal so I could probably just live on them for the next 20 years and just let them rot stepping off them like that scene from Pirates of the Caribbean where Johnny Depp steps off his sinking boat's mast onto the pier.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Better than new. Heh heh

  28. #63
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Better than new. Heh heh
    Better than new is an understatement. The bilges are spotless. The planks are in pristine condition. Just refastened with larger silicon bronze fittings. The entire transom was replaced. All new cotton, caulk, fresh bottom job. There isn't a drop of rot, mold, dirt, dust, etc. anywhere. The engines are freshly rebuilt with a freshwater cooling system. The windows and frames are all brand new. It's got brand new teak and holly decking throughout. SS sinks, new carpeting, headliner, etc. They're practically giving it away. Everything works like it's supposed to. The only thing that I'd probably want to add is an auto helm, and a swim platform on the back.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    That seems like a much better buy than investing a ton of effort in an unproven technique on a questionable hull.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  30. #65
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    Better than new is an understatement. The bilges are spotless. The planks are in pristine condition. Just refastened with larger silicon bronze fittings. The entire transom was replaced. All new cotton, caulk, fresh bottom job. There isn't a drop of rot, mold, dirt, dust, etc. anywhere. The engines are freshly rebuilt with a freshwater cooling system. The windows and frames are all brand new. It's got brand new teak and holly decking throughout. SS sinks, new carpeting, headliner, etc. They're practically giving it away. Everything works like it's supposed to. The only thing that I'd probably want to add is an auto helm, and a swim platform on the back.

    • Take the pic and upload it to your computer.

      Click on the square "insert image" icon at the top of the reply box.

      Select "From Computer".

      Now click on "Select Files".

      That will give you a box where you can find your photos that are on your computer.

      Click on the photo you want to post. The name of the photo will appear in the box.

      Click on "Upload File(s)" and wait until it is uploaded.

      Click on "Post Quick Reply". The photo won't actually show full size until you post the reply.

      Save these instructions for further use. Once you've done it a few of times it becomes intuitive.



  31. #66
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    Better than new is an understatement. The bilges are spotless. The planks are in pristine condition. Just refastened with larger silicon bronze fittings. The entire transom was replaced. All new cotton, caulk, fresh bottom job. There isn't a drop of rot, mold, dirt, dust, etc. anywhere. The engines are freshly rebuilt with a freshwater cooling system. The windows and frames are all brand new. It's got brand new teak and holly decking throughout. SS sinks, new carpeting, headliner, etc. They're practically giving it away. Everything works like it's supposed to. The only thing that I'd probably want to add is an auto helm, and a swim platform on the back.
    Stop it , just stfu .

  32. #67
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Well dear God. If it's got teak and holly decks your best bet is probably to slather on up with drop cloths and tb2. Do that, and you oughtta be good to go

  33. #68
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    That seems like a much better buy than investing a ton of effort in an unproven technique on a questionable hull.
    Sure, but I like to see what's available as well. I also like to see what new and innovative techniques people are using and how effective they are. When someone comes along with a technique that makes wood plank boats more popular for those who aren't all that interested in learning how to refasten or re plank boats, those boats become more valuable.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    • Take the pic and upload it to your computer.

      Click on the square "insert image" icon at the top of the reply box.

      Select "From Computer".

      Now click on "Select Files".

      That will give you a box where you can find your photos that are on your computer.

      Click on the photo you want to post. The name of the photo will appear in the box.

      Click on "Upload File(s)" and wait until it is uploaded.

      Click on "Post Quick Reply". The photo won't actually show full size until you post the reply.

      Save these instructions for further use. Once you've done it a few of times it becomes intuitive.
    Thanks for the instructions. I'll post the pictures after I buy it. I'm planning on getting it surveyed next week.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Stop it , just stfu .
    Given that these old wood plank boats are so unreliable and untrustworthy out in open water, I'll probably also have to stuff the bilges full of foam just to be on the safe side. Kind of a shame though considering there's not a single piece of fly crap on the entire boat. It's like the boat was hermetically sealed right after it was built, and just unwrapped today.

    It's not like they're giving it away. It's as if they're paying someone to take it off their hands. It's crazy! I just noticed another one not too far away from this one as well which I may have to check out. It's also crazy cheap, but a bit larger and evidently in just as good condition. I haven't looked at that one close enough to tell though so we'll see.

    Maybe the owners will get into a bidding war to see who can go the lowest to guarantee the sale...

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