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Thread: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

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    Default wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    I looked for similar threads to this one, but couldn't find any so...

    I just sold a couple of sailboats a little less than a year ago, but am already looking for another boat to cruise over to the Bahamas, and perhaps down to the Caribbean. I don't really want to spend a whole lot of money so I'm looking at some options that I've seen other use in the past including, but not limited to:

    1.ferrocement: Affixing a matrix (e.g. chicken wire), and impregnating it with cement
    2.Poor man's fiberglass. (Tightbond II impregnated into painter's drop cloth)
    3. DragonShield Polyuria paint
    I've seen people utilize these techniques to extend the life of their boats another 15 to 20 years. I may not live another 20 years so it looks to be a perfect fit.


    So I've seen old shrimp boats covered in ferrocement to give the shrimpers another 15 years to their leaky hulls. A pretty good deal verses buying a new one. The boat only sits about an inch or so lower in the water, and it's out in rough water so it works.

    I was in a boat yard years ago and there was a guy who had recently purchased a quite large Chinese junk ("Free China") He was applying what looked like strips of cloth soaked in plaster to the bottom. I asked him what he was using, but have since forgotten. He had the boat back in the water right next to mine and it never pumped out once for over a year. I sold my boat so I don't know what happened after that.

    I've also been using poor man's fiberglass on a few projects at home, and find it incredibly strong and water resistant. So I'm looking at how a few layers of this stuff might work on some old wood plank boat.

    I haven't purchased one yet, but I did have a wood plank boat about 25 years ago. I helped a guy salvage it from the mud, plopped a rebuilt 671 jimmy in, and did what I could to keep it afloat for the next few years while I used it for fishing, etc. The thing leaked like crazy, but just focusing on the biggest leaks wasn't all that big of a deal. I would just run it up onto a beach, seal the leaks with splash zone, or some caulk, a butt block, some plywood, etc. and wait for the tide. It works. It's not ideal, but then I'm not an idealist either. I'm just looking to get down to the Caribbean on something with good bones and wondering if something like this would work for a few years; maybe 10 or 15.


    There are videos of shipwrights using DragonShield on wood plank boats on youtube. These guys seem to look like they know what they're doing, but this paint is effectively indestructible so I don't know how it would work in allowing the wood to swell. The promotional videos for Polyuria paint products show paint being sprayed over a cardboard box filled with water. They even spray it over the surface of the water encapsulating the water inside the box. The government uses it to prevent buildings from being destroyed in bomb blasts. I wouldn't be using that stuff because the cost is prohibitively expensive, but there are other significantly less expensive brands that offer similar quality without a 50 year guarantee.

    Right now, my favorite is the poor man's fiberglass because I can see how great it works on the projects I've done so far, and it seems to have worked out well for those cases where I've seen it used on boats as well.

    Any suggestions? Should I encapsulate the inside of the hull as well, or just the outside? I'm thinking of just going from the boot stripe down with somewhere between two to four layers, then a few coats of ablative paint over that.

    The pros seem to be that it's cheap, quick, non toxic and stupid simple.


    The cons?

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    A decent fiberglass boat can be had for pretty cheap. Get a solid boat from the 70's, invest in the rig (which you would have to do anyway), and go sailing. Makes more sense than rehabbing a tired hull just for an extra 10 years.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    A decent fiberglass boat can be had for pretty cheap. Get a solid boat from the 70's, invest in the rig (which you would have to do anyway), and go sailing. Makes more sense than rehabbing a tired hull just for an extra 10 years.
    It would definitely make more sense to get a solid fiberglass hull IF that's what is available. While I am definitely keeping my eyes peeled for any and all options, my question wasn't in regards to all options available, but to the option of "glassing" over a wood plank hull. I really don't like working with fiberglass to begin with though which is yet another reason why I really like "poor man's fiberglass"

    As I pointed out earlier, I may not have ten years so I seriously don't care if it lasts no more than ten years

    I'd like to know if there's anyone out there who may have seen this procedure utilized and what the effects would be on the hull. For example, would the material crack, and if so, how long afterwards? Poor man's fiberglass appears to me to be strong enough to lock up the planks which if I remember correctly may not be such a great idea as they are designed to move around and flex.

    I've seen some boatyards guarantee their bottom jobs for ten years, and most people recommend hauling a boat out every five years anyways so if I have to do some minor repairs on some torn cloth, who really cares?

    Again, my aim is to have as many options available, and this may be a better option if I can get a good wood plank boat nearby for a cheap price than a good fiberglass hull on the other side of the continent.

    I just found a really good deal on a wood plank boat that doesn't even need any work. It's a thousand miles away though. I may go get it anyways, but if it means I can eventually coat the whole bottom in cloth when push comes to shove, it's an even better deal for me.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    There are sunken boats all round eastern North Carolina after hurricane Florence's visit last year. Probably most can be had for the fee of getting them out and away. Some are on land and may be more costly to remove. I see one a couple times each week about 100 feet in front of a boat ramp in New Bern. Its heeled over and probably about 50% under water.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    There are sunken boats all round eastern North Carolina after hurricane Florence's visit last year. Probably most can be had for the fee of getting them out and away. Some are on land and may be more costly to remove. I see one a couple times each week about 100 feet in front of a boat ramp in New Bern. Its heeled over and probably about 50% under water.
    I've done my time salvaging boats so I'm more interested in a boat that's already in fairly good condition. Floating boats was fun and challenging when I was young, but then so was I. Now I'm just looking for something to get me down to the Caribbean for a few years that doesn't take a whole lot of work. I know boats are a lot of work, but if I can skip over the major jobs and focus on the little stuff, I'm good to go.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Wood boats are inherently much more expensive than fiberglass, which is the main reason fiberglass is far more common today. At a given price, a wood boat is going to be in far worse shape than a fiberglass hull. There are lots of glass hulled boats around from cheap to free. Those in poor shape usually need engine work, upholstery, paint, etc., while the hull is relatively sound. Heading out to sea in an unsound wood boat is a bad idea. Looking for a tired-looking, but sound glass boat would far better suit you needs.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Wood boats are inherently much more expensive than fiberglass, which is the main reason fiberglass is far more common today.
    That inherent price is a sunk cost of production. I'm not buying a brand new wood boat. Hence the subject of this thread.

    At a given price, a wood boat is going to be in far worse shape than a fiberglass hull.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I can find wood boats for days that are in great shape. Some times they're in better shape than their fiberglass counterparts. Again, this is why I'm asking this question.

    There are lots of glass hulled boats around from cheap to free.
    As I've already posted, I'm looking at those as well. However, the topic of this thread is using techniques on wood boats; not fiberglass.

    Heading out to sea in an unsound wood boat is a bad idea.
    I have no intention of heading out to sea in an unsound wood boat. My intention was to find out if there is anyone here who might know something about applying cloth impregnated with Tightbond II, or perhaps a good quality polyuria paint to the bottom of a wood boat. After receiving a half a dozen or so replies, it seems that no one has comprehended the subject of this thread, or at the very least no one is interested in responding to what was actually requested.

    Looking for a tired-looking, but sound glass boat would far better suit you needs.
    Not if I'm looking for some advice on the benefits and/or possible problems in applying "poor man's fiberglass".

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    The biggest con to what you propose is that it is outside the mainstream for what is considered best practice for the repair and maintenance of plank on frame wooden boats, so there is no track record to show whether or not this is a good idea. It could help get the boat thru the next 10-20 years or it could fail the first time the boat hits rough water. At first blush it would appear that neither cloth bedded in titebond nor rubberized paint of some sort would provide the rigidity that fero-cement or heavy fiberglassing provide to reinforce a clapped out old boat, as in the case of your example of an old fishing boat being given a few more years of life.

    Another con is doing the work itself, which would include surveying, repairing, and prepping the boat prior to sheathing, as well as the actual sheathing.

    Bottom line, sounds easier than it will be in practice to get a good job done, then there is no guarantee that is will last as long as you hope. Or it could be fine, who knows.
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    <snip> I'm looking at some options that I've seen other use in the past including, but not limited to:

    1.ferrocement: Affixing a matrix (e.g. chicken wire), and impregnating it with cement
    2.Poor man's fiberglass. (Tightbond II impregnated into painter's drop cloth)
    3. DragonShield Polyuria paint
    <snip>
    Where to start? There are many threads on encapsulation with various materials, mostly fiberglass. The common denominator has always been that the boat has to be basically sound and the shell has to be substantial and you need to do a lot of prep work to make it last. The other common advice is "NO, DONT DO IT!" I think that it generally good advice, but with care, you can pull it off.

    You have to dry the boat and keep it dry. If you wrap a bad apple in a plastic bag, you will have a bag of foul mush inside of a week. If you freeze dry the apple first, it may not be very appetizing, but as long as the bag keeps it dry, it will last for years. It is easier to pickle the apple than freeze dry, but a bag of pickled funky apple isn't so good. Wood is slower to go runny, but the end result is the same. Dry it out, build a shell and keep it dry, you have something. Soak the wood with a preservative like Tim-Bor and coat it well, and it might last for a while. Just coating a rotting boat with a shell will make it rot faster. If the shell is strong enough, you can scrape the boat out and use the shell, but that isn't much of a solution.

    1.ferrocement: Affixing a matrix (e.g. chicken wire), and impregnating it with cement
    It will add a lot of weight. Ferrocement didn't die out because it worked well. A company in Maine studied the properties of ferrocement. When they looked at various ratios of cement to steel, all of the properties were best when the ratio was 0% cement, 100% steel. They decided to build steel boats.

    2.Poor man's fiberglass. (Tightbond II impregnated into painter's drop cloth)
    First, Titebond II is not as water resistant as Titebond III. OK, I don't know enough to say how badly water saturation will reduce the properties of Titebond III, but this sounds worse than PL Premium on Dacron. You can make a SOF boat with PL Premium and Dacron skin. Using it to cover a wood hull, I have my reservations. This sounds like an old boat coating called Cascover. Google this: site:forum.woodenboat.com cascover. Cascover is an old nylon set in two component resorcinol-formaldehyde resin adhesive coating. See also #12

    3. DragonShield Polyuria paint
    Polyurea is incredibly tough stuff. I have heard of it being used for blast resistant walls and to resist cavitation on ship rudders where other coatings failed quickly. (Caused by proximity to the propellers.) http://specialty-products.com/spi_pr...agonshield-bc/ This would act like the poor man's fiberglass with the advantage that it wouldn't need the cloth. A fairly thick coating might make you a poor man if you aren't already. I didn't check the price, so insert a smiley face and ignore the comment.
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    That inherent price is a sunk cost of production. I'm not buying a brand new wood boat. Hence the subject of this thread.

    I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I can find wood boats for days that are in great shape. Some times they're in better shape than their fiberglass counterparts. Again, this is why I'm asking this question.

    As I've already posted, I'm looking at those as well. However, the topic of this thread is using techniques on wood boats; not fiberglass.

    I have no intention of heading out to sea in an unsound wood boat. My intention was to find out if there is anyone here who might know something about applying cloth impregnated with Tightbond II, or perhaps a good quality polyuria paint to the bottom of a wood boat. After receiving a half a dozen or so replies, it seems that no one has comprehended the subject of this thread, or at the very least no one is interested in responding to what was actually requested.

    Not if I'm looking for some advice on the benefits and/or possible problems in applying "poor man's fiberglass".
    So what you are saying is that you may be new here but you weren't born yesterday?

    New posters have no reputation and it takes a while to gain respect. We mean well, but don't pull punches if we think you are going to get yourself in trouble. No offense intended, just trying to save you from yourself, whether you need it or not.
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    "Just coating a rotting boat with a shell will make it rot faster."

    Very true.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    So what you are saying is that you may be new here but you weren't born yesterday?

    New posters have no reputation and it takes a while to gain respect. We mean well, but don't pull punches if we think you are going to get yourself in trouble. No offense intended, just trying to save you from yourself, whether you need it or not.
    So what you are saying is that this thread is a waste of bandwidth?

    Obviously, the message here is that this fellow likes boats, which is a good thing. But he can't afford one suitable for what he wants to do with it. That pretty much makes the discussion a waste of time, doesn't it?

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Please don't shoot the messenger, I'm not promoting it but look into the "Cutts Method."

    And there's a guy who posted quite a few articles here about using PL Premium.

    If you have a New York Thirty any of these stopgaps would be a bad idea but for a short-term fix for an old clunker ? Might be reasonable ?

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Favorite View Post
    Please don't shoot the messenger, I'm not promoting it but look into the "Cutts Method."

    And there's a guy who posted quite a few articles here about using PL Premium.

    If you have a New York Thirty any of these stopgaps would be a bad idea but for a short-term fix for an old clunker ? Might be reasonable ?
    The guy that was a proponent of PL Premium also went through and fixed a pile of structural issues before he did it and he acknowledged that it was basically a huge experiment and that while he was hopeful he didn't really know how it was going to shake out. The reports back that he has made seem fine so far but he has also only really reported light duty use of the boat.
    -Jim

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post

    I have no intention of heading out to sea in an unsound wood boat. My intention was to find out if there is anyone here who might know something about applying cloth impregnated with Tightbond II, or perhaps a good quality polyuria paint to the bottom of a wood boat. After receiving a half a dozen or so replies, it seems that no one has comprehended the subject of this thread, or at the very least no one is interested in responding to what was actually requested.



    Not if I'm looking for some advice on the benefits and/or possible problems in applying "poor man's fiberglass".
    Unless you do one of two things you will have an unsafe boat with little extension to its life.
    First choice - sheath it with enough structural material, Ferrocrete or GRP, that will be the equivalent of a safe boats structure so that the rotten nail sick wood becomes irrelevant.
    Second choice - fix the boat's problems so that it is structurally sound and then sheath it with an abrasion/worm resistant skin like GRP or Cascover.

    GRP for abrasion resistance does not have to be structural, Cascover is not structural, "Poor mans GRP" is not structural, may not be very abrasion resistant nor worm resistant.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    So what you are saying is that this thread is a waste of bandwidth?

    Obviously, the message here is that this fellow likes boats, which is a good thing. But he can't afford one suitable for what he wants to do with it. That pretty much makes the discussion a waste of time, doesn't it?
    Now Bob, I was just saying that the OP should take the advice indicating that he had asked a dumb question with a grain of salt. He asked how do do one thing and got an ear full, or screen full, of advice saying that he should drop it and do something else. If you are worried about wasting bandwidth, what are you doing here?

    You don't know his budget. He seems to have some experience. I don't think he is planning a rubber sack full of rotten boat. We need more information before jumping to conclusions.
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    The biggest con to what you propose is that it is outside the mainstream for what is considered best practice for the repair and maintenance of plank on frame wooden boats,
    Hi Jim, and thanks for answering my question. If this is the biggest "con", then I may have to get me a wood plank boat sooner rather than later.

    so there is no track record to show whether or not this is a good idea.
    Perhaps not for Tightbond II, but the principle has a track record, and Tightbond II has a track record for being practically indestructible when used on wood.


    At first blush it would appear that neither cloth bedded in titebond nor rubberized paint of some sort would provide the rigidity that fero-cement or heavy fiberglassing provide to reinforce a clapped out old boat, as in the case of your example of an old fishing boat being given a few more years of life.
    This may be where the crux of my question is most important. The tightbond II will tear the wood from the plank if one attempts to remove the impregnated cloth. I grant that one or two layers will probably not be enough, but what about four or five? The stuff is like fiberglass in its rigidity. However, the thing I like about it is that it does allow for some minor flexing without tearing which is also what we find with fiberglass and ferrocement. The added advantage is that I'm not dealing with different materials. I'm dealing with materials that will expand and contract in equal proportions with differing temperatures. Ferrocement expands at a different rate than wood which one would think would cause some significant problems. Perhaps the differences aren't that great to make this noticeable where it's been tried.

    The polyuria paint is quite flexible, so much so that as the wood expands and contracts the paint does as well. When a board comes loose and decides to spring loose, the paint holds it in place. Yes, it's that strong. There no need to ever caulk a seem ever again, and you practically can't because the paint is so difficult to remove without cutting it off with a grinder.

    My problem is that I'm still not quite clear on the principles of wood plank construction. I see people with quite expensive boats that have the bilges painted. I don't understand how painting the bilges will allow for the wood to swell. Is it just a matter of when the paint begins to crack that it then allows for water to get into the wood which then causes the wood to swell and seal up a possible leak?

    Another con is doing the work itself, which would include surveying, repairing, and prepping the boat prior to sheathing, as well as the actual sheathing.
    All boats should be surveyed so this is a given anyways. If I purchase a boat that doesn't need any significant repairs then once again, I'm still ahead of the game. Prepping requires that all the paint be removed which can be done with paint remover, and perhaps even a sandblaster to get rid of the superficial layers. I've worked with sandblasters in the past and it isn't rocket science. However, it can turn a few weeks of toil into a few hours worth of painted sand on the ground.

    Bottom line, sounds easier than it will be in practice to get a good job done,
    Bottom line, thinking outside the box can yield results that are easier than they sound. Laying up cloth impregnated with glue isn't as difficult as it may sound.

    then there is no guarantee that is will last as long as you hope.
    I'm not looking for guarantees, nor am I relying upon hope for anything less than what I know is true.

    Or it could be fine, who knows.
    Those who have actually worked with Tightbond II for one, but you've got me to thinking about looking for a wood plank dinghy to experiment on now.

    Thanks again for your input

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Dry it out, build a shell and keep it dry, you have something. Soak the wood with a preservative like Tim-Bor and coat it well, and it might last for a while. Just coating a rotting boat with a shell will make it rot faster. If the shell is strong enough, you can scrape the boat out and use the shell, but that isn't much of a solution.
    Thanks Dave, this is what I'm looking for. This all makes sense. What I see as another problem is that my plan is to take a wood plank boat to a climate that is quite humid so soaking the wood with a preservative is definitely something I'll have to look into.

    Ferrocement didn't die out because it worked well.
    Actually ferrocement worked extremely well. It died out for two very salient reasons. The first was that labor became prohibitively expensive. The second reason was that people took plans and altered them, or they didn't pay attention to the details. Laminated ferrocement solved both problems. It's practically fool proof.

    A company in Maine studied the properties of ferrocement. When they looked at various ratios of cement to steel, all of the properties were best when the ratio was 0% cement, 100% steel. They decided to build steel boats.
    A couple of guys out in Sacramento had been building barges for the refineries out there out of ferrocement, and decided to utilize a female cavity mold like those used with fiberglass. The result was a 60' boat that could be built in a day with five guys The last one they built sold for around $10k. They built around 40 of them and most of them are still floating and look like brand new fiberglass boats. I've seen a few of them. They're incredible! Steel rusts, but the matrix on these boats are intentionally sealed in a thin layer of oxidation within the cement. They will never rust. Blisters are also extremely rare. They will undoubtedly outlast most steel boats of the same age. The biggest problem with ferrocement is it's reputation which is due to those who didn't know what they were doing. Even with this, it isn't uncommon to see large ferrocement sailboats selling for over $100k. The biggest headache for boat yards is when someone hauls one out and then abandons it. They aren't as easy to crunch up and throw away as fiberglass, or wood.

    2.Poor man's fiberglass. (Tightbond II impregnated into painter's drop cloth)
    First, Titebond II is not as water resistant as Titebond III. OK, I don't know enough to say how badly water saturation will reduce the properties of Titebond III, but this sounds worse than PL Premium on Dacron. You can make a SOF boat with PL Premium and Dacron skin. Using it to cover a wood hull, I have my reservations. This sounds like an old boat coating called Cascover. Google this: site:forum.woodenboat.com cascover. Cascover is an old nylon set in two component resorcinol-formaldehyde resin adhesive coating. See also #12

    3. DragonShield Polyuria paint
    I didn't check the price, so insert a smiley face and ignore the comment.
    Yes, it's quite expensive. A 50' boat would run around $10k just for the bottom, but there are less expensive competitors who offer a product that is just as effective for my purposes. I'm not planning on running the boat in mine infested waters. Thanks for your response. It was very helpful.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    I tried to post my previous post, but something went wrong, and this is what's left; not sure what happened

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    Thanks Dave, this is what I'm looking for. This all makes sense. What I see as another problem is that my plan is to take a wood plank boat to a climate that is quite humid so soaking the wood with a preservative is definitely something I'll have to look into.

    [COLOR=#000020]

    Actually ferrocement worked extremely well. It died out for two very salient reasons. The first was that labor became prohibitively expensive. The second reason was that people took plans and altered them, or they didn't pay attention to the details. Laminated ferrocement solved both problems. It's practically fool proof.



    A couple of guys out in Sacramento had been building barges for the refineries out there out of ferrocement, and decided to utilize a female cavity mold like those used with fiberglass. The result was a 60' boat that could be built in a day with five guys The last one they built sold for around $10k. They built around 40 of them and most of them are still floating and look like brand new fiberglass boats. I've seen a few of them. They're incredible! Steel rusts, but the matrix on these boats are intentionally sealed in a thin layer of oxidation within the cement. They will never rust. Blisters are also extremely rare. They will undoubtedly outlast most steel boats of the same age. The biggest problem with ferrocement is it's reputation which is due to those who didn't know what they were doing. Even with this, it isn't uncommon to see large ferrocement sailboats selling for over $100k. The biggest headache for boat yards is when someone hauls one out and then abandons it. They aren't as easy to crunch up and throw away as fiberglass, or wood.




    Yes, it's quite expensive. A 50' boat would run around $10k just for the bottom, but there are less expensive competitors who offer a product that is just as effective for my purposes. I'm not planning on running the boat in mine infested waters. Thanks for your response. It was very helpful.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    You planning on turning the boat over?
    No, I'm planning on rolling the glue on with a roller with strips of cloth laying on the ground (on a tarp) to catch whatever drips. The strips will probably be a foot or two wide, and a few feet long, maybe 6 or 8 feet long. I would probably need one guy to hold one end while I squeegee the cloth to the bottom; might have another guy hold the other end if they're really long pieces. I figure I could do a layer a day on a 40 to 50' boat hull. If I do the job down in central America, the labor will be even cheaper. After the guys I hire see how easy it is to do it, I can leave them to do the next three or four layers themselves while I supervise.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    So what you are saying is that you may be new here but you weren't born yesterday?

    New posters have no reputation and it takes a while to gain respect. We mean well, but don't pull punches if we think you are going to get yourself in trouble. No offense intended, just trying to save you from yourself, whether you need it or not.
    No offense taken MN Dave, I get the same reaction from the traveling evangelists. I point out to them that I wasn't born again yesterday. I just felt it was necessary to point out that up until that point, no one had bothered to answer the question posted. My response seems to have had the intended effect of rousing some from their slumber and posting some useful information on the topic. I take that over respect any day.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    My problem is that I'm still not quite clear on the principles of wood plank construction. I see people with quite expensive boats that have the bilges painted. I don't understand how painting the bilges will allow for the wood to swell. Is it just a matter of when the paint begins to crack that it then allows for water to get into the wood which then causes the wood to swell and seal up a possible leak?
    Wood plank construction relies on the individual planks being united so that they become the equivalent to sheet material like plywood. This is achieved by driving thick enough nails through the plank into the framing to transfer shear stresses from plank to frame to plank as well as using caulking driven tight, or by riveting the planks to batten seams, or to each other. Now as planks soften, or the nail holes wear or the caulking becomes loose those shear stresses are no longer being transmitted through the structure and the planks will move long the seams. If you cover a boat in this state with cloth that is not strong enough to compensate for the loose fastenings and loose caulking the sheathing will tear like opening zipper along those plank seams.

    Now as to bilge paint. Neither paint nor varnish is 100% impervious to moisture. So painted wood will always stabilize at some level of humidity. Paint maintains that level of humidity at a fairly constant level, and will only change (slowly) if the wood is moved from a damp environment to a totally dry or totally waterlogged environment
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    So what you are saying is that this thread is a waste of bandwidth?
    I'm not speaking for the other poster here, but the idea is that just because I'm asking a question, it doesn't then follow that I don't know what I'm talking about.

    Obviously, the message here is that this fellow likes boats, which is a good thing.
    I'm not actually all that big of a fan of boats. I've been around them my whole life, and the novelty actually wore off about twenty or so years ago. I don't get a boner when I buy one. However, I do feel quite good when I sell one. Contrary to popular opinion can be quite easy to make money selling them.

    But he can't afford one suitable for what he wants to do with it. That pretty much makes the discussion a waste of time, doesn't it?
    No. It isn't that I can't afford one suitable for what I want to do with it. It's that I know what the costs are to maintain a wood plank boat. I also know that it may not be necessary to burn through a few thousand dollars a day in order to actually fulfill my purposes. There are quite a few good deals on wood plank boats that have been well taken care of. This is more than sufficient to get me down to the Caribbean. From that point on, is where the topic of this thread becomes relevant. I may not need to move the boat much after that so I don't need to refasten or replace planks, ribs etc.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Wood plank construction relies on the individual planks being united so that they become the equivalent to sheet material like plywood. This is achieved by driving thick enough nails through the plank into the framing to transfer shear stresses from plank to frame to plank as well as using caulking driven tight, or by riveting the planks to batten seams, or to each other. Now as planks soften, or the nail holes wear or the caulking becomes loose those shear stresses are no longer being transmitted through the structure and the planks will move long the seams. If you cover a boat in this state with cloth that is not strong enough to compensate for the loose fastenings and loose caulking the sheathing will tear like opening zipper along those plank seams.

    Now as to bilge paint. Neither paint nor varnish is 100% impervious to moisture. So painted wood will always stabilize at some level of humidity. Paint maintains that level of humidity at a fairly constant level, and will only change (slowly) if the wood is moved from a damp environment to a totally dry or totally waterlogged environment
    Fantastic. Thanks again for this information.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    From that point on, is where the topic of this thread becomes relevant. I may not need to move the boat much after that so I don't need to refasten or replace planks, ribs etc.
    It is not you moving the boat so much as the blue wet wavy ocean moving around it. Unless you put it behind dock gates so there is no wave action boats are always moving.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    It is not you moving the boat so much as the blue wet wavy ocean moving around it. Unless you put it behind dock gates so there is no wave action boats are always moving.
    Sure, but with a good thick coat of rubberized paint or a few layers of glue impregnated cloth, I don't think it's going to be a problem. I had an old 40' WWII liberty launch for a few years and that thing leaked like a 10 ton chunk of cheese cloth. One day the winds were blowing a gale and the high tide pushed the bow up onto a levy. The following low tide left the stern in the mud which gave the impression that the boat was waiting to be launched into orbit. It was way too steep to stand on. I walked under it a few times to inspect the bottom. As old and neglected as it was, it was still built like a tank. There were some days where it would pump out a few thousand gallons an hour. Needless to say, I don't worry about a little water sitting in the bilges or some creaking as the wind blown waves splash against the hull.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    How about just buy a carvel boat in reasonable condition and caulk/paint as required instead of buying something that needs el cheapo ideas to fix? Sounds a bit like you want something for nothing and to be blunt this is a wooden boat forum where mostly people take pride in workmanship and good practice. What you are asking for is something that no one here can really answer with any substantial first hand experience.

    Cotton, putty, screws, some effort in replacing unserviceable components in a half decent wooden boat will be cheaper than the solutions you suggest.
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Boatdesign.net is where you need to go to chat with others who may have more experience in slapping a layer of crud over a boat on its last legs to get to the “carribean”
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    How about just buy a carvel boat in reasonable condition and caulk/paint as required instead of buying something that needs el cheapo ideas to fix?
    Because I'm not looking at boats that need "el cheapo ideas to fix". I'm looking at boats that are sound, and looking into possible alternatives to maintenance that are just as good for my purposes.

    Sounds a bit like you want something for nothing
    No, just something for less.

    and to be blunt this is a wooden boat forum where mostly people take pride in workmanship and good practice.
    Right, which is why I'm directing my question here. I'm assuming that those who have done the work right might have an idea of what would happen if these techniques were to be utilized. Given that some have done their work in boatyards where these techniques can be carried out, it stands to reason that they may have also seen these techniques utilized. I saw one case myself, but wasn't all that interested in it at the time so I didn't pay much attention to it except for noting that the boat didn't leak for just over a year while I was around.

    What you are asking for is something that no one here can really answer with any substantial first hand experience.
    You seem to have taken your ideas concerning pride to a whole new level in presuming to speak for everyone on this forum.

    Cotton, putty, screws, some effort in replacing unserviceable components in a half decent wooden boat will be cheaper than the solutions you suggest.[/QUOTE]

  30. #30
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Boatdesign.net is where you need to go to chat with others who may have more experience in slapping a layer of crud over a boat on its last legs to get to the “carribean”
    Thanks for the link. Perhaps I will have better luck in getting responses that don't come with false assumptions, and a few layers of cruddy contempt and condescension.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Warning: Wasting bandwidth, skip to the next post. This is a topic that interests me, so going into detail is self serving for me and dead boring for most.

    Poor man's fiberglass: I have serious reservations regarding Titebond and glass cloth. Not just the Titebond, but glass used with it. A tougher cloth, ballistic Nylon, Dacron (the 7-8oz SOF stuff) or even canvass might be better. In the end, I don't think it will form a structural skin, but it might stop the teredo worms.

    Titebond II is not as waterproof as III. II will chalk below 60F, III below 47F. I'm just saying that I would try to check to be sure what you saw used. While it is tempting to dismiss it out of hand, I tried to find something about it. Drops of titebond dry very slowly. I think that glass cloth saturated with titebond will take a long time to dry and there can be problems with adhesion of paint or more layers to the cured titebond once it finally does cure, so laminating more than one layer of light cloth sounds like a major headache. Test first.

    Re: Thoughts on Titebond III (this will link to original post)
    Post by raymacke Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:49 pm

    Out of necessity, above the waterline I use lots of Titebond III building my Cabin Skiff. All the exterior Titebond joints are covered with epoxy - all the interior joints are covered with latex paint. After 12 years and 28,000 miles of use and abuse not a single failure or problem. My tests trying to thicken it didn't fair well so I didn't. Also tried using it to saturate and fill fiberglass cloth - that didn't go well either.
    300wm, May 18, 2016 Link to post:#11

    Perfectly matched joints can be reliable with such stuff as Titebond or other glues of the type. Note the qualification, perfectly matched.

    Finally got a day off where I could work on the thing. Yes, all joints are matched and everything is 90 degree angles. It basically looks like a long shoe box pointed at each end. The deck, hull, and sides are each one piece when everything is spliced. I just set the hull on the leveling pads and tack together with finish nails. The 90 degree angles are what I wanted to use the fiberglass and wood glue for...to attach like you would with resin. I am now looking at cotton canvas to use for this instead of fiberglass. Admittingly, just doing one side is not strong 'cause the water glue flexes too much when cured, but when everything is together, it is one solid unit, at least with the screwed in strips. That's what I'm trying to get rid of doing.
    And there's a guy who posted quite a few articles here about using PL Premium.
    I think that would be sdowney717 (Thread: Stand by sdowney717 !. Thread #1 titebond and fiberglass Thread: update on my sanitred permaflex hull, all is well) He hasn't posted since 2017. He used to like Sani-Tred Permaflex, a one part PU but seems to have gone to PL Premium. The Permaflex has properties a lot like Dragon shield, but seems thinner and probably a lot more reasonably priced. PL-Premium is the only PL product that did well in some immersion testing that I saw but I lost the link.
    https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/n...ne-idea.43557/

    Sanitred runs $120/gal ($587) in a 5 gal bucket, about same as epoxy. While 5 gal of Titebond III is only $160, at 50% solids, the part that remains costs $320. 24 28oz tubes of PL Premium (~5gal) for $170. I think that you will need to thin PL with something, mineral spirits is recommended for clean up. There is also Spirit Line's PU for SOF boats, which is a good 2-part PU works out to $666 for 5 gallons. Dragonshield I couldn't find a price, but the small package is 110 gallons and it is a 2-part spray that takes special equiment. Finally (you thought it would never happen?) the cost of cloth needs to be rolled in to the Titebond.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    It seems to me that a heavy layer of polyurea over a sound hull would save you some maintainance, but I don't know how well it holds bottom paint.

    Also, I expect that it has to go on over a perfectly clean and DRY substrate, as would the TIII in cotton. I doubt that either would adhere well to a wet hull.

    Lots of sound hulls have been covered with a couple or three layers of cold molding then glassed and stood the test of time. Polyurea would save a lot on labor over that process, perhaps enough that it would be less expensive.

    Anyway, I think I'd just go with a fiberglass hull to keep the labor expenses down, especially at my (and apparently your) advanced age.
    Last edited by Gib Etheridge; 01-30-2019 at 12:40 PM.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Warning: Wasting bandwidth, skip to the next post. This is a topic that interests me, so going into detail is self serving for me and dead boring for most.

    Poor man's fiberglass: I have serious reservations regarding Titebond and glass cloth.
    I would as well. Sorry, if I wasn't clear in my initial post, but my intention was to use painter's drop cloth impregnated with the Tightbond.

    Drops of titebond dry very slowly.
    I'm in central Florida right now, and the stuff I used takes a day to cure before it can be sanded.

    Test first.
    I've done two layers a day apart from each other and then put a layer of paint over that just for looks. A year later and the chickens are all still dry in their fancy new, but quite cheap chicken coop.

    I think that would be sdowney717 (Thread: Stand by sdowney717 !. Thread #1 titebond and fiberglass Thread: update on my sanitred permaflex hull, all is well) He hasn't posted since 2017. He used to like Sani-Tred Permaflex, a one part PU but seems to have gone to PL Premium. The Permaflex has properties a lot like Dragon shield, but seems thinner and probably a lot more reasonably priced. PL-Premium is the only PL product that did well in some immersion testing that I saw but I lost the link.
    https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/n...ne-idea.43557/

    Sanitred runs $120/gal ($587) in a 5 gal bucket, about same as epoxy. While 5 gal of Titebond III is only $160, at 50% solids, the part that remains costs $320. 24 28oz tubes of PL Premium (~5gal) for $170. I think that you will need to thin PL with something, mineral spirits is recommended for clean up. There is also Spirit Line's PU for SOF boats, which is a good 2-part PU works out to $666 for 5 gallons. Dragonshield I couldn't find a price, but the small package is 110 gallons and it is a 2-part spray that takes special equiment. Finally (you thought it would never happen?) the cost of cloth needs to be rolled in to the Titebond.
    Thanks for the links. I can get the tighbond for $100. for five gallons. I can't even begin to think about using the Dragon Shield it's way out of my price range. I already talked to a few applicators and they quoted me prices above $10k just to spray from the water line down.

    However, I did find another company that uses a gravity fed applicator that is quite affordable and easy to use. They claim their paint works well on commercial vessels and show pictures of 100'+ long ships with their paint on them. They don't guarantee against bomb blasts, but they do claim that it will prevent worms from boring into wood.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Do you put all the layers on at once? How many are we talking about? It must be one unholy mess when you're done. How do you go about sanding that? Do you apply paint to seal the glue?

    So many questions...


    Jim
    One layer at a time. I think four or five should do the trick. The projects I've done so far haven't resulted in much of a mess at all. I figure a tarp on the ground with cloth spread out to prevent wasting any of it will work.

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    Default Re: wood plank encapsulation materials and techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by shnarkle View Post
    Thanks for the link. Perhaps I will have better luck in getting responses that don't come with false assumptions, and a few layers of cruddy contempt and condescension.
    Its not like we havent been around the block a few time on this and related topics and I'm sure you didnt come here looking for approval from anyone but it's sure sounding like you need confirmation from people who have done what you propose. Wooden boats that are safe for ocean passages are basically sound and if they are basically sound you wont need to slather some big box product on them. As I said, some caulking cotton, putty, screws and paint will solve most leaky carvel boats. Your posts show you have very little understanding of what makes a carvel hull watertight and sound, one of the huge benefits of carvel is the ability to rebuild, replace worn out parts relatively inexpensively if you know what youre doing. That takes a bit of skill, not hard to learn but arguably harder than slapping on goop.

    It sounds to me that you are intent on buying a boat that needs this "treatment", better to spend the hardstand and goop costs on a better boat or a glass one. The other factor is that the hull is actually a minor part of the boating equation compared to all the other gear on a liveaboard. Anytime someone turns up professing they know boats then asks questions about how to keep a hulk afloat with unorthodox methods then also claims its easy to make money out of boats.... Perhaps you should check your own levels of arrogance, anyway where's Cleek when you need him?
    whatever rocks your boat

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