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Thread: Brine?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Brine?

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Brian, you are in Massachusetts. The question is where to get it in the UK. Very different environmental regs. Nick bought it in the form of brazing flux, which must come under the exemption for professional, trade or business material. The UK has banned borax for sale to the general public.

    Ohhh....didn't realize you were referring to the UK. Will Brexit potentially change that situation since it was an EU agency that instituted the ban?
    I rather be an American than a Republican.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Brine?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianY View Post
    Will Brexit potentially change that situation since it was an EU agency that instituted the ban?
    EU : "Water ?! You can drown in it ! Dangerous around babies ! Old people slip and die in the shower ! We must ban it !"

    Morons.

    People have been washing their hands and clothes in Borax for a hundred years without a single case of ill effects. What can one say ?

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Brine?

    Borax is not banned in the EU. It was reclassified as "potentially highly harmfull to reproduction" and as such it is not available for sale to the general public. In order to buy it you have to provide evidence that you are not the general public, meaning that anyone able to produce a business or trade licence of any kind can buy it. In fact you can find it on ebay if you search for it.
    The fact that you can buy it over the counter in the USA does not mean it is regarded safe there, the FDA has banned its use in food.

    Just to be offtopic to the end, even a hard Brexit will not change anything. This classification is now part of a british law, if someone wanted to change it they have to change the law. That will be a low priority in case of a hard Brexit.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Brine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Borax is not banned in the EU. It was reclassified as "potentially highly harmfull to reproduction" and as such it is not available for sale to the general public. In order to buy it you have to provide evidence that you are not the general public, meaning that anyone able to produce a business or trade licence of any kind can buy it. In fact you can find it on ebay if you search for it.
    The fact that you can buy it over the counter in the USA does not mean it is regarded safe there, the FDA has banned its use in food.
    Any kind of laundry soap is bad for you if you eat it. So let's make it impossible for "members of the general public" to buy Tide.

    This is beyond stupid.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Brine?

    Ok guys. Tell me more about this antifreeze and borax concoction. I assume orange versus been doesn't matter? Diluted to what? How much borax? I started vacuuming the bilge last weekend. Do I plug off the holes through the ribs, puddle up the section, let it soak in and work my way along section by section?

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Brine?

    I just ordered 5kg of Borax from the UK company Nick mentioned. They say 5% solution, and also sell pump up spray packs and face masks. I'll let you do your Sherlock Holmes work on your own.

    Kate is getting the treatment soon.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Brine?

    Sherlock Holmes??

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Brine?

    Quote Originally Posted by jstafford View Post
    Sherlock Holmes??
    He was in favor of a 7% solution

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Brine?

    OK, I thought the idea was to use a lot of liquid. Maybe plug the drain holes through the ribs and dump a gallon or so in each section and then let that soak in/evaporate. What I am seeing here is that I just mix up a batch of water and say a cup of antifreeze and a couple tablespoon of Borax in my 2 gallon sprayer and then spray that around the bottom of my bilge?

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Brine?

    You will be in hot water if you have a 7% solution. Warm anyway, 85F.
    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    I just ordered 5kg of Borax from the UK company Nick mentioned. They say 5% solution, and also sell pump up spray packs and face masks. I'll let you do your Sherlock Holmes work on your own.

    Kate is getting the treatment soon.
    5% is the concentration of a saturated solution in water at room temperature. You simply can't dissolve any more than 5% at room temperature. It will dissolve a lot faster if you heat the water. You can dissolve 42% in ethylene glycol at 77F. Any mixture of glycol and water will fall somewhere between 5 and 40%.
    https://www.borax.com/BoraxCorp/medi...ecahydrate.pdf

    The borax and glycol debate dates back to Dave Carnell a forum member who died (not from glycol) around 10 years ago. He added some unfortunate anecdotes about "folk medicine" that really irked and offended some of the more vocal members who rail against glycol with enthusiasm. The basic information is here: http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/rot.html

    One of many threads http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...82-Anti-Freeze

    Toxicity: Good grief! Don't leave containers of liquid chemicals lying around. Once it's soaked into wood, don't eat large quantities of treated wood.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Brine?

    Good tip Dave, thanks.. I'm just an enthusiastic gonk.

    I always am intrigued by your knowledge.. you're a chemist right?

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Brine?

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    You will be in hot water if you have a 7% solution.
    Your old movie skills need a refreshah, grasshoppa -- "Moriarty was a name I'd only known him to mutter... when in the thrall of one of his cocaine injections."

    I did see one negative about anti-freeze treatment - either on Rot Doctor or Smith's site were some tests on paint. Paint over Borax, no problem. Paint over ethylene glycon, could be a problem. Sometimes immediately, sometimes later. Paint over anti-freeze that was subsequently sealed with cpes, no problem.

    Take that for whatever it is worth
    Last edited by Favorite; 02-04-2019 at 09:26 PM.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Brine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Favorite View Post
    Oivay. Here's a hint -- "Moriarty was a name I'd only known him to mutter... when in the thrall of one of his cocaine injections."

    I did see one negative about anti-freeze treatment - either on Rot Doctor or Smith's site were some tests on paint. Paint over Borax, no problem. Paint over ethylene glycon, could be a problem. Sometimes immediately, sometimes later. Paint over anti-freeze that was subsequently sealed with cpes, no problem.

    Take that for whatever it is worth
    You are thinking of the West System test. They found that there was no adverse effect on adhesion with any mix of EG and Borax up to the one with so much Borax that it left a white powder on the surface. They applied the epoxy to the contaminated surface and as anyone should expect, when you try to glue a dirty surface, you don't get good results. If they had cleaned the excess powder off the surface, the results would have been different.
    EDIT: Correction. The West test said "It may be that the sodium borate leaves a residue that affects adhesion, but this interpretation is speculative." OK, If it may have left a residue, it also may not have left a residue. I suspect that it did. While I think that there was a contamination problem, it is possible that the adhesion loss was not due to a contamination problem. More testing is needed. The effect was worse on white oak than pine. The strength reduction on pine was not bad, and would be expected because the glycol does swell wood similarly to water, and wet wood shows a clearly established strength reduction. https://maritime.org/conf/conf-reynolds-mat2.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Good tip Dave, thanks.. I'm just an enthusiastic gonk.

    I always am intrigued by your knowledge.. you're a chemist right?
    I tried chemistry once but didn't like it. Well, twice; synthetic organic, then analytical. Working on a space ship made up for having an otherwise boring job. When that job dried up, I wound up in materials engineering. What the heck, wet chemistry, adhesive bonding, metallurgy, same ol' same ol,' just a different melting point. Gotta be flexible. Just in case anyone thinks that I don't know sh*t, I also did a stint in the lab at the Cape Canaveral sewage plant. Maybe too literal there.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 02-05-2019 at 02:19 PM.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Brine?

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    You are thinking of the West System test.
    I saw that but it's not what I'm thinking of ... somewhere on either the rotdoctor's place or maybe smith's site is a single article about painting. It was not very scientific, just some comments but the gist was, borax creates no problems but anti-freeze has a tendency later on to cause paint to lift.

    I wouldn't stake my Jack Armstrong Secret Decoder Ring on the accuracy of that page, but since it's all the same to me, I'll use borax in areas that I expect to paint later.

    They also noted that a layer of cpes (and I am assuming a non-cpes such as Minwax'es wood hardener) would create a barrier between the antifreeze and the paint that stopped this problem.

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