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Thread: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

  1. #1
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    Default sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Hi, interested in opinions on design suitability.. I've re-located inland and my new sailing ground is a mountain lake ( kootenay lake, bc). I've been kayaking it a bit now, and white-knuckling sometimes in an inadequate outboard tin boat. A few outings in a hard chined sprit-ketch open boat, it doesn't row super easy and doesn't lend itself to easy reefing and it's a heavy beast to haul out.

    The places I like to camp generally involve something like a 2 nautical mile crossing. Depending on where I'm at at and what wind happens the fetch can be as little as 1 or 2 miles to something more like 50. In the shoulder seasons the place can be prone to sudden squalls. If you see the squall line right away you've got about fifteen minutes before it hits you, and from the middle of the crossing it's going to be tight making it off first. A pretty rough steep chop comes up fast and winds can easy be 20 knts plus. Sometimes it'll come up and stay that way for hours. The water can get damn cold in season. The lee shore is sometimes is an extended broad sandy /muddy very shoal river mouth that would be all sorts of breaking trouble with any waves coming in on it.

    There are very few protected anchorages and most of the little nooks are steep and deep. Lots of cliff with a few beaches and shoal creek mouths. Being able to haul a boat up a steep beach or get it out on inflatable rollers to wait out a blow is important.

    I want to single hand with backpacker's camping gear. It would also be nice to be able to take a trip with my family (3). We might possibly be talking about 2 different boats. The kayak does the job but I miss sailing. I'm interested in boats that are simple / minimalist enough that the build time / cost isn't completely overwhelming.

    I have a soft spot for 19th century sailing canoes and I was looking at Gentry's S.O.F. Chautauqua. Maybe probably not enough boat, but if I watched the weather close and skip afternoons.... At least you can haul it up the beach. Drysuit. Maybe you could right it solo if you tipped it. I also love oughtred's stuff aesthetically and was wondering how a faering would fare? Elfyn? I know of Kurylko's 'Alaska' and that he more or less designed it for this lake, it seems like a more complicated build that I want to get into, and I've seen waves that give me pause.. thanks for any thoughts.. ps good rowers only no outboards, maybe fifty fifty sail / oar compromise...

  2. #2
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Getting something with a balanced lug will dramatically improve your ability to handle a squall. Reefable in just a few minutes, and you can strike it with ease. No tracks or lacings to get bunched up. Adding little mizzen also makes it easy to ride out a squall bow-into-wind.

    The Oughtred double enders are a great choice. For the ability to haul it up a steep beach, obviously weight is a concern. This opposes the ability to carry 3 people.

    I'll be interested to see what others say. Mountain sailing is a different animal from salt water.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

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    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  3. #3
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Probably does not meet your build time request, but I'll throw it out there (since I have one): Welsford's Walkabout: http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans...bout/index.htm

    John calls it one of his most seaworthy designs. The deck, coaming and enclosed flotation all add to the safety margin. You don't say sleep on board, but that's what it is designed for in solo backpacking style. Can daysail with 3. Very good rower (I only row camp on mine).

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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Whatever you build you'll want to add fore- and side-decks to the design. I've more experience with the Oughtred Caledonia Yawl than Walkabout, but the latter might be a tiny bit easier to land and handle in shallows and beaches due to the flatter bottom profile.

    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Sounds like you'll be reaching back and forth across the lake, yeah? You won't need a lot of upwind performance? Maybe you could go with a smallish sail rig that you could grab and just throw down into the boat when all hell breaks loose. A leg-of-mutton would do fine. You'd then row until you get where you're headed. Rowing with the wind slightly abeam is a very pleasant storm tactic. I could also see having a lightweight boat that was pedal driven.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    hmmm... Often reaching across, but it would be nice to work up-lake from site to site as well...I suppose there's always rowing. And there's that lee shore to keep off of. A decent rowboat could 'ferry' across in a squall at a bit of an angle until you get exhausted. I've even been thinking a little sea anchor might not be a bad idea.

    Yes the three-person boat and the solo steep beach haul are incompatible. I may need to choose between, or build two.

    Welsford's stuff is cool, but build time is daunting for me. I get where everyone's coming from with the decking...I had been thinking of a very open boat and lashing a couple of inflatable boat rollers in for flotation. Not a lot of free hands for bailing when you're solo though. Maybe you guys are right.

    Would the faering blow away with me when i'm rowing, or fall off or weathercock? I guess some camping gear could help to trim it proper and weight it down a bit.

    (sleeping aboard not a big priority, the 'anchorages' sort of suck here, i'll probably spread the bedroll on the beach....although if i ever managed a road trip to the coast...)
    Last edited by Murray Campbell; 01-07-2019 at 06:38 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    As a builder and former owner of Kurylko's Alaska I can safely state that it is both complex to build and far too heavy to quickly haul out of the water. Don actually designed her for the Salish Sea, following a 500 mile cruise in a precursor boat, as I understand it.

    You might consider Dunlin by Kees Prins, a smaller sail and oar boat that looks to me to be quite able but is lighter, should still carry 3 as long as you don't plan to be out for weeks at a time and should be light enough to get up onto the shore when you need to. Enclosed stowage and flotation. It just might just fill the bill.

    Yeadon took some nice pictures of her in 2017, see post #43: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...val-2017/page2

    The original boat was for sale on the Pocket Yachters web site for a while and might not be sold yet: http://www.pocketyachters.com/Port_T..._For_Sale.html
    Last edited by AJZimm; 01-07-2019 at 07:32 PM. Reason: typo
    Alex

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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Outrigger sailing canoe. Gary Dierking's Wa'Apa is a modular build (bolt-together), for a 16 and 24 foot version (add a center section). Can be single or double outrigger. The 24 footer should take three adults. An easy-ish build. -- Wade

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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    I like the basic ideas the other folks put out like an outrigger or a simple sail that you could pluck out in a gale. A lug rig is awful nice.

    Your desire to haul the boat up on the beach in a pinch seems like a real deal breaker- unless you were interested in a skin on frame model. I wonder if you had a boat with a sail you could douse in a jiffy and a small sturdy anchor (like a mantus) would help you out in the squalls, instead of going all the way ashore.

    Cape Falcon Kayak has several boats that look like promising examples for light weight sailors.



    Getting three people in any boat that is easy to haul up is a hard one.

    Good luck.
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

  10. #10
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    I sail a canoe in similar conditions on lakes in New Mexico. We get thunderstorm squalls like you are talking about, and yeah you learn how to see them coming. I sometimes sail through them. At first with full sail, can do it but not a good idea. I have one deep reef in a balanced lug, this is perfect. I sail under control and into the wind in 20+ winds. This is what I do now that I have a fast reefing sytem set up. I prefer to stay sailing, as apposed to anything shoreside, with sailing at least I am in control and not up against anything hard. I tried the anchor plan, works if I am in a shollow area, but as my favorite lake is a flooded canyon, the depths can be quite deep only 20-30 feet off the shore, sometimes I can’t find the bottom and really am not interested in carrying that much tackle. Just dropping the anchor down as a sea anchor does a decent job slowing the motion down. Nosing up onto a soft beach works, if you have a beach around you at that time. I do really like my balanced lug for how fast it drops, I have it down and lashed seconds. I rode out one quick rainstorm last summer under the sail, dropped it flopped the yard over me and stayed perfectly dry.

    I like your camping plan.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Cool, thanks for the replies all.. My shoreline depths are similar Matt, if you want swinging room off the beach you can be in a hundred feet of water. Sometimes the 'squalls' here can keep blowing all afternoon, which is when it's nice to just stay on the beach if you happen to get caught on the far side. Or for camping, as many of the 'anchorages' are vulnerable if the wind shifts overnight.

    I'm totally open to anything S.O.F. Still wondering about that little S.O.F. sailing canoe. I've got some decent beach rollers, I think I can haul out a clinker ply 3-person boat if I have some crew, but no, not on my own. @ Wade, i've got Gary's book and have thought of Wa'apa, but sometimes just looking at it makes me shiver. I want to do some 'frost-biting' sailing here. Maybe it's not as wet a ride as it looks.

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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    I would look at Dave Gentry’s SOF sailing boats too, and ask his advice. They look fairly stable and light. One Of those could be a better option than a canoe. Depends also if you want to row or paddle. In my opinion sailing canoes are fun, light, can carry a lot, and easy to paddle. But they do require careful handling when sailing. My next one, a rebuild, is 17’ long. And I would consider 18’, my 16’er feels too short when I am out in it. I enjoy standup paddling mine when the wind goes away, it feels great to move the legs around.

    I reef my lug in about 20-30 seconds, now that I have it all worked out.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    The Dobler 16 might fit the bill.

    http://jonesboatstuckahoe.com/dobler16.html
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  14. #14
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Lots of good notions. Another is John Atkin's 14-9 Erika, a relatively narrow boat that sails fine and rows well. Perhaps change the rig to a balanced lug on a shorter mast. She can be built with 3/8" plywood, maybe even 1/4" on the sides.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Quote Originally Posted by Murray Campbell View Post
    I have a soft spot for 19th century sailing canoes and I was looking at Gentry's S.O.F. Chautauqua. Maybe probably not enough boat, but if I watched the weather close and skip afternoons.... At least you can haul it up the beach. Drysuit. Maybe you could right it solo if you tipped it.
    Hi Murray - Chautauqua is capable in those conditions, and more, presuming the skipper is. But she is wet in heavy chop while going to weather. And she's too narrow to be amusing (again, just when going upwind) in 25kt+ gusts that are accompanied by huge shifts, as often happens in narrow or mountainous lakes. Heaps of fun off the wind, though.
    She's a bit of a chore to carry and to get up on the roof rack by oneself. I can do it without issue, but I'll likely have to alter the process in ten more years.

    But Chautauqua can be quickly reefed from the cockpit, rows quite well (even in extreme conditions), and floats with her cockpit well clear of the water in a knockdown. Re-boarding is not difficult, but I made provisions for a "paddle-float rescue," using an oar, just in case.

    My Annabelle Skiff is significantly lighter and easier to carry around, is a drier boat than the canoe, and can take 3 - if one of them is a little kid. Also she's less expensive and quicker to build - and also quicker to rig up on shore. She does row easily.
    But, as with many an open boat, self rescue will be hampered by the amount of water likely to be taken aboard. Too, sailing with passengers is tight - she's meant to be a solo boat that can take passengers once in a while.

    I might also recommend Bolger's Gypsy, White's Shellback dinghy, and perhaps Clint Chase's Echo Bay.

    Good luck!
    Dave

    MN Dave: The Dobler 16 might fit the bill. http://jonesboatstuckahoe.com/dobler16.html
    Nice to see some Thomas Firth Jones love here! His books are great reading.
    Last edited by DGentry; 01-08-2019 at 10:23 AM.

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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    CLC has finally released full plans for the Skerry Raid.
    https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/...erry-Raid.html

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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    One of the Solway Dory canoes with the mini outriggers might be a decent solution? (or at least an inspiration?)


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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    Hi Murray - Chautauqua is capable in those conditions, and more, presuming the skipper is. But she is wet in heavy chop while going to weather. And she's too narrow to be amusing (again, just when going upwind) in 25kt+ gusts that are accompanied by huge shifts, as often happens in narrow or mountainous lakes. Heaps of fun off the wind, though.
    She's a bit of a chore to carry and to get up on the roof rack by oneself. I can do it without issue, but I'll likely have to alter the process in ten more years.

    But Chautauqua can be quickly reefed from the cockpit, rows quite well (even in extreme conditions), and floats with her cockpit well clear of the water in a knockdown. Re-boarding is not difficult, but I made provisions for a "paddle-float rescue," using an oar, just in case.

    My Annabelle Skiff is significantly lighter and easier to carry around, is a drier boat than the canoe, and can take 3 - if one of them is a little kid. Also she's less expensive and quicker to build - and also quicker to rig up on shore. She does row easily.
    But, as with many an open boat, self rescue will be hampered by the amount of water likely to be taken aboard. Too, sailing with passengers is tight - she's meant to be a solo boat that can take passengers once in a while.

    I might also recommend Bolger's Gypsy, White's Shellback dinghy, and perhaps Clint Chase's Echo Bay.

    Good luck!
    Dave


    Nice to see some Thomas Firth Jones love here! His books are great reading.
    I have a Bolger Gypsy. I regret choosing the Gypsy instead of the wider Dobler 16. As designed Gypsy is cramped with two people. My interior has been modified to maximize room for two people, three in a pinch, but it is still small. Gypsy is a full foot narrower than the Dobler 16. A foot more plywood won't add much weight, but that extra room would be great to have.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    I built a Chautaqua for lake sailing and single handed camping, with extended cockpit for sleeping aboard. Would not consider it myself for more than one in that use scenario unless a small child. You might need to get onto Mr Gentry regarding his new Punter, that might suit......no pressure Dave!
    Something that will carry 3+gear but easily retrievable sounds just like many a yacht tender, but they are often used in that capacity for short trips ashore from an anchored vessel. Welsfords Sherpa is a burdsome wee ship, but perhaps John would be better qualified to the suitability requirements.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    yeah, chautauqua for one, or maybe a daysail with my kid... i like the idea of the cruising version, how has life been with the leeboard?

    @skaraborgcraft did you ever make an SOF jaktkanot? ( saw your musings about it on an old thread)...the waterlines looked a bit hollow in places when I looked at the lines for a planked one, not sure how that translated to sof...they look cool in a tubby sort of way

  21. #21
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    The Dobbler is a performance sail & oar boat, and I’ve raced one with a friend. I wouldn’t recommend it for rough water or camping.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Problem I have found with many sail and oar boats is the oar part. To row decently its nice if they are, light, fine lined and low freeboard.

    You could put a modern sail rig on a decked sea kayak. I take mine out in some pretty rough stuff, and it handles pretty well. Deck and spray skirt keep the waves out, paddle float for self rescue if everything goes south. Mine sails quite well through about 120 degrees with no rudder or leeboard. Paddle it up wind and in no wind.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    How about this for something different: Colin Angus' Sailing RowCruiser. Two adults and a child should fit just fine. Pretty lightweight. It performed very well in the R2AK.

    R2AK video here:
    https://youtu.be/W25nBMCJDkU
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

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    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  24. #24
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Quote Originally Posted by Murray Campbell View Post
    yeah, chautauqua for one, or maybe a daysail with my kid... i like the idea of the cruising version, how has life been with the leeboard?

    @skaraborgcraft did you ever make an SOF jaktkanot? ( saw your musings about it on an old thread)...the waterlines looked a bit hollow in places when I looked at the lines for a planked one, not sure how that translated to sof...they look cool in a tubby sort of way
    Had no issues at all with the lee board, works a treat, does what is supposed to both going upwind and when hitting something in shallow water.
    You are correct with regards to lines on the jaktkanot, i found lines for a 13ft Smalandseka which would be better suited for SOF, but the Chautaqua covers my needs in this "man-portable/car topper" area, and generally better suited to my single handed use than a slightly shorter dinghy. Sitting inside the boat or on the coaming is comfortable, at least for the next few years, when i might need to build something with greater stabilty due to losing my own.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    My advice is to go with a good rowing boat with a rig to go downwind only and plan to row (or motor) upwind or no wind. I occasionally sail on a similar lake (Lake McDonald in Glacier National Park). The wind is never anything except no wind at all, or very strong in your teeth or on your backside. And it can go from flat calm to roaring in minutes as the sun drops below the ridges and the downslope thermal starts. And due to the narrow nature of the lake you just can't make much headway going upwind when the wind is up and you are reefed. With my Caledonia Yawl I have had many nice downwind runs, sometimes just mizzen only, it doesn't take much sail to move these light boats, but now I relent and motor upwind. Or sometimes beat until I get too hungry, and then relent.

    I also love the Rowcruiser.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott de M View Post
    My advice is to go with a good rowing boat with a rig to go downwind only and plan to row (or motor) upwind or no wind. I occasionally sail on a similar lake (Lake McDonald in Glacier National Park). The wind is never anything except no wind at all, or very strong in your teeth or on your backside. And it can go from flat calm to roaring in minutes as the sun drops below the ridges and the downslope thermal starts. And due to the narrow nature of the lake you just can't make much headway going upwind when the wind is up and you are reefed. With my Caledonia Yawl I have had many nice downwind runs, sometimes just mizzen only, it doesn't take much sail to move these light boats, but now I relent and motor upwind. Or sometimes beat until I get too hungry, and then relent.

    I also love the Rowcruiser.
    The Sacramento Delta is like that a lot, especially in the summer winds. The wind gets directed along the channels, so you are mostly into it or with it. Upwind is only rowing, sneaking along near shore for a bit of cover. I have a downwind sail, but when the winds get to 20+ I don't even use it because the boat gets to hull speed by easy rowing.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    If the row boat design has even a shallow keel you might get a good beam reach out of it. I can in my canoe with the leeboard up, or in actuality when I broke an experimental leeboard attachment and could not use it for the rest of he day. This canoe has about a 1.5” full length keel on it. That was enough lateral resistance to beam reach, even just a touch higher. I would shoot for this instead of strictly downwind, as I really enjoy beam reaching.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  28. #28
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    So FWIW, plans have been ordered, I'm going to have a go at building Chautauqua. Hopefully I can post a bit of the build and the sailing on a thread, but it would be best not to hold your breath... it's going to happen bit by bit.

    For the family trips I'm going to try to re-think / re-jig my current boat for ease of handling and see if I can make it fit the bill. ( I may bother for more advice on that in another thread). It has the great advantage of already existing on a trailer in my shop. Someday there will be a lovely little faering but it'll have to wait a few years.

    thanks for all your thoughts..

  29. #29
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    Good news! Im sure you will have fun in it, even if it requires you to have another boat for family purposes. Daves already around for any questions you might have, but if you start a thread, others can help out if needed. Mine was not built entirely to plan, but my build thread covers the 95% that was.
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-canoe-sort-of

  30. #30
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    Default Re: sail n oar for a squally steep-to lake

    This is too late except maybe for an additional boat. I too have experienced headwinds on long bodies of water with channelized airflow. I found a surprising way to beat it on another forum, where claims were made in sailing almost straight upwind in a Hobie pedal/sail kayak. I thought this was impossible due to physics until I tried it.

    Not sure if it would work on a sailing oar cruiser, although the Angus one is designed to allow rowing while sailing with it's out of the way mini amas. One may need the high efficiency of a Mirage drive with longer "turbo" fins. I mean a recent fin design, not those decade old penguin shaped Hobie fins you see on this forum sometime. Technique:

    1) Imagine you are a low friction iceboat or a motor sailor who can close haul at about half the typical angle into the wind with still full sails. In other words, pedal (or row) moderately, but expect about 2/3 of the energy to come from the sails. Your apparent wind is boosted more than in a normal close haul.

    2) Now tighten the mainsail hard to dead center (this may require a self-vanging boomless rig with mast sleeve). Pedal hard straight into the wind, and marvel on how about 1/3 of the pull still comes from the shivering sail, so you can pedal a bit less hard. Revert to case (1) whenever desired.

    As far as I can tell, the luff of the sail is still filling in the turbulent yawing wind, even with maybe 5 different elevation zones having different alternating port and starboard tacks. The center and leech isn't doing anything but making modest noise from a rugged sail. The oscillation of the apparent wind may also come from the kayak yawing from angled waves slapping bow, then stern.
    Last edited by rudderless; 01-17-2019 at 08:10 AM.

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