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Thread: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

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    Default Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    As mentioned in other threads I am preparing next build by sawing thimber for a lapstrake build, and hope to start lofting this year. I primarly look at Gartside designs for a trailable sailer, and I have the plans for Lugger 6m. I have decided I want a gaff rigged sloop instead of a lugger, and e-mailed with Gartside about building either "6m Lugger" or "Sjogin III" (19ft double ended sloop) with traditional lapstrake, and he like the idea. I have now been looking at #225 "Ditch Witch". One foot shorter an a bit narrower willl suit my workshop better, and I like this design also

    Anyone else considered this, or even startet building it? I guess its just as seaworthy as the slightly larger "SjoginIII" or "Lugger 6M"#166 agree? (For coastal cruising and daysaling)



    Regards Fred

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    I'm no help Fred, but I have long admired this and similar designs by Paul. Norway will be a bit more beautiful when she's afloat.

    Good luck - Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Davis View Post
    I'm no help Fred, but I have long admired this and similar designs by Paul. Norway will be a bit more beautiful when she's afloat.

    Good luck - Gary
    Norway definetly look more beautiful beeing onboard such a wessel 😉

    Sent fra min SM-N950F via Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    I like the lute stern, a nice touch.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    I own an 18ft gaffer of about that size, would love to sail her more often than I do, but even with much preparation and planning it takes an hour each way to rig, launch and get out on the water, then retrieve her again at the end of the sailing. There is a lot of rope on a boat like that, and yes I leave almost all of it in place when I drop the mast, have worked on simplifying it but she's not a boat to be sailed on impulse. I only use her when I've a full day or more.
    Yes, I've another boat for sailing in the evenings or when I've a couple of hours to spare.

    Just a thought, thats a very big rig for a relatively shallow and light boat, the mast will be a big lift to stand up, and you'll spend a lot of time reefed.

    I do though love the style, she's sweet.

    John Welsford
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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    I own an 18ft gaffer of about that size, would love to sail her more often than I do, but even with much preparation and planning it takes an hour each way to rig, launch and get out on the water, then retrieve her again at the end of the sailing. There is a lot of rope on a boat like that, and yes I leave almost all of it in place when I drop the mast, have worked on simplifying it but she's not a boat to be sailed on impulse. I only use her when I've a full day or more.
    Yes, I've another boat for sailing in the evenings or when I've a couple of hours to spare.

    Just a thought, thats a very big rig for a relatively shallow and light boat, the mast will be a big lift to stand up, and you'll spend a lot of time reefed.

    I do though love the style, she's sweet.

    John Welsford
    Peerie Maa is 18' over the stems

    Has an 18' solid spar for a mast, is gunter (gaff) rigged, and does not take anywhere near an hour to rig and launch.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    I own an 18ft gaffer of about that size, would love to sail her more often than I do, but even with much preparation and planning it takes an hour each way to rig, launch and get out on the water, then retrieve her again at the end of the sailing. There is a lot of rope on a boat like that, and yes I leave almost all of it in place when I drop the mast, have worked on simplifying it but she's not a boat to be sailed on impulse. I only use her when I've a full day or more.
    Yes, I've another boat for sailing in the evenings or when I've a couple of hours to spare.

    Just a thought, thats a very big rig for a relatively shallow and light boat, the mast will be a big lift to stand up, and you'll spend a lot of time reefed.

    I do though love the style, she's sweet.

    John Welsford
    Thanks John

    Do you think she is overpowered? (btw there is a 630 lbs lead foot...) How would you compare stability with Gartside SjoginIII?

    If I build it she will be in a Marina in the summer and in a shed in winter. I just want a boat i can pull home with my car when the season is over, and small enough to build in my workshop. I do have my Argie15 with Lug-rig for evening launching/sailing (2 minutes rigging) :-)

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Sendt Paul Gartside an email, and must give him cred for a fast reply. I have had contact with him about several designs, and hes not tired of me yet :-). He says in strong vinds DitchWitch need some crew ballast. Most important for me was to confirm DitchWitch could be build traditional lapstrake, and Gartside approve to that. I will start to make a model now, to see how much I like it.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Ditch Witch was the Mk2 version of Basher. I prefer Basher's keel arrangement - it's cut away aft for easier launching - though you say she'll be in a marina. Basher has less sail area too and the raised cabin is more practical. I've only been happy with trailer sailers like that, that put the engine in front of the rudder next to the helmsman. You have to be able to sit with one hand on the tiller and start & adjust the engine while still looking forward at times. Anything less poor trailer sailer design. Its also essential that he boom attaches to a tall tabernacle to make lowering the rig a lot easier. You would be better building it strip plank for trailer sailing/ storage over winter and put a big patch of kevlar where mooring buoys will rub if at the bows its ever on a mooring. Use titanium for all the centreboard pivot parts. You have to be able to pull the pin out if its a bit bent and ideally retrieve the centreboard from above without paying cranage to lift the boat off the centreboard. Coppercoat the centreboard and centercase if you don't do the rest. Either boat will be a wonderfull thing. We have a Gartside boat in the UK called an Oysterman 16 which is similar to these, even have inboard diesels. 7-10k. They have a small keel instead of a centerboard and can be taken in and out on dolly's that go onto the trailer. You could drive one back. There is a commercial ferry that goes to Norway still that takes a few cars in case you might to buy something similar.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Oysterman was a nice little ship Edvard, thanks for the inputs!

    I might add here that my goal here is not to get a trailer-sailer, the fastest easiest way. My goal is primarly the process of building a boat with traditional clinker lapstrake using local materials, but of course the design must appealing, and the boat must be enjoyable when finished too. The reason for looking at trailer sailers is that I want it in my shed in the winter. I do this with my 20 ft. Norlandsboat. My first plan was to build a boat strip planked, but I have been more and more interested in traditional building methods, and its also a better alternative in my unheated shop. When its warm enough to glue, I want to be on the water, sailing.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Fred,

    I agree, I think being able to boatbuilding in a winter is a better thing. Also with glued construction you have to stop and start again the next day. With traditional clinker, you can carry right on...

    I remember John Leather NA designed a small gaffer, the New Blossom for traditional clinker construction. Plans might be hard to get hold of now. I think it's 19ft. Probably too tight on a trailer for your shed. Dealing with a yacht designer who is still alive will be an advantage at times.



    With Chinese eberspacher diesel heaters @ 120 you can afford to heat these small boats much more cheaply now.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 01-08-2019 at 08:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Peerie Maa is 18' over the stems

    Has an 18' solid spar for a mast, is gunter (gaff) rigged, and does not take anywhere near an hour to rig and launch.
    Mine is a big lump for 18 ft, about a ton and a quarter, with lazyjacks, topping lift, three rows of reefing, jib and staysail, inner and outer stays, and most of all that run back to the cockpit, much the same as a much bigger boat. I agree that it takes much too long to get her rigged up, and as she draws more than 2 ft with the 'board" up launching and retrieving can be a mission.
    I'm working on all that, one row of reefing will not be set up, I've never had her down to her third reef anyway so thats three bits of string less. The topping lift is coming off, the lazyjacks can do that job. The inner forestay comes off as I've not found the staysail of any use plus the new carbon fibre mast is much stiffer than the old douglas fir one, and less than half the weight so doesnt need the inner stay. Note that the weight of the mast was an issue, standing it up was a major, not something that you could do by just grabbing it and pushing, it took a tackle and gin pole to stand that up, and that took time. The new one goes up with one hand!
    There are other time savings being worked on as well, she's in the shed being worked on now.

    I'm hoping to get that rigging time down to maybe 40 minutes. In the meantime, SEI, with her single lugsail takes less than 10.

    John Welsford
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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredostli View Post
    Thanks John

    Do you think she is overpowered? (btw there is a 630 lbs lead foot...) How would you compare stability with Gartside SjoginIII?

    If I build it she will be in a Marina in the summer and in a shed in winter. I just want a boat i can pull home with my car when the season is over, and small enough to build in my workshop. I do have my Argie15 with Lug-rig for evening launching/sailing (2 minutes rigging) :-)
    I'm generally very reluctant to comment on the work of other designers, especially one such as Paul Gartside who's work I much admire. But look at Sjogin, with her much deeper sections she has her ballast much lower so it has more leverage. Pauls comment that Ditch Witch will benefit from use of crew weight to hold her up is also a clue. Even the name of Ditch Witch indicates inshore, rivers, lakes and shallow sheltered waters.

    John Welsford
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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    I really appreciate your replies. I have realized there is no designs that are perfect, and its good to know all the aspects, and make a decision based on as much knowledge as posible. I decided 5 years ago I wanted to build a trailable sailer. Then I got this Nordlandsboat for free to be restored. After restoring it I decided I wanted a smaller quicker build and buildt the Argie 15 with a lug rig. sailing my Nordlandsboat and other traditional boats made me decide I wanted to build a traditional lapstrake boat. In this process I have being in love with several designs like Gartside Lugger 6m, Don Kyrulkos Myst18, Gartside Sjogin III and now DitchWitch. It will be used for some costal sailing and in fjords. Longer voyaging in Norhtern Norway requires something bigger for shure. Most sailing boats here is 30ft ++ plastic cruisers ;-)

    Is there a posibility to reduce the size of rig if it become a problem? It will anyhow be important with an effectiv reefing system. In the summers here we usually get a breeze in the mid of the day, and then there is very light wind in the evenings. Gartside did draw the jib with a roller furler, and also a storm jib, so its a god start to reduce power...

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    plus the new carbon fibre mast is much stiffer than the old douglas fir one, and less than half the weight so doesnt need the inner stay.
    John, did you make the mast yourself or buy it in?
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    I've only been happy with trailer sailers like that, that put the engine in front of the rudder next to the helmsman. You have to be able to sit with one hand on the tiller and start & adjust the engine while still looking forward at times. Anything less poor trailer sailer design.
    Or "anything less" could be a design by or for someone who has different tastes, preferences and desires than you. No o ne "has" to be able to sit with one hand on the tiller and start the engine.There are hundreds of trailer sailers with different outboard designs, which may have many positives including lower noise, easier stowage, better performance under sail and/or motor, reduced costs, etc etc etc.
    Last edited by Chris249; 01-13-2019 at 03:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Stiletto View Post
    John, did you make the mast yourself or buy it in?
    I was able to purchase a "second" carbon tube, about 2 metres short of the required length so made up a wooden plug for each end, the top tapered and stepped to take the hounds fitting, the lower end with a square section for the tabernacle and a ring platform for the boom jaws. Those plugs are hollow where appropriate. The whole thing, and its a substantial spar, can be picked up with one hand. I did weigh it when I first rigged the new spar, with all its cordage it was 9.8 kg.
    I'm re rigging the boat now after a refit, hope to have her sailing this coming week.

    John Welsford
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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredostli View Post
    I really appreciate your replies. I have realized there is no designs that are perfect, and its good to know all the aspects, and make a decision based on as much knowledge as posible. I decided 5 years ago I wanted to build a trailable sailer. Then I got this Nordlandsboat for free to be restored. After restoring it I decided I wanted a smaller quicker build and buildt the Argie 15 with a lug rig. sailing my Nordlandsboat and other traditional boats made me decide I wanted to build a traditional lapstrake boat. In this process I have being in love with several designs like Gartside Lugger 6m, Don Kyrulkos Myst18, Gartside Sjogin III and now DitchWitch. It will be used for some costal sailing and in fjords. Longer voyaging in Norhtern Norway requires something bigger for shure. Most sailing boats here is 30ft ++ plastic cruisers ;-)

    Is there a posibility to reduce the size of rig if it become a problem? It will anyhow be important with an effectiv reefing system. In the summers here we usually get a breeze in the mid of the day, and then there is very light wind in the evenings. Gartside did draw the jib with a roller furler, and also a storm jib, so its a god start to reduce power...
    Ask the designer.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    John,

    Try rigging without the row bands/ luff lacing. Provided you've got some purchase on your throat halyard (and preferably boom downhaul to tighten the mainsail luff) whenever I've not bothered, on 3 (smaller gaff and Gunter) boats now, I don't notice any loss of performance. Makes raising and dropping the mainsail a lot less of a bind. Just treat the gaff main luff like a lug.

    Chris,

    You're confusing 20ft centreboarder with a 20ft trailer sailer. When you singlehanded and approaching your immersed trailer in a small crosswind, you want the tiller in one hand, outboard control in the other and be looking forward during this period of stress and moment for pinpoint boat placement and control. Same when transitioning from sail to motor dropping sail and entering a marina.

    Most yacht designers don't integrate the outboard as needed because the aft cutaway necessary affects the lateral skeg area - affecting the centre of lateral resistance - affecting helm balance. By the time they've designed the boat and and considering that engine placement, it's too late and needs a redesign, so they just draw an outboard bracket. Ditch Witch's auxiliary is on the transom which isn't quite as bad. There are absolutely no advantages to having an outboard held off a transom bracket, infact a long list of performance and practical negatives. It's a significant contributing factor, along with rigging time (reduced if the boom attaches to a tall tabernacle) that makes a boat loved, or unloved and sold. Vivier's Ebihen motor arrangements are the best in the field - but would be even better if he arranged for the motor to tip up and the well filled like the Reid Marine Hawk 20. John Harris Pocketship's tall tabernacles lead that field. Bolger improved the Broads idea - swinging masts with weighted bottoms, by swinging the base down into the forward well. This put the finishe weighted mast heel low and its simply held with chocks or controlled with a belaying rope. That is great naval architecture high performance trailer sailer design.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    I personally do not like outboard well taking up place in the cockpit, but I do not like a cut in a beautiful transom either. If I build a boat in this category, the goal will be using a motor as little as posible. But I guess DitchWitchit will be harder to row than my 20 ft. Nordlandsboat (Narrow doubleender). If i could find a good electrical solution, that would be my choice. Some extra veight of batteries down low wouldn`t be bad either, as it will be sailed mostly singel or doublehanded. (Gartside consider designing it with inside ballast) It could be some pods, or an electric inboard. The electric motors take up little place (exept batteries )

    And yes, I drive an electric car ;-)

    Fred

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    From Ed's post, thanks Ed.

    Try rigging without the row bands/ luff lacing. Provided you've got some purchase on your throat halyard (and preferably boom downhaul to tighten the mainsail luff) whenever I've not bothered, on 3 (smaller gaff and Gunter) boats now, I don't notice any loss of performance. Makes raising and dropping the mainsail a lot less of a bind. Just treat the gaff main luff like a lug.


    Tried that, in this case its not working. Its a big piece of rag on a boat with very high stability. I rigged her yesterday with a variation of Bolgers figure of eight lacing with clips across the front face of the mast, its much quicker than lacing to the mast hoops every time the mast goes up or down. We'll see how that goes. By the way I've pics on my John Welsford Small Craft Design facebook page, will keep updating that thread as I progress the re rigging. The boats ancestry is from your part of the world, nice wee ship, not of my design but one which it is a privilege to care for.

    John Welsford
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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post

    Chris,

    You're confusing 20ft centreboarder with a 20ft trailer sailer. When you singlehanded and approaching your immersed trailer in a small crosswind, you want the tiller in one hand, outboard control in the other and be looking forward during this period of stress and moment Edward Pearson's for pinpoint boat placement and control. Same when transitioning from sail to motor dropping sail and entering a marina.

    Most yacht designers don't integrate the outboard as needed because the aft cutaway necessary affects the lateral skeg area - affecting the centre of lateral resistance - affecting helm balance. By the time they've designed the boat and and considering that engine placement, it's too late and needs a redesign, so they just draw an outboard bracket. Ditch Witch's auxiliary is on the transom which isn't quite as bad. There are absolutely no advantages to having an outboard held off a transom bracket, infact a long list of performance and practical negatives. It's a significant contributing factor, along with rigging time (reduced if the boom attaches to a tall tabernacle) that makes a boat loved, or unloved and sold. Vivier's Ebihen motor arrangements are the best in the field - but would be even better if he arranged for the motor to tip up and the well filled like the Reid Marine Hawk 20. John Harris Pocketship's tall tabernacles lead that field. Bolger improved the Broads idea - swinging masts with weighted bottoms, by swinging the base down into the forward well. This put the finishe weighted mast heel low and its simply held with chocks or controlled with a belaying rope. That is great naval architecture high performance trailer sailer design.
    Nope, I'm not confusing centreboarders with trailer sailers. I am saying that the mere fact that something does not suit your desires, needs, strengths, weaknesses etc does not make it "poor design", just like the fact that something does not suit me does not make it "poor design".

    There are in fact advantages to having an outboard on a standard stern bracket. It can make it very easy to put the outboard on or off since you don't have to lift it over the gunwale or put it into a well. Some brackets allow you to adjust the height so you can adjust for heel when motorsailing. Some of us also like to have an outboard that can be easily spun around for tight turns, or so we can have a small outboard without reverse. I may be wrong, but from what I can see the DW won't allow that. Furthermore, off-centre engines hung of a fixed-height bracket can be problematic when motorsailing because they can be cavitating on one tack and in danger of getting soaked on the other. Some people dislike wells because they tend to put the engine in the cockpit which is noisy and smelly, they normally prevent engine rotation, and there is some concern that the engine intakes its own fumes.

    It is doubtful that "most" yacht designers don't integrate the outboard because of skeg cutaway issues, because many tys (including those that are probably among the most popular such as the Catalina 22 and Beneteau 21Xs) don't have skegs. Many TY designers have actually spent a great deal of time and energy on outboard placement, as can be seen in craft such as the Noelex 25.

    Similarly, it is not "great high performance trailer sailer design" to put on a high tabernacle, a weight and an intrusive well if an individual owner doesn't want them! Such an arrangement can increase complexity and weight and take up space as well as affect rig tune and sailing performance. The designer of (say) a Micro Cupper or the TS 16, Castle 650, Beneteau 21X or Clubman 8 was not a "low performance designer" because he dared to make a choice that you felt he should not have made.

    We cannot simply say "I like feature X, therefore a boat that has it is good high-performance naval architecture and a boat that does not is a poor design" because that is merely an expression of our own preferences, prejudices, experience and situation.
    Last edited by Chris249; 01-14-2019 at 09:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Nice boat Fred. With regards to outboards, it depends on the boat. On the boats i have used a bracket and with stern lockers it has put the tiller out of reach when having to manually change gear and throttle settings, those engines also pitched out in a seaway. I do like the Vivier wells, all things being a compromise, though some with enough space to tilt the leg and with a hull closure are even better if performance under sail is an issue. A friend of mine dragged a Johnson 6hp leg around the globe as it could not be tilted in its locker, and his stern was not suitable for a bracket. Goes without saying, build whatever best suits your own needs and requirements.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Chris,

    1. Putting an outboards considerable weight at the very furthest point from the centre of pitch and buoyancy is detrimental to performance:the boat will pitch more in green waves. These amplify dynamic changes in entry, exit and LCB position which make it go slower and be less comfortable.
    2. Pitching stirs tank sediment in waves leading to blocked fuel filters and the engine stopping exactly when it needs to work.
    3. The prop will lift out and over rev when heeled and pitching motoring across a bar.
    4. Its going to be hard to refuel on the go even dangerous when pitching.
    5. Its also going to be exposed to salt, rain water, birds and easy theft when left.
    6. Your going to need to find a long shaft which are rarer beasts.
    7. There is no beneficial prop wash effect over the rudder.
    8. The controls can't be easily reached by the helmsman when transitioning from sail to motor, when berthing, trailering or moving on and off a mooring.
    9. The transom has to be strengthened and framed for the weight (see point one).
    10. You'll be busting your back taking it on and off on the water or trying to move a semi corroded spring actuated lifter or slider.
    11. The prop will spin in shallower most turbulent aft surface water where it works less efficiently.
    12. Its aesthetically inferior.

    I've had a 18-24ft boats with both arrangements. One contributes to a civilised afternoon - like every man with an inboard and controls next to the helm, the other is the very definition of a naval architects afterthought. Its not a subjective matter. The bland GRP trailer sailers you mention don't integrate a well to keep fabrication costs down, perhaps understandable in a price conscious sector, but people who build there own boats can and should enjoy better solutions. For most people engine placement and rigging time, make or break a 20ft trailer sailer. You only realise this once you've got one and had it a few years. It is why most become sequentially unloved. To realise this after just buying one is unfortunate, to realise this after building one for 5 years would be tragic.

    In Fred's case this a 16ft boat (and a very nice one Fred - you should build it) and an electric Torquedo built down into the transom should be close enough. The hum of an electric install is also civilising: it feels halfway between sailing and conventional motoring. The battery heads come off them making it easier to move, take home to recharge or store, even the tiller arms disconnect easily. The remaining leg sections alone are very light to move and hydrodynamic if left down. The entire unit is waterproofed. Fred, to avoid the pitfalls you want Basher's bottom when you launch and retrieve it, Ditch Witch's picture perfect cabin top when your looking at it, Basher's smaller rig so your not overpowered, Ebihen's motor arrangement under engine and Pocketships tabernacle when your raising and lowering the rig so its all done by the forestay - ship in a bottle style. A tilting swing beam roller coaster trailer not bunked either. If your going to circumvent launching issues by craning her into the marina, check that they don't have a minimum length cranage fee - its usually 28ft/ folk boat size in the UK anyway.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 01-15-2019 at 06:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Tried that, in this case its not working. Its a big piece of rag on a boat with very high stability. I rigged her yesterday with a variation of Bolgers figure of eight lacing with clips across the front face of the mast, its much quicker than lacing to the mast hoops every time the mast goes up or down. We'll see how that goes. By the way I've pics on my John Welsford Small Craft Design facebook page, will keep updating that thread as I progress the re rigging. The boats ancestry is from your part of the world, nice wee ship, not of my design but one which it is a privilege to care for.

    John Welsford
    Was you mast bending and reducing luff tension? Were the leeward stays going very slack? Hopefully your new carbon mast will be an improvement.

    I rig my small 4 corner sail luffs as a game of two halves. I make sure there is a dyneema roband that sits vertically up from the top sail cringle, attaching over the gaff, so that gaff throat halyard tensions the sail luff directly/ preferentially and not lost in the gaff. The roband has to be vertical above the cringle - the attachment point to the gaff is often a good few inches from the jaws with most sail cuts. It has to be tensioned just so - not too tight so there is a crease, not to slack so its not doing anything. Then with the throat halyard and boom 6:1 downhaul - the luff goes pretty taught - it can't really not. The other part - sail luff tension towards the peak, is obviously controlled by a dyneema knot tensioned so it all sets nice after a few goes - that stays tensioned - not ideal for the sail but there we are. These are all 10 sqm +/- mainsails, maybe it doesn't work on bigger ones like your gaffer. Adjustable outhaul takes care of camber and kicker for twist etc.

    The way of rigging the sail luff rope that doesn't go all the way around 360 degrees before coming back in from of the mast shown in books - I didn't find it all that effective in reducing friction/ trouble either, so eventually just pulled the whole thing off.

    The carbon spars on my current boat look to be two pack painted white have held up fine - no abrasion of paint etc. Leathered jaws and small plastic parallel beads. Did car polish then polish/ coat it all with Sailcote so it slides easy though. Fred - make Ditch Witch's main mast/ spars as ruthlessly hollow/ light as humanly possible.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 01-15-2019 at 11:54 AM.

  26. #26
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    Default

    DitchWitch is 18ft 6 inch on deck but the deck is one foot longer than the hull.

    I do not worrie about outboard solution right now. This is an issue no matter what design I chose in this size, but I know I do not want it inside the boat in a well. Gartside know its a powerful rig, and I believe it can be redesigned if I want it smaller. The plans show a hollow mast, and I will use spruce.

    I will have a trailer to launch it from, so no cranes needed. I know there is lighter design for a trailer-sailer, but the plan is launching in spring and keeping it in a Marina untill fall, and in a shed during the winter. So I do not need it to be super easy to launch, I have my Argie15 for that. I also have other boats, and night take other restoring or building project after this. After all its a fun hobby, and 5 years might be realistisk but I hope 3...

    Sent fra min SM-N950F via Tapatalk
    Last edited by Fredostli; 01-15-2019 at 03:42 PM.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Thougts on Gartside #225 "Ditch Witch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Chris,

    1. Putting an outboards considerable weight at the very furthest point from the centre of pitch and buoyancy is detrimental to performance:the boat will pitch more in green waves. These amplify dynamic changes in entry, exit and LCB position which make it go slower and be less comfortable.
    2. Pitching stirs tank sediment in waves leading to blocked fuel filters and the engine stopping exactly when it needs to work.
    3. The prop will lift out and over rev when heeled and pitching motoring across a bar.
    4. Its going to be hard to refuel on the go even dangerous when pitching.
    5. Its also going to be exposed to salt, rain water, birds and easy theft when left.
    6. Your going to need to find a long shaft which are rarer beasts.
    7. There is no beneficial prop wash effect over the rudder.
    8. The controls can't be easily reached by the helmsman when transitioning from sail to motor, when berthing, trailering or moving on and off a mooring.
    9. The transom has to be strengthened and framed for the weight (see point one).
    10. You'll be busting your back taking it on and off on the water or trying to move a semi corroded spring actuated lifter or slider.
    11. The prop will spin in shallower most turbulent aft surface water where it works less efficiently.
    12. Its aesthetically inferior.

    I've had a 18-24ft boats with both arrangements. One contributes to a civilised afternoon - like every man with an inboard and controls next to the helm, the other is the very definition of a naval architects afterthought. Its not a subjective matter. The bland GRP trailer sailers you mention don't integrate a well to keep fabrication costs down, perhaps understandable in a price conscious sector, but people who build there own boats can and should enjoy better solutions. For most people engine placement and rigging time, make or break a 20ft trailer sailer. You only realise this once you've got one and had it a few years. It is why most become sequentially unloved. To realise this after just buying one is unfortunate, to realise this after building one for 5 years would be tragic.

    In Fred's case this a 16ft boat (and a very nice one Fred - you should build it) and an electric Torquedo built down into the transom should be close enough. The hum of an electric install is also civilising: it feels halfway between sailing and conventional motoring. The battery heads come off them making it easier to move, take home to recharge or store, even the tiller arms disconnect easily. The remaining leg sections alone are very light to move and hydrodynamic if left down. The entire unit is waterproofed. Fred, to avoid the pitfalls you want Basher's bottom when you launch and retrieve it, Ditch Witch's picture perfect cabin top when your looking at it, Basher's smaller rig so your not overpowered, Ebihen's motor arrangement under engine and Pocketships tabernacle when your raising and lowering the rig so its all done by the forestay - ship in a bottle style. A tilting swing beam roller coaster trailer not bunked either. If your going to circumvent launching issues by craning her into the marina, check that they don't have a minimum length cranage fee - its usually 28ft/ folk boat size in the UK anyway.
    Edward;

    I had a 20 footer and a 28 footer with outboards, and have sailed many trailer sailers. Yes, wells do have advantages for some people - but many of the factors you list are utterly irrelevant to many people and wells have many problems that outweigh their benefits for some people.

    None of us is the god of sailing. Other people can have their own preferences, needs and desires even if they are not the same as you. Take the issue of theft that you mentioned. I know people who leave their tys in environments with little security. They find it easier to keep the outboard at home and lift the outboard on and off a transom or transom bracket. An outboard in a well is harder to take from car boot to operating position and back again. OK, in your storage situation a well may be more secure, but that is YOUR situation and not everyone else's.

    Whether a prop in a well is more immersed at various angles of pitch and heel depends on the individual boat, speed and heel (as I found when sketching my own arrangement which is neither a well or conventional stern-mounted device) and the bracket option allows the depth to be changed. The issue of prop wash over a rudder versus being able to swing the outboard around for steering is again, a personal one. On my 28'er (which went over a bar and offshore regularly) I went from a diesel that had forward controls and propwash to an outboard over the stern, and personally found the latter superior for handling in confined waters - it's easy to sit with the engine tiller in one hand and the rudder's extension tiller in the other, and steer with both at the same time.

    If you prefer one engine arrangement that's great, but is not a matter of something being "good design" if it suits your own situation and preferences, and "bad design" if it does not.
    Last edited by Chris249; 01-15-2019 at 07:11 PM.

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