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Thread: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ferguson View Post
    There will only be 14 molds and they are 500mm (20") apart. I'm only using them at the called out stations and the half stations (intermediate frames) will be steamed and bent after the boat is turned upright.
    Could be that you can find a planking schedule already worked out somewhere.

    Everywhere that you're going to have a bulkhead you can glue on futtocks for frames before you assemble the forms etc. Futtocks are much easier than laminating. Like this, where each side is 3 pieces;

    Big Dory Build 2 005.jpg

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Trivial difference to the amount of work making all of the moulds and clips and bracing everything solid, and does not address the issue of turning over a 25' by 7' hull when not in a factory with a squad of boatbuilders to call on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    Could be that you can find a planking schedule already worked out somewhere.

    Everywhere that you're going to have a bulkhead you can glue on futtocks for frames before you assemble the forms etc. Futtocks are much easier than laminating. Like this, where each side is 3 pieces;

    Big Dory Build 2 005.jpg
    That is two frames sorted then
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ferguson View Post
    What type do you recommend John? I'm assuming from your response you have experience with them.
    If it was my project I would use a hammer like Nick's.The riveter Jake shows is the correct type of pneumatic tool and should not be substituted by an air chisel with a flat face.

  4. #39

    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You are laminating them, yes? Will they be the same scantlings as the steamed timbers?
    Yes. The steam bent frames will be 28mmx28mm as well as the laminated frames I use with the molds. That's slightly larger than the 23x28mm frames specified in the plans. I see no reason why it will hurt to make that slight change. Several of the interior photos of the Nordic Folkboats in Europe, that I've seen interior photos of, have made changes to the frame sizes. Some actually look like the intermediate frames are significantly smaller than the ones used at the stations. I thought about making my station frames 1-1/2x1-1/2, which is much larger, but I'm worried about deviating from the plans too much.

    I'd like to pick your brain about this though................Another thing I've seen in the photos are the exposed edges at the laps being rounded over a lot, like maybe 3/8ths. The planks are 5/8". The interior edges don't look rounded much. What would you recommend for rounding over the edge of the planks where they are against the frames? and the frames where they are not against the planks?

  5. #40

    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    Could be that you can find a planking schedule already worked out somewhere.

    Everywhere that you're going to have a bulkhead you can glue on futtocks for frames before you assemble the forms etc. Futtocks are much easier than laminating. Like this, where each side is 3 pieces;

    Big Dory Build 2 005.jpg

    I'm not seeing what you are talking about. I know its due to my minimal amount of knowledge when it comes to boat building. Aren't futtocks the individual pieces the make up sawn frames?

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    I think building upside down is complicating the build for no reason. The only advantage I see in upside down building is in fairing the planking, and that you don't have to do.
    Laminating frames (and other pieces like the stem) is best done on the bench, with a jig, with the bevel cut on the bandsaw. I would go all the way and make ringframes with integrated floors and also laminate and screw the hanging knees (to be removed for the beam shelf installation). Put diagonal braces on the ringframes and you don't need molds anymore. In order to corectly position molds in right side up builds you can use an overhead beam.
    I think the frame scantlings are chosen for rivets not screws. If you stay with the steamed ribs scantlings I think it's best to use rivets. They are also cheaper then screws and offer assurance against potential delaminations.
    When laminating frames please laminate all of them, don't mix them with steamed ones. Laminated frames will usually be stronger and the steamed ones will crack first. Same effect as mixing sawn with steamed frames.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ferguson View Post
    I'm not seeing what you are talking about. I know its due to my minimal amount of knowledge when it comes to boat building. Aren't futtocks the individual pieces the make up sawn frames?
    Yes, they are. In this case there's only one layer of futtocks, three per side, and that layer is glued right to the bulkhead. It goes pretty quickly.

    A potential problem with this though is that the inner edge will be hard to bevel in place for ceiling unless you can do it before applying it to the bulkheads. On this hull there will not be much ceiling, and only midships where it doesn't require much beveling anyway, so I'll probably only bevel for half of the frame's width to save time, perhaps with a rasp followed by a sanding block.

    If I remember correctly Folkboats don't have ceiling anyway.

    And to add my opinion regarding rounding over edges, I would do them all with sandpaper on a sanding block, and much less than 3/8, like maybe 1/8.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ferguson View Post
    Yes. The steam bent frames will be 28mmx28mm as well as the laminated frames I use with the molds. That's slightly larger than the 23x28mm frames specified in the plans. I see no reason why it will hurt to make that slight change. Several of the interior photos of the Nordic Folkboats in Europe, that I've seen interior photos of, have made changes to the frame sizes. Some actually look like the intermediate frames are significantly smaller than the ones used at the stations. I thought about making my station frames 1-1/2x1-1/2, which is much larger, but I'm worried about deviating from the plans too much.

    I'd like to pick your brain about this though................Another thing I've seen in the photos are the exposed edges at the laps being rounded over a lot, like maybe 3/8ths. The planks are 5/8". The interior edges don't look rounded much. What would you recommend for rounding over the edge of the planks where they are against the frames? and the frames where they are not against the planks?
    Good, changing the stiffness of alternate timbers in a lapstrake boat is not a good ides

    Break sharp corners of timbers and plank edges for two reasons, paint and varnish covers better on a soft edge, and they are nicer to live with in places that your skin rubs against them.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    I have to ask the obvious question.Have you costed the whole project and compared it to buying one of the abundant International Folkboats around the Baltic and sliding it into a container for a trip home?You could be sailing in a few weeks,rather than several years.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I have to ask the obvious question.Have you costed the whole project and compared it to buying one of the abundant International Folkboats around the Baltic and sliding it into a container for a trip home?You could be sailing in a few weeks,rather than several years.
    That's a fair question. A tired wooden Nordic Folkboat (meaning one advertised as needing some TLC and in reality you end up doing a full rebuild) is going to cost about the same as having the iron ballast cast new. If the boat is on the same continent it might even be half the price of the ballast.

    The IF's are fiberglass, most need a wash and a buffing and are good to go hull wise.

  11. #46

    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    That's a fair question. A tired wooden Nordic Folkboat (meaning one advertised as needing some TLC and in reality you end up doing a full rebuild) is going to cost about the same as having the iron ballast cast new. If the boat is on the same continent it might even be half the price of the ballast.

    The IF's are fiberglass, most need a wash and a buffing and are good to go hull wise.
    So far, my cost estimates with a keel for this boat delivered to my location is $2200 ($1 per lb). My other option would be to use lead (I have 1,200 lbs) and replace the rest of the mass with dead wood. The second option is what I am most likely going to do.

    I've had other folks make the same comment about buying an existing Folkboat to refurb instead of building a new one. My best efforts on that search turned up a boat, actually for sale (most listings are actually already sold), that was $13,000. Delivery to Texas is $4,000. The keel bolts, deck, some frames, and floor timbers would have to be replaced. My lumber on this boat (approximately 1,800 bd ft at an average cost of $1500 mbf) is $2,700, and that's figuring in a significant waste factor. I still need 1,000 lbs of lead at a cost of about $750. I have no idea what the bronze fasteners, marine plywood, teak plank for the deck, rigging, sails, and finishing goods are going to cost me on this project. I have a trailer but I'm considering putting new axles on it, and it needs painted. If I can successfully build a new Nordic Folkboat with my modifications built into it, and have fun doing it for the next four years, I think it would be worth $15,000.

    I didn't plan on getting off track from my original subject but now that I have, I am curious about what feedback others may have on costs for this project. I expect to put in about 3,500 hours of labor into this project; mostly mine but some maybe hired out. There's a couple of hundred items that have be shaped and then it all put together in order to build this boat. Based on all that, I would say that a new wooden Nordic Folkboat is worth about $60,000, even though I am not planning to offer it for sale once it is finished. A brand new one recently sold for about $35,000 plus $9,000 shipping. I think the buyer got a bargain.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    ^A rule of thumb is that the hull costs the same as the outfit, which costs the same as the rig and sais, which costs the same as the motor installation if she has one.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #48
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Have you seen this? https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1369834/ I would be surprised if a container across the Atlantic costs much over $2500.You might be able to sail it home from the port of arrival.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Have you seen this? https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1369834/ I would be surprised if a container across the Atlantic costs much over $2500.You might be able to sail it home from the port of arrival.
    Having recently imported a slightly smaller boat from the UK this is about right. What I did was bring it to the east coast, get it rolled out of the container. Then I had to refurb the trailer a bit ( tires) and add a light bar. Had to modify a US trailer ball to fit. Then tow it to Maine. I didn't have a big enough truck so needed to rent same. I think the real question here is do you really want to have fun building the boat? Or is getting it sailing a higher priority?

    There are haulers that could shift the boat for you once here.

    I note as well that this would be first build. You will likely need some kind of dinghy and it might not be a bad thing to knock out a lapstrake dinghy using the system that you want to use for the Folkboat first.
    Last edited by Ben Fuller; 01-06-2019 at 05:02 PM.
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  15. #50
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ferguson View Post
    So far, my cost estimates with a keel for this boat delivered to my location is $2200 ($1 per lb). My other option would be to use lead (I have 1,200 lbs) and replace the rest of the mass with dead wood. The second option is what I am most likely going to do.

    I've had other folks make the same comment about buying an existing Folkboat to refurb instead of building a new one. My best efforts on that search turned up a boat, actually for sale (most listings are actually already sold), that was $13,000. Delivery to Texas is $4,000. The keel bolts, deck, some frames, and floor timbers would have to be replaced. My lumber on this boat (approximately 1,800 bd ft at an average cost of $1500 mbf) is $2,700, and that's figuring in a significant waste factor. I still need 1,000 lbs of lead at a cost of about $750. I have no idea what the bronze fasteners, marine plywood, teak plank for the deck, rigging, sails, and finishing goods are going to cost me on this project. I have a trailer but I'm considering putting new axles on it, and it needs painted. If I can successfully build a new Nordic Folkboat with my modifications built into it, and have fun doing it for the next four years, I think it would be worth $15,000.

    I didn't plan on getting off track from my original subject but now that I have, I am curious about what feedback others may have on costs for this project. I expect to put in about 3,500 hours of labor into this project; mostly mine but some maybe hired out. There's a couple of hundred items that have be shaped and then it all put together in order to build this boat. Based on all that, I would say that a new wooden Nordic Folkboat is worth about $60,000, even though I am not planning to offer it for sale once it is finished. A brand new one recently sold for about $35,000 plus $9,000 shipping. I think the buyer got a bargain.
    I think you are underestimating both cost and time reqired.
    As a comparison, my "real" boat (I built a small half-dory before) cost ~USD 6000 without rig, sails, ballast, motor, paint, ropes, and varnish.
    I worked on it for about 4 semesters at a boat building school so I had proffessional guidence and needed not buy any tools.
    And this is a 19" open boat.
    Of course material may be much cheaper for you, but still...
    The waste was a little over 50%, I don't know what you consider "significant", so you may be spot on there.
    And don't underestimate or forget the price of nails, roves, screws, and deck and mast hardware.
    Not meant to discourage you.

    /Mats
    Yes the avatar depicts me; yes I drew the comic boat pic, it's a joke on the pop song I'm not a robot by Marina and the diamonds

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    A Nordic Folkboat would have to 'measure' to be in class.

    I would build it the Herreshoff method.

    A. It allows you to put the steamed ribs in compression (with a block and metal strap) as the bend around the molds. This ensures the outer fibres of the rib don't go into extension around the bilge radius. This weakens it leading to premature failure. This is what happens if you put the steamed ribs in after the hull is planked.

    B. The greater number of molds, coupled with fitting the planking to the ribs, which were fitted directly onto the lofted molds, means you're more likely to have the boat 'measure' when it's upright.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 01-07-2019 at 06:13 AM.

  17. #52

    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    A Nordic Folkboat would have to 'measure' to be in class.

    I would build it the Herreshoff method.

    A. It allows you to put the steamed ribs in compression (with a block and metal strap) as the bend around the molds. This ensures the outer fibres of the rib don't go into extension around the bilge radius. This weakens it leading to premature failure. This is what happens if you put the steamed ribs in after the hull is planked.

    B. The greater number of molds, coupled with fitting the planking to the ribs, which were fitted directly onto the lofted molds, means you're more likely to have the boat 'measure' when it's upright.
    Thanks Edward. I'm glad you brought this up because I've been wondering how my alterations would impact it being qualified to compete with other Nordic Folkboats if I ever wanted to do that. The main thing I am doing that it says not to do on the construction plans is to laminate the backbone members and will probably laminate the frames. My issue is that I am not willing to spend money on timbers that have already been air drying for several years or professionally kiln dried. I'm actually ordering lumber today for the project that will consist of three 20' white oak logs and four southern yellow pine (hopefully Longleaf) logs all plainsawn to be finished and laminated as needed. That will all air dry for about 9-10 months when I'll start using the white oak to laminate with resorcinol into the stem, keel, stern post, floor timbers, and deck beams. I've decided I am going to build the boat upside down using the Herreshoff method.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    If it's going to be just another Folkboat lookalike you can carvel plank it and use the strenghts of your building method. Nordic Folkboats are a one design class, it's either legal or not, and your's will not be. Make a British Folkboat out of it and it may still retain some value.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    I have question.
    Are lapstrake Folkboats typically screw fastened at the ribs - are they not typically through fastened with rivets at the ribs as well as frame bays?
    I think frame dimensions were mentioned earlier - but as an example, even 1 1/4" molded sounds like a marginal frame scantling for receiving a screw through 1 1/4" net plank thickness (5/8 plus 5/8). Yes I know some lap thickness comes off in places. I also know that rarely do you accurately bisect the plank angle at the lap, effectively requiring a longer fastening.

    Given steam bent frame scantlings, I would assume these hulls to be riveted throughout, taking advantage of the lapstrake construction. Maybe I'm wrong. Heavier sawn futtocks would be a different story.
    Eric

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    I have question.
    Are lapstrake Folkboats typically screw fastened at the ribs - are they not typically through fastened with rivets at the ribs as well as frame bays?
    I think frame dimensions were mentioned earlier - but as an example, even 1 1/4" molded sounds like a marginal frame scantling for receiving a screw through 1 1/4" net plank thickness (5/8 plus 5/8). Yes I know some lap thickness comes off in places. I also know that rarely do you accurately bisect the plank angle at the lap, effectively requiring a longer fastening.

    Given steam bent frame scantlings, I would assume these hulls to be riveted throughout, taking advantage of the lapstrake construction. Maybe I'm wrong. Heavier sawn futtocks would be a different story.
    Eric
    Copper rivets. Screwing into steamed timbers is a US thing. I am not even sure that you can source the short fat bronze screws needed over here.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  21. #56
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    I would strongly advise building right side up, if only for the ability to line off the planking. With lapstrake the lining off is vitally important in achieving a good looking craft.
    Second would be fastening, rivets are really the only way to go with these scantlings, and stay away from anything but a cross peen or ball peen hammer for riveting. The biggest learning curve is how hard to strike to prevent bending the rivet shank, and riveting upside down is a PITA.
    I cannot think of any advantage in doing this upside down, even if you had several alike hulls to build.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Building Upside Down - Lapstrake Planking

    For smaller boats, fitting the garboards is hell building them right side up, the rest is easy peasy. For a Folkboat I too se no reason.

    /Mats
    Yes the avatar depicts me; yes I drew the comic boat pic, it's a joke on the pop song I'm not a robot by Marina and the diamonds

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