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Thread: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    This is this... https://www.thegrommet.com/etape16-d...yABEgJ2_vD_BwE

    Conversion at the touch of a button!





  2. #37
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    No grief here at all, nor any angst either. Sorry that you were so put off by my candor. I don't think one should ever apologize for telling the truth. I'm sure that once you really look at the issue you will see the answer is pretty simple and as Dave said, its just numbers that are easily correlated. Its 2.54cm or 25.4mm per inch not 25mm, which can make for appreciable errors using the rounded off figure on some measurements. Might as well get it right to start with.

    The lumber industry is not trying to fool or cheat buyers as some may conclude. The thicknessXwidth numbers represent the lumber as it comes from the mill and before any drying or finish dimension milling, so you are paying for the raw stock. Lumber is available in several stages from the raw wet state to dry but unplaned as well as minor surfaced one side, full surface one side, surfaced both sides, edged or not edged, on to the common final dimension that you buy in the store or yard. What you buy depends on what you want to do with it.

    Only if you attempt to convert Tom.

    Why would you do that with an all metric plan ????

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    This is this... https://www.thegrommet.com/etape16-d...yABEgJ2_vD_BwE

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    Nice! VERY nice. Thx!

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    No grief here at all, nor any angst either. Sorry that you were so put off by my candor. I don't think one should ever apologize for telling the truth. I'm sure that once you really look at the issue you will see the answer is pretty simple and as Dave said, its just numbers that are easily correlated. Its 2.54cm or 25.4mm per inch not 25mm, which can make for appreciable errors using the rounded off figure on some measurements. Might as well get it right to start with.

    The lumber industry is not trying to fool or cheat buyers as some may conclude. The thicknessXwidth numbers represent the lumber as it comes from the mill and before any drying or finish dimension milling, so you are paying for the raw stock. Lumber is available in several stages from the raw wet state to dry but unplaned as well as minor surfaced one side, full surface one side, surfaced both sides, edged or not edged, on to the common final dimension that you buy in the store or yard. What you buy depends on what you want to do with it.

    Tom - Thank you for the clarification. Truth is great and should be spoken all the time. I think maybe Iíve become a bit calloused due to all the nonsense that is mixed in. Ok, I think Iím on the same page now.

    Being my first build I want to get it right so I need resources like this forum. I certainly appreciate all the knowledge that is shared here. Hopefully I can return with more questions as I move forward.

    I expect to to order the full plans in the next few weeks. Iíve got to get the build site ready and consult with my CFO regarding the initial financial investment.

    Regards!!!

  5. #40

    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    I haven't started building a boat yet but I'm redrafting an old set of plans that have dimensions in millimeters. I'm hooked on the metric system now. If you do need to convert any dimensions or a table of offsets that is in millimeters to inches, just divide by 25.4. Its also easy to visualize in metrics once you realize that approximately 25mm=1inch, and approximately 300mm=1ft. In my opinion, the metric system is significantly more accurate (no more plus or minus a sixteenth) and less prone to mistakes when doing math.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    A pocket calculator might be helpful too.
    No doubt, if you're a builder in the US instead of asking for a 2" x4" x8' you would need a 50.8 millimeters x 101.6 millimeters x 2.438 meters, what would that BOM look like for a house.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ferguson View Post
    I haven't started building a boat yet but I'm redrafting an old set of plans that have dimensions in millimeters. I'm hooked on the metric system now. If you do need to convert any dimensions or a table of offsets that is in millimeters to inches, just divide by 25.4. Its also easy to visualize in metrics once you realize that approximately 25mm=1inch, and approximately 300mm=1ft. In my opinion, the metric system is significantly more accurate (no more plus or minus a sixteenth) and less prone to mistakes when doing math.
    So right. Unfortunately, getting past the ingrown (inbred?) head start that the current system has had for hundreds of years is not as simple as actually making the change. Fortunately, many industries have already gone metric and more and more people will get used to the much superior system. Unfortunately, having both systems in use at the same time also causes confusion as well as many unnecessary searches for the right tools. The demise of the domestic plywood industry has added to more exposure to metrics although many still use the old english nomenclature while using metric plywood.
    Tom L

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by SCK47 View Post
    OK I get it. What do you do about lumber? Mill it to metric?
    Generally the lumber sizing in metric and imperial is pretty close. For example, 20mm is near enough to 3/4in finished, or 1 in ex mill sizing. 45mm is what you get when 2in has been through the planer, and so on. Most small craft designers try to stay close to the sizing that you get from the lumber yard, in thickness anyway, and a couple of mm each way doesnt make much difference to strength.
    Tape measures are cool, but do try and get a 1 metre long steel ruler, you'll find that even better for the close work.
    All the best with your build.
    Keep us posted.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ferguson View Post
    I haven't started building a boat yet but I'm redrafting an old set of plans that have dimensions in millimeters. I'm hooked on the metric system now. If you do need to convert any dimensions or a table of offsets that is in millimeters to inches, just divide by 25.4. Its also easy to visualize in metrics once you realize that approximately 25mm=1inch, and approximately 300mm=1ft. In my opinion, the metric system is significantly more accurate (no more plus or minus a sixteenth) and less prone to mistakes when doing math.
    For an average sized guy, 25mm is about the width of your thumb, 100mm is about the width of the palm of your hand, 200mm is about a handspan, a metre is about the distance from your outstretched fingertips to your nose when your head is turned away from your fingertips, and a kilometre is about as far as you'd want to walk to get your morning coffee.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    You guys shouldn't complain.... I like to work in metric, but my wife prefers imperial....

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    I bought a metric/imperial tape for my Navigator project. It does make it much easier.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    This is this... https://www.thegrommet.com/etape16-d...yABEgJ2_vD_BwE

    Conversion at the touch of a button!




    .
    Don’t you love technology! Thank you.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ferguson View Post
    I haven't started building a boat yet but I'm redrafting an old set of plans that have dimensions in millimeters. I'm hooked on the metric system now. If you do need to convert any dimensions or a table of offsets that is in millimeters to inches, just divide by 25.4. Its also easy to visualize in metrics once you realize that approximately 25mm=1inch, and approximately 300mm=1ft. In my opinion, the metric system is significantly more accurate (no more plus or minus a sixteenth) and less prone to mistakes when doing math.
    I can see you actually understand the facts.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Generally the lumber sizing in metric and imperial is pretty close. For example, 20mm is near enough to 3/4in finished, or 1 in ex mill sizing. 45mm is what you get when 2in has been through the planer, and so on. Most small craft designers try to stay close to the sizing that you get from the lumber yard, in thickness anyway, and a couple of mm each way doesnt make much difference to strength.
    Tape measures are cool, but do try and get a 1 metre long steel ruler, you'll find that even better for the close work.
    All the best with your build.
    Keep us posted.

    John Welsford
    Thank you. I’ve already put several lengths of metric steel rulers on my wish list at Amazon. Even a metric engineers/ carpenters folding rule, just for the fun of it. Actually, they’re very handy (pocket) and easy to use for checking measurements.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark0 View Post
    You guys shouldn't complain.... I like to work in metric, but my wife prefers imperial....
    I am of an age where I started imperial and then converted to metric at school, so I am bidimensional.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Metric is a LOT easier to get precise measurements to the nearest millimetre and it is a lot easier to measure (say) 18mm than 17/32nd of an inch.

    For those older people needing more lamp oil for the old eyeballs and are having difficulty in seeing things close up, this is a technique that helps ... it saves constantly having to remove and replace spectacles and losing them all the time. Ask me how I know ...

    \\https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NxULMN3EQU

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_B View Post
    Metric is a LOT easier to get precise measurements to the nearest millimetre and it is a lot easier to measure (say) 18mm than 17/32nd of an inch.

    For those older people needing more lamp oil for the old eyeballs and are having difficulty in seeing things close up, this is a technique that helps ... it saves constantly having to remove and replace spectacles and losing them all the time. Ask me how I know ...

    \\https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NxULMN3EQU
    Yes its easier , and no one will achieve 1 mm accuracy over the entire build anyway.

    If it mattered , all older , traditional builds would be rejects .

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I am of an age where I started imperial and then converted to metric at school, so I am bidimensional.
    Yes , me too Peerie , we started changing over in 1966 here , but honestly , which would you prefer ?

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by SCK47 View Post
    .
    Don’t you love technology! Thank you.
    I'm skeptical of much of the shop tool gadgetry but for working with metric/imperial, the digital tape mentioned by canoeyawl looks like a good one for working with boats in both systems. How the inventor got it to maintain accuracy over long usage (assuming it does) warrants several huzzahs.
    Tom L

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    I bought the imperial versions for a boat drawn in metric. I would have saved a lot of time with the metric plans. Go with metric.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    I am like Peera, bought up in ft & in, but metric for most of my working life.
    Odd things d happen though. I got a call from a hotel in Portugal that I had done a lot of work for. They had booked a singer for the night spot I had built and needed a safety rail for the dias she would stand on. Told me the height and needed it that evening. I questioned the height as it was very low, but they confirmed it. Somehow they had given me inches instead of metric and it was the perfect height to trip her up.
    Currently building to plans in ft & in. So use a double sided tape & measure TWICE.
    A2

  22. #57
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    Just go all metric. It will change your life for the better. And drive on the left.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    With no disrespect intended towards the original poster or the many who responded, I'm afraid this question has go be put in the same category as "What do singlehanded sailors in the middle of the ocean do at night when the water is too deep for them to anchor and sleep."

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    With no disrespect intended towards the original poster or the many who responded, I'm afraid this question has go be put in the same category as "What do singlehanded sailors in the middle of the ocean do at night when the water is too deep for them to anchor and sleep."
    Drift?

    Thread drift:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    I'm skeptical of much of the shop tool gadgetry but for working with metric/imperial, the digital tape mentioned by canoeyawl looks like a good one for working with boats in both systems. How the inventor got it to maintain accuracy over long usage (assuming it does) warrants several huzzahs.
    I think that there is a 'bar code' down the center of the tape, so it may read absolute position, which would be more reliable than a tachometer. There is a Starrett with the same markings and a comparison test with other staight mechanical tapes here: https://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArch...asuremat1.html that also thinks the markings are read optically.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    With no disrespect intended towards the original poster or the many who responded, I'm afraid this question has go be put in the same category as "What do singlehanded sailors in the middle of the ocean do at night when the water is too deep for them to anchor and sleep."
    Mr. Cleek- I’d pray.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    With no disrespect intended towards the original poster or the many who responded, I'm afraid this question has go be put in the same category as "What do singlehanded sailors in the middle of the ocean do at night when the water is too deep for them to anchor and sleep."
    Its a silly question isnt it, because in 3 seconds they will no longer be in the middle of the ocean.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Being metric headed, I actually had a hell of a time building the Nutshell pram, not because of lumber dimensions, just because the imperial numbers mean nothing to me, and are easily misread.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Hi,

    I just went through the task of upsizing a boat from 13'6" to 15' and drawing metric plans. I used this online tool: https://www.inchcalculator.com/inch-...on-calculator/
    This calculator allows you to do things things like 2' 3" 17/64 * 1.6 and gives the results in imp and metric. It obviously does straight conversions as well. Very helpful.

    Cheers,

    Peter

  29. #64

    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    send them to tad Roberts, i sent one of my designs in metric to him, he returned it in imperial
    Boat Designer. Boatbuilder

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Fortunately, many industries have already gone metric and more and more people will get used to the much inferior system.
    Fixed that for you

    The metric system sucks. Not because I am a fearful old goat, but because it sucks in real use in real life. It is way less convenient and less accurate (I routinely worked to .0002" tolerances.) Metric threads suck, metric teeth suck, the units suck, the entire system sucks. It's garbage.

    And that's all I'm going to say about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter radclyffe View Post
    send them to Tad Roberts, i sent one of my designs in metric to him, he returned it in imperial ...
    Good for Tad ! The man's obviously got taste and skill

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Quote Originally Posted by Favorite View Post
    Fixed that for you

    The metric system sucks. Not because I am a fearful old goat, but because it sucks in real use in real life. It is way less convenient and less accurate (I routinely worked to .0002" tolerances.) Metric threads suck, metric teeth suck, the units suck, the entire system sucks. It's garbage.

    And that's all I'm going to say about it.


    Good for Tad! The man's obviously got taste and skill
    I'm curious as to what you dislike about metric.

    I've worked with both including a couple years of lab research and I've found metric much easier to use. I find it easier for designing, easier for making, easier for conversions, and the scientific community uses it to design and build machines with tolerances of 0.000001mm. I teach, and due to students being more familiar with imperial units I let them go that route by default. Most of them switch over pretty quick when they realize how frequently they have to grab a calculator.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    "I routinely worked to .0002" tolerances."
    So you already work in decimals.

    "less accurate" - Just no. You may be less accurate when working in metric, but don't blame the system.

    I don't know if my teeth are imperial or metric - probably transitional

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Iím braced for the onslaught... xx

    Iíd like to thank everyone for their thoughts,opinions and wisdom. I have enough information now to declare that I, personally, will use the designers plans which are in metric.
    Question to self, ďWhy waste an opportunity to learn?Ē

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