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Thread: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

  1. #1
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    Default Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    So one of my cousins built a little boat, actually 2 of them, he used the sphensons plans for the mustang and a duck boat. This has kind of started a build off among the cousins with some conversations about what is the best to build and why leading to some interesting discussions and friendly, well friendly to us anyway, arguments about what is better. I am not really part of the build off, I just can't seem to stabilize life kids and work enough too, but certainly interested enough to be a part of the discussions and help out when available I got into my own research and found 2 plans that stand out to me. The St Pierre Dory shown on Nexus boats http://www.nexusmarine.com/st_pierre.html and the Tolman Skiff.
    Both are described as incredibly sea worthy and easy to build with the Tolman from Alaska and the St. Pierre closer to home, my home in PEI and Nova Scotia, Newfoundland. Yet many experienced seamen don't agree that the Dory is a good seaworthy boat so my question is; Is the St. Pierre just not as good as nexus says unless you are a Newfie born and raised in the North Atlantic and know more about living at sea than living on land or has it been modified and no longer a traditional dory meaning that old school dory rules need not apply?
    My next question is if I were looking for something that; had a cabin for family fun and cruising 4-6 people, can handle enpough sea to get off shore for some recreational fishing, small enough to trailer to inland waters for... fishing, yet sea worthy enough where if the weather turns fast and we are never seen again it isn't because the hull couldn't take it (basically as safe and as seaworthy as we can get for a novice looking to learn). Which would be the better option?
    Third question, would a baby lobster boat (22-26ft) be better or is it generally the same thing; flat bottom high keel work boat?
    I hope that is clear and sensible.

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    You'll need to be a bit more specific when you ask about plans. Can you give us a link to the "baby lobster boat", for example? The St. Pierre Dory shows one double berth -- surely all 6 of you won't sleep together? <-- joke

    You say cruising for 4-6 people but small enough to trailer to inland lakes, but also "seaworthy" -- these are fairly incompatible requirements. The largest Tolman might work for four people, not sure what sort of interior options the plans provide, but you'd need a big diesel pickup to tow it.

    The Glacier Boat's 28' Great Alaskan would probably work for your needs if you could add some quarterberths under the cockpit seats that are accessed from the cabin. I can't find any pictures of the Great Alaskan layout online but I'm sure they're included in the study plans.
    http://65.110.86.132/plans/dixon/ga/index.htm
    Last edited by Thorne; 12-17-2018 at 11:57 AM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    You might look at the 26' Bartender. I'm not srue what the overnight capacity is, but they're pretty rugged,

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Is the St. Pierre just not as good as nexus says unless you are a Newfie born and raised in the North Atlantic and know more about living at sea than living on land or has it been modified and no longer a traditional dory meaning that old school dory rules need not apply?
    Dory is a displacement boat ( "slow" ) meant for oars or small motor or sails. The Tolman skiff is a planing boat( "fast'') meant for larger motors, though it can be operated at slow speed if you desire.

    A dory is seaworthy, but know that the crew is an essential part of any boat's seaworthiness. An inexperienced crew in a," great," boat may be in more peril than an experienced crew in a, " lesser," boat. Dories get their reputation, largely, from having been used in offshore fisheries in the Atlantic, where they were manned by expert seamen/ fishermen.

    I've oversimplified these responses, in the name of brevity.

    Good Luck!

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    baby Lobster boat wasn't plans just a small 22' lobster boat hull for sale I thought maybe if I buy it and build a small pilot house cabin on it... The reason why I mentioned it is because it looks much like a skiff, are lobster boats just skiffs geared for running traps or are there subtle design difference.
    As for cruising 4-6 is more like seating for 6 (4 adults and 2 kids) there would never be 6 adults on it over night; a day on the water at best on a really nice calm day. 99.999% of the time it would be 3 adults or 2 adults and 2 children. I understand, well now I do, that "cruising" generally means room to sleep; scratch that! The use is getting around the island, maybe swim off it/beach camp, and get far enough off shore to do some ocean fishing but small enough to trailer to inland waters. A gas stove to heat some water for tea or coffee would be more important than actual sleeping berths, to me anyway.
    Towing/weight is important, that is why I was looking at the Dory where it was only 2700# I figured a drivers seat, nav seat, 2 seats facing back. I suppose that is too cramped for 6 just hanging out but 3 people fishing, or 4 beach camping/island exploring I think should be fine. As long as the hull is sea worthy enough to be safe for me to learn on. I like the Skiffs as well but I don't plan on owning a large diesel truck; more like 1/2 or 1/4 ton truck or SUV (by SUV I mean a solid truck based one like a 4runner or Xterra not a Forester ). My uncle towed his 18ft lobster like fiberglass boat with an old dodge minvan so I figured these could be towed by a 1/2 ton; then again my uncle is a little fast and loose with the rules and "suggested load capacities" so...
    I am likely not going to build anything but I might buy and modify/equip for my use so I would still be interested in knowing what type/style/design might be the better fit.
    The layout for the Great Alaskan is hidding in the slide show at Glacier Boats of Alaska (http://www.glacierboats.com/).

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Kevin's hit the nub. I'm a sailor so naturally I'm comfortable with the slow and economical pace of the St. Pierre. Six knots is a wonderful speed in part because you can to time and distance calculations easily in your head. In a hard chance at sea, I'd rather be in the St. Pierre, but the Tolman's speed could allow you to run in and avoid the storm altogether.

    Importantly, the St. Pierre is more beautiful and atmospheric.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Veinot View Post
    baby Lobster boat wasn't plans just a small 22' lobster boat hull for sale I thought maybe if I buy it and build a small pilot house cabin on it... The reason why I mentioned it is because it looks much like a skiff, are lobster boats just skiffs geared for running traps or are there subtle design difference.
    As for cruising 4-6 is more like seating for 6 (4 adults and 2 kids) there would never be 6 adults on it over night; a day on the water at best on a really nice calm day. 99.999% of the time it would be 3 adults or 2 adults and 2 children. I understand, well now I do, that "cruising" generally means room to sleep; scratch that! The use is getting around the island, maybe swim off it/beach camp, and get far enough off shore to do some ocean fishing but small enough to trailer to inland waters. A gas stove to heat some water for tea or coffee would be more important than actual sleeping berths, to me anyway.
    Towing/weight is important, that is why I was looking at the Dory where it was only 2700# I figured a drivers seat, nav seat, 2 seats facing back. I suppose that is too cramped for 6 just hanging out but 3 people fishing, or 4 beach camping/island exploring I think should be fine. As long as the hull is sea worthy enough to be safe for me to learn on. I like the Skiffs as well but I don't plan on owning a large diesel truck; more like 1/2 or 1/4 ton truck or SUV (by SUV I mean a solid truck based one like a 4runner or Xterra not a Forester ). My uncle towed his 18ft lobster like fiberglass boat with an old dodge minvan so I figured these could be towed by a 1/2 ton; then again my uncle is a little fast and loose with the rules and "suggested load capacities" so...
    I am likely not going to build anything but I might buy and modify/equip for my use so I would still be interested in knowing what type/style/design might be the better fit.
    The layout for the Great Alaskan is hidding in the slide show at Glacier Boats of Alaska (http://www.glacierboats.com/).
    OK now your requirements have changed into something a bit more reasonable -- 2-3 adults and possibly 2 children, towable by a 1/2 ton pickup or mid-sized SUV. Those vehicles will tow up to 5,000lbs, the new 1/2 ton pickups in diesel up to 10,000 lbs. If you go with the 5,000 lb limit you'll see what designs may work.

    Adding a cabin to an existing lobster boat is a Bad Idea in most cases -- makes an existing design less seaworthy and top heavy.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Dory is a displacement boat ( "slow" ) meant for oars or small motor or sails. The Tolman skiff is a planing boat( "fast'') meant for larger motors, though it can be operated at slow speed if you desire.

    A dory is seaworthy, but know that the crew is an essential part of any boat's seaworthiness. An inexperienced crew in a," great," boat may be in more peril than an experienced crew in a, " lesser," boat. Dories get their reputation, largely, from having been used in offshore fisheries in the Atlantic, where they were manned by expert seamen/ fishermen.

    I've oversimplified these responses, in the name of brevity.

    Good Luck!

    Kevin
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Kevin's hit the nub. I'm a sailor so naturally I'm comfortable with the slow and economical pace of the St. Pierre. Six knots is a wonderful speed in part because you can to time and distance calculations easily in your head. In a hard chance at sea, I'd rather be in the St. Pierre, but the Tolman's speed could allow you to run in and avoid the storm altogether.

    Importantly, the St. Pierre is more beautiful and atmospheric.
    Here is where the confusion for me really sets in; on the nexus forum when they talk about the St. Pierre design they say it is meant to travel at displacement and semi-displacement speeds from 6-14 knots and are economical. So did they do something to the design to allow act as a displacement/semi-displacement boat thus making it similar to a dory but not quite or is it an unintended effect of the design when you go from Human or Sail power to Horsepower?

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    ^ 14 knots seems optimistically fast, considering what I know about dories. ( I profess only general knowledge, not expertise). If I were interested in the design, that statement would prompt me to contact the designer to ask about the feature.

    Boat types may be likened to cheese varieties: there is bleu, Swiss, American, caemembert, brie, etc. All cheeses; all different. Dories come in at least as many flavors.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    OK now your requirements have changed into something a bit more reasonable -- 2-3 adults and possibly 2 children, towable by a 1/2 ton pickup or mid-sized SUV. Those vehicles will tow up to 5,000lbs, the new 1/2 ton pickups in diesel up to 10,000 lbs. If you go with the 5,000 lb limit you'll see what designs may work.

    Adding a cabin to an existing lobster boat is a Bad Idea in most cases -- makes an existing design less seaworthy and top heavy.
    Yeah, I can see how that would be the case; I was only thinking of rebuilding what would have been there originally; I certainly don't think I know enough to turn a lobster boat into a house boat lol. Maybe install some extra seating and a light removable awning/shade since I wouldn't be running traps. Even that I would ask someone who knows either around town or online here before doing something potentially dangerous.

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    ^ 14 knots seems optimistically fast, considering what I know about dories. ( I profess only general knowledge, not expertise). If I were interested in the design, that statement would prompt me to contact the designer to ask about the feature.

    Boat types may be likened to cheese varieties: there is bleu, Swiss, American, caemembert, brie, etc. All cheeses; all different. Dories come in at least as many flavors.

    Kevin
    I certainly see what you mean; even when you narrow it down to kayaks and canoes it took me forever to find the right design for my uses. Adding a motor and some friends makes things more boggling but I appreciate the help in getting me sort of understanding the ins and outs of this.

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Right in your neighborhood and cheap at twice the price.

    https://www.damariscottariver.org/gr...t-great-cause/


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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    The Glen-L "Lucky Pierre" (https://www.boatdesigns.com/26-Lucky.../products/539/) claims 6kt - 10kt. As they point out, this depends on weight, power, and prop. One person in an otherwise light boat might get there in semi-displacement mode. Add a friend with a cooler and you're down to six knots at best. The dory hull does not have the shape or bearings to get up on a plane.

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    So it sounds to me that either will do but I should look for something like the Bartender or the Alaskan Skiff. I was trying to find hull weights for such a rig and found this link http://65.110.86.132/plans/dixon/ga/index.htm showing larger pictures of the profile and layout.

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Almost all the websites for boat plans list the displacement of each design even without buying the test plans. Add more weight for standard things like water, fuel, personal gear, motors, batteries, etc.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    Right in your neighborhood and cheap at twice the price.

    https://www.damariscottariver.org/gr...t-great-cause/

    They are pretty I give them that...

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Are you planning to cruise about the Northumberland Strait? My impression is that boating there (only been across that area once) is most felicitous.

    If you're not in a big hurry, want to build your own, and care for economy of construction and operation, it would be hard to beat the St. Pierre. The expense and heft of the Bartender - a wonderful boat - is really more suited for habitual use of breaking inlets and such.

    The power dory is not fast enough to charge along on the backside of a wave but so what? I took a St Pierre type up Buzzards Bay with the afternoon southwesterly sending steep chop - about 4' - under our stern. As an overtaking wave picked up the stern, the boat's rocker helped her gripe less than another boat at displacement speed might experience and we trundled along with no fear of broaching. A broader stern displacement boat tends to be a little touchier in those conditions.

    As Melanie put it, ". . . don't go too fast but . . . go pretty far". And if you power with a small (20HP or under) diesel you'll likely sip less than one fifth per hour.

    An aside, consider outboard rudder and tiller steering. It's really quite nice to have your eyes on you whole boat and crew without twisting about too much. Not to mention simple, cheap, reliable.

    G'luck

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    I think the Saint Pierre Dory is a pretty good choice if getting out on the water is the main thing....6 to maximum 8 knots...camp accommodations for 2. In order to make the boat effectively faster the bottom needs to be wider, particularly at the transom. You might put a horizontal foil (I have seen these but do not know what people call it) to provide the lift to permit plaining. I'd consider that on an existing boat, but on a new build I cannot see the point.
    Anyway the wider, longer flat bottom becomes a problem in anything you might call a seaway. Slapping / pounding. I once had a 27 ft RHIB with a 12" wide flat section along the keel. That 12" shook my teeth on nearly any excuse of a wave, whether 2" or 2'. We always rocked back and forth sideways (with the helm) to minimize the slapping when at speed.
    I think I'd consider a Bartender as my choice. Going faster in a good proven boat is a way of getting out of trouble. It allows you to go further for your day of fishing and get back with wife and kids not bored out of their tree....(that is one of the dangers you might encounter with a slower boat).

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    I think the Saint Pierre Dory is a pretty good choice if getting out on the water is the main thing....6 to maximum 8 knots...camp accommodations for 2. In order to make the boat effectively faster the bottom needs to be wider, particularly at the transom. You might put a horizontal foil (I have seen these but do not know what people call it) to provide the lift to permit plaining. I'd consider that on an existing boat, but on a new build I cannot see the point.
    Anyway the wider, longer flat bottom becomes a problem in anything you might call a seaway. Slapping / pounding. I once had a 27 ft RHIB with a 12" wide flat section along the keel. That 12" shook my teeth on nearly any excuse of a wave, whether 2" or 2'. We always rocked back and forth sideways (with the helm) to minimize the slapping when at speed.
    I think I'd consider a Bartender as my choice. Going faster in a good proven boat is a way of getting out of trouble. It allows you to go further for your day of fishing and get back with wife and kids not bored out of their tree....(that is one of the dangers you might encounter with a slower boat).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Are you planning to cruise about the Northumberland Strait? My impression is that boating there (only been across that area once) is most felicitous.

    If you're not in a big hurry, want to build your own, and care for economy of construction and operation, it would be hard to beat the St. Pierre. The expense and heft of the Bartender - a wonderful boat - is really more suited for habitual use of breaking inlets and such.

    The power dory is not fast enough to charge along on the backside of a wave but so what? I took a St Pierre type up Buzzards Bay with the afternoon southwesterly sending steep chop - about 4' - under our stern. As an overtaking wave picked up the stern, the boat's rocker helped her gripe less than another boat at displacement speed might experience and we trundled along with no fear of broaching. A broader stern displacement boat tends to be a little touchier in those conditions.

    As Melanie put it, ". . . don't go too fast but . . . go pretty far". And if you power with a small (20HP or under) diesel you'll likely sip less than one fifth per hour.

    An aside, consider outboard rudder and tiller steering. It's really quite nice to have your eyes on you whole boat and crew without twisting about too much. Not to mention simple, cheap, reliable.

    G'luck
    Not experienced enough to know if I want to go fast or tugg along. I am sure if fishing I will either be trolling or floating along. I would like to visit places like magdolin islands or anticosti but I don't know if or when I will be ready for that (in my own boat anyway). Fishing in the bay of fundy, Ormoncto and Saint John river annapolis basin, minas basin, Charlottetown Harbour (North, West and Hillsborough rivers and where they meet in the Charlottetown Harbour area), Around the cost of PEI, day tripping kind of stuff. All places where I seen good size power boats zipping around.
    What I do know is that canoes and open boats are uncomfortable, to me anyway, for fishing. They are great for exploring lakes and wilderness rivers but I find, in a canoe, I get cramped and want to move a bit without freaking out other passengers, or I want to get out and walk around but I don't want to bother my buddy who is actually catching fish lol. It isn't so bad when we have our own boats like kayaks but those expeditions usually end up 2 people share a ride in and back but are mostly solo through the day, we just kinda drift apart excuse the punn. Also I don't want to be out in open water in a canoe or kayak, especially when I hook up with a stripped bass, or a small shark which is known to happen... I think my best trip was in the Bay of Fundy in a 14' fiberglass boat, stereotypical fishing boat high front low back bench seats and an outboard. The only issue was it was a 14' boat with 5 of us didn't leave much room for casting.
    I am at the point where sitting in a small open boat waiting for a bite for 6 to 18 hours is just not fun. I want to be in something stable that can fit 2 or three comfortably so we can just let our lines sit in the boat while we talk, laugh, maybe have a cooler with chemically appropriate goodies in it or what not. I like the idea of a little pilot house where I can get out of the sun, or light rain, if I want, or beaching and exploring a inlet or island with the kids, maybe camp out on a government island, seal or whale watch. Watching the Annapolis Royal Natal Day fireworks with family from the water would be a plus too. When I joined the forum my idea was a sailboat but when I think of the things I want to do, the people I want to do it with, and the distances between us a sailboat doesn't seem to fit. The dory did speak to me because it is described as "easy to build" and "very sea worthy" and "economical". I am by no means a master craftsman, and I don't think realistically me building one will happen. I see lots of Dorals and Bayliners for sale in the under 5000$ range but not too many experienced boaters suggest them for anything outside of protected waters. The lobster boat came to mind because there is at least 2 dozen in the marina with picnic tables fastened to their decks, and BBQ's mounted to their gunwales and I think, "If I could find a small one that would work" ha! there is even one here that has a plastic slide mounted to the pilot house directed off the side and into the water. Have not seen anyone brave enough to use it yet though lol.
    If a dory fits I know there are some around for sale, I see them on drives and online every now and then.
    Last edited by Veinot; 12-17-2018 at 09:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Your first paragraph is pretty much as I suspected...mostly partially sheltered waters with some near coastal waters as well. I get the apparent limitations of small open boats, particularly when there are several people in the group. Pretty much everybody needs to be more or less competent in their own boat, and you have to be more weather wary.
    The part of considering crossings to the Iles de la Madeleine, some ~60 nm of open water from East Point, or about 200 nm to shelter on Anticosti Island...both really interesting places to go....might as well include the North Shore, between Mingan and Red Bay.....way cool cruising grounds. these journeys are major crossings under difficult and very changeable weather. Lots of real fog in the summer and no shortage of small gales....force 7 - 8 even in the summer. The boats described here I am not sure are right for that job unless you really work on weather windows. The boats will make it but whether the crew will be intact on arrival is another thing.

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    Your first paragraph is pretty much as I suspected...mostly partially sheltered waters with some near coastal waters as well. I get the apparent limitations of small open boats, particularly when there are several people in the group. Pretty much everybody needs to be more or less competent in their own boat, and you have to be more weather wary.
    The part of considering crossings to the Iles de la Madeleine, some ~60 nm of open water from East Point, or about 200 nm to shelter on Anticosti Island...both really interesting places to go....might as well include the North Shore, between Mingan and Red Bay.....way cool cruising grounds. these journeys are major crossings under difficult and very changeable weather. Lots of real fog in the summer and no shortage of small gales....force 7 - 8 even in the summer. The boats described here I am not sure are right for that job unless you really work on weather windows. The boats will make it but whether the crew will be intact on arrival is another thing.
    Here is a dumb question, what exactly constitutes as open water? The Bay of Fundy? crossing the Northumberland to NB or NS? What if I was to harbour hop up the coast of NB and QC until I got to the St Lawrence river then cross to Anticosti? Either way I wouldn't want to do any of these until my family is older and more experienced. Maybe when my youngest gets her navigators license she will go with me (she is a young aspiring sea cadet looking to join the Navy and be a animal vet...) and it sounds like maybe the dory would work for me? I do really like the look and even though the pilot house/cab is really low; here is another one I found http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_newf.php; I like this one because it is under 8.5ft wide. Here is a question, how tender is tender for a dory of this size? Would my body weight (200lbs) be enough on one side to make it feel tippy or is it's tenderness more of how it responds to waves and being underway?

    I suppose this thread has about answered my questions perhaps I should close it before my ignorance becomes to glaring...

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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Veinot View Post
    Here is a dumb question, what exactly constitutes as open water?

    I suppose this thread has about answered my questions perhaps I should close it before my ignorance becomes to glaring...
    Keep at it until you learn and understand more about the nature of boats and how they do what they do. There are no dumb questions. Read. Ask questions. You will learn and others reading this thread, the lurkers (not that there is anything wrong with lurking) will learn a bit more as well. There are lots of books on the subject, dig in. Keep asking. The more you know, the happier you will be with whichever design you choose.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Questions and discussion are the cure for ignorance. And no matter how many years one has been involved with boats, there remains an infinite domain of stuff one does not yet know.

    "Open water" is a poetic and elastic term. Basically, it's any body of water large enough that wind generated waves have enough fetch to get at least annoying, maybe dangerous. A body of open water can get narrow at it's head but counts as open to its end. Pretty much any salt water that's not an enclosed harbor or estuary can be considered open water. Same with major lakes.

    No one boat does all things. You'll quite possibly find that different boats are suitable for different stages of your nautical evolution. Look around at the boats actually in use in places you'll be sailing. You'll see that most are not boats of ultimate seaworthiness. Most people prefer to sit out bad weather. And most weather is predictable. Even in areas where pop-up thunderstorms happen, you can know their probability and plan your outing with convenient shelter at hand. Start cautious and get smart as you go along.

    The Spira site as I opened it flitted from boat to boat. I could not tell if you're looking at what's really a drift boat - looks doryish but miserable to row, wonderful in big fast water. Or maybe one of the dory-skiffs.

    "Stability" is an iffy word. Any professionally designed boat that is meant to have a motor (not a canoe with a motor hung over the side) with a beam over 6' is likely to be stabile enough to walk about in or to lean over the gunnel to net a fish. All of the different Spira dories look safe and stabile.

    G'luck

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Paulden, AZ, USA
    Posts
    96

    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    You should pick up a copy of John Gardner's The Dory Book, he has a couple of St.Pierre Dory's, It was money well spent for Johns book.........$.02
    It also covers basic construction very well I'm in the planing stages of a St. Pierre at this time, we're just finishing our new shop..............

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Charlottetown, PE, Canada
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    22

    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    I was looking at the Newfie specifically 27ft. http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_newf.php looks about the same as the nexus one only a little narrower (8'4" as oppose to 8' 9"). Most of what I see is Bayliner type power boats or small very fast motor boats or sailboats in the immediate Charlottetown harbour and mostly lobster/fishing boats in the outer communities. Same for the Bay of Fundy, general purpose work/fishing boats.
    The reason why I like the Dory; Design comes from this area so it should be suitable for local waters, low power economical cruising potential for adding an electric motor for trolling, I think they look good the high bow look up my ally and from my kayak experience the high bow will help cut waves and help prevent waves from coming over the top, looks fairly easy to build and maintain/store.
    The reasons why I like the skiff is the open back, looks to have more room, look good but not as good, newer design might be better/more stable/more efficient? maybe?, looks stereotypical of the work boats I see around well above the water line anyway...
    I wouldn't try my luck knowing bad weather was on the way or questionable sea conditions were a possibility but I would go out in those conditions with someone who has experience that I trust.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
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    46,111

    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    I like that Newfie. It would be most tempting to get a "high thrust" outboard, usually done by some mix of gearing down for a bigger more deeply pitched prop. Outboard wells in a dory are a major pain. Hope that Spira has a good plan for that. Alternatively, a small diesel inboard invites a nice skeg and outboard rudder.

    G'luck

  27. #27
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Charlottetown, PE, Canada
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    22

    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Yeah, the outboard well looks like it will take up valuable deck space; if it could be hung off the back using a bracket then I could do as previously suggested and sit in the back and run the boat. With the back so narrow though I don' think that would work. Inboard would be a good option too I suppose I easily found the book on Amazon for about 53$ hard copy 58$ paper back (I know odd the hard cover is less). I can probably add that to my collection before the new year. It looks like the Spira plans cover the well and have a narrow version for trailering, it is probably nearly identical to the newfi; I also discovered it has a head, bonus! Although I will likely make it a closet with a bucket.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
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    Hyannis, MA, USA
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    46,111

    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    I'd not try to hang an outboard on that transom. Even a small OB is unneeded weight that far back and working on the motor over that transom is a horror.

    Depending on exactly where the OB goes, I'd be tempted to put a deck over the well right back to the transom. Nice place to hang out.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Charlottetown, PE, Canada
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    22

    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    I'd not try to hang an outboard on that transom. Even a small OB is unneeded weight that far back and working on the motor over that transom is a horror.

    Depending on exactly where the OB goes, I'd be tempted to put a deck over the well right back to the transom. Nice place to hang out.
    I suspected that there was a reason for a well...

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    BC Coast
    Posts
    3,846

    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Veinot View Post
    Here is a dumb question, what exactly constitutes as open water? The Bay of Fundy? crossing the Northumberland to NB or NS? What if I was to harbour hop up the coast of NB and QC until I got to the St Lawrence river then cross to Anticosti? Either way I wouldn't want to do any of these until my family is older and more experienced. Maybe when my youngest gets her navigators license she will go with me (she is a young aspiring sea cadet looking to join the Navy and be a animal vet...) and it sounds like maybe the dory would work for me? I do really like the look and even though the pilot house/cab is really low; here is another one I found http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_newf.php; I like this one because it is under 8.5ft wide. Here is a question, how tender is tender for a dory of this size? Would my body weight (200lbs) be enough on one side to make it feel tippy or is it's tenderness more of how it responds to waves and being underway?

    I suppose this thread has about answered my questions perhaps I should close it before my ignorance becomes to glaring...
    Open Water is as Ian says a slightly elastic term. I'd say it speaks to the qualities of the boat as much as geography. Your 8 knot boat crossing 60nm of open water will take about 8 hours, 12 knots ~5 hours...and so it goes. The longer you are on passage the longer you are exposed to potential changes in weather. For Near Coastal commercial boats, it is usually defined as less than 25 nm offshore and within 100 nm of shelter. A personal water craft (jet-ski) might cross to Iles de la Medeleine from PEI in 2 hours on a good day. On the other hand I have seen waves build to ~4' high in a fetch of about 4 nm when the wind was blowing <60 knots. I have kayaked along the north shore of Quebec, from Mingan eastwards. We found about 1 day in 4 (summer) was weather-bound. Certainly the Gulf is Open Water in the context of any small vessel, and care should always be exercised when venturing much more than 1 hour away from and shelter. Keeping a weather eye out is part of the game. Coasting and gunkholing around the St Lawrence Gulf and Estuary is certainly doable
    The boats currently under consideration here are stable enough for these purposes. You will be still standing on the bottom, with a side deck between you and the sea, I think you will feel safe.
    I like and have used a bit one of the many versions of the St. Pierre Dory. These boats generally travel at modest speeds, but are pretty able, to the point that it is often the crew that will call it quits before the boat is in serious danger. I'd probably install either an inboard 20 - 40 hp or an outboard in a well of similar size.
    A wider flat bottom boat, or nearly flat bottom boat would not be my choice, for the waters you are describing. I lot of people will be happy enough most of the time with a skiff style boat. There is a reason though that offshore sport fishing boats are nearly all a deep V type. I still like the Bartender type. Looking at the Bartender site I like the Cruising Bartender 26 or in a smaller version Tad Roberts 22 Timber Coast.... https://bartenderboats.com/ I tend to think having some good speed is a real advantage.

  31. #31
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    Apr 1999
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    Hyannis, MA, USA
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    46,111

    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    There is no question that with the invention of the Deep V hull Ray Hunt made his genius bones. (And that was just one thing he did.) The deep V allows a boat to plane over waves. For 'deep sea' fishing where the charter party really foots the fuel bill or the owner's just plain rich, the deep V lets you roar off to the grounds at twenty or thirty knots pretty much regardless of weather. These boats are also powerful enough to ride the back of a wave quite safely in through a breaking inlet. Good basis for rescue and law enforcement boats as well. From those good uses the shape spread to Bayliners and such.

    And here we are, polluting for pleasure as we spew hydrocarbons to essentially push water backwards.

    I don't see in the OP brief any reason for the expense of building, equipping, and fueling a wonderful boat like a Bartender when the dory will run maybe 10% or so overall lifetime cost.

    Boats are about dreaming. Dream six knots.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Charlottetown, PE, Canada
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    22

    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    What is the purpose of a shallow V hull? Some dory plans include V entry and shallow V as either a modification to a dory plan or as a separate style dory. Is it an attempt to add something to the otherwise flat bottom?

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Gardiner, Maine
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    There is only 1 mention of the Tolman Alaskan Skiff. Yes, professionally and amateurly built in 600 hours; or, in my case 4 years while I was still working. The Standards are 18-20' long. Widebody.
    Probably, in every state of the union...not just Alaska.
    There is the www.TolmanAlaskanSkiff forum. The TAS's builders forum. Many ideas can be filled from this forum.
    Good luck. Just get on the water in any kind of boat. Have fun.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Gardiner, Maine
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    Sorry, Widebody from 21+. Then Jumbo 24+. The Widebody has a flat area at chine for extra lift and is wider than Standard. Jumbo again has the flat area at China for the lifting aspect and is still wider than the Widebody.

    The 2 Standards does not have the flat area at China but do have a lifting straight that runs from his to stern.
    THave fun on water.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,270

    Default Re: Can I get some clarification please; Skiff or Dory?

    What is the purpose of a shallow V hull?
    It's mostly about comfort. The more V, the less the boat will pound. Of course, slowing down reduces pounding considerably, too. The true dory types have very narrow bottoms, which in itself will make the boat ride more comfortably than a skiff type that has a much wider flat bottom.
    -Dave

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