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Thread: Carry on Chippie

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    Default Carry on Chippie

    In my last post I missed out grain. I consider this an important element in bending and was seeking your thoughts on this or any of the Posters.
    Personally I would have selected the face grain to run along the widest width.

    navydog.

    Chippie,Most lumber isn't cut with either vertical grain of flat sawn. In actuality grain orientation isn't a significant factor in bending most species.

    Chippy.
    Erroneous I am afraid

    From<http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...atboat/page151>


    Well someone should inform this chap for starters.

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E&&FORM=VRDGAR

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    ^ The issue with bows is that you need the sapwood, which is elastic on the outside of the curve, and the heartwood, strong in compression on the inside. So you have no other choice about grain orientation.



    Now steam bending ribs might be a different issue.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    A bow is functionally different than a static piece of a boat. Wooden bows are best made from a few specific species.

    We had this discussion a while back concerning grain and bending. Only species with distinctive alternating hard and soft rings tend to bend better when saw flat. There is no advantage in grain orientation in epecies with more even grain structures.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    We had this discussion a while back concerning grain and bending. Only species with distinctive alternating hard and soft rings tend to bend better when saw flat. There is no advantage in grain orientation in epecies with more even grain structures.
    My books of reference refer to British boat building, the woods in order of preference are Canadian rock elm (No longer available)
    Young growth English oak
    Ash (not durable in fresh water but otherwise excellent)
    Douglas fir got one mention and I have rebuilt a boat that was timbered out in larch.
    The timbers were sawn from board, thicknessed to the siding and ripped and planed to the thinner dimension, so as the board was consumed they will have transited from flat grain to nearly quarter sawn.
    I have a reference to the Deal Galleys being timbered with ash, bought ready steam bent from Faversham north Kent, where they were shaped from straight grown ash saplings.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post




    So we have moved from grain orientation not mattering, to an example that does


    Bowyers rarely build boats.
    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    A bow is functionally different than a static piece of a boat. Wooden bows are best made from a few specific species.

    We had this discussion a while back concerning grain and bending. Only species with distinctive alternating hard and soft rings tend to bend better when saw flat. There is no advantage in grain orientation in species with more even grain structures.

    So we are now looking at the manner it has been sawn to see which way the grain is orientated. Suddenly the direction of the grain matters.







    How would you apply this piece to the top strake? (As in Jim's case)

    Quarter to plank or Long?


    Depends on how tight the bend. Steamed timber in a tight bilged boat or a plank around the topsides of the hull?
    If a tight bend the view is it depends on the degree of difference between winter and summer growth. If there is little difference, then there is little difference. If it is a slack bend, there is little difference.

    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    A bow is functionally different than a static piece of a boat. Wooden bows are best made from a few specific species.

    We had this discussion a while back concerning grain and bending. Only species with distinctive alternating hard and soft rings tend to bend better when saw flat. There is no advantage in grain orientation in epecies with more even grain structures.
    It's true bows are generally made from hardwoods, though some softwoods like yew etc can be used. cedar and Juniper need backing.
    There is actually a remarkable large species of woods that bows can be made out of.
    Yew uses the sap wood and you can use it on maple, elm, hickory,ash but I think with these hardwoods it's mostly because the sapwood is pretty similar to the heartwood.
    With many hardwoods you actually want to remove the sapwood. (like locust , osage etc.)
    I'm a bowyer!!

    My brother and I bent several black locust ribs into a boat, based upon thinking as a bowyer we milled them flat sawn with little to no runout.

    Having also trained as a luthier...
    Guitar sides , etc on the other hand are always quarter or rift sawn and hardwood and are bent into quite dramtic curves
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 12-15-2018 at 07:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxophilite View Post
    It's true bows are generally made from hardwoods, though some softwoods like yew etc can be used. cedar and Juniper need backing.
    There is actually a remarkable large species of woods that bows can be made out of.
    Yew uses the sap wood and you can use it on maple, elm, hickory,ash but I think with these hardwoods it's mostly because the sapwood is pretty similar to the heartwood.
    With many hardwoods you actually want to remove the sapwood. (like locust , osage etc.)
    I'm a bowyer!!

    My brother and I bent several black locust ribs into a boat, based upon thinking as a bowyer we milled them flat sawn with little to no runout.

    Having also trained as a luthier...
    Guitar sides , etc on the other hand are always quarter or rift sawn and hardwood and are bent into quite dramtic curves
    Yew may well technically be a softwood, (not deciduous) but it is fine grained and hard like no other pine or fir.

    I think that American bows evolved down a different path than the European bows, using flat staves rather than the more oval shape of the northern European bows. So the different elasticity of the sap to heart wood is more important. Then there are the Asiatic bows that use horn and sinew for its elasticity.
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 12-16-2018 at 05:29 AM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    [QUOTE=Peerie Maa;5756627]


    Depends on how tight the bend. Steamed timber in a tight bilged boat or a plank around the topsides of the hull?
    If a tight bend the view is it depends on the degree of difference between winter and summer growth. If there is little difference, then there is little difference. If it is a slack bend, there is little difference.



    How would you apply this piece to the top strake? (As in Jim's case)

    Quarter to plank or Long?

    If a tight bend
    As in Jim's case is what I asked, you decide how tight.


    That piece of wood with the grain to observe ( To avoid anymore loopholes) let's make it 20 odd feet long.




    "If there is little difference, then there is little difference. If it is a slack bend, there is little difference"

    So I take it there is little difference?

    It's bit early I know but I've decided to approach the drinks cabinet and then sit in the quietness of the bog.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Chippy, please dump the coloured text, and use black like the rest of humanity. I cannot be doing with that green and angry red.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    What's fascinating about bowmaking is that bows were made world-wide, and every region developed a bow suited to the materials available.. It's speculated that the English Yew longbow shape may have developed as a result of getting the maximum number of staves from a given tree. As yew(which I agree is very dense with growth rings like sheets of paper) also makes fine flatbows like the bows of the pacific northwest and elsewhere in the world. On the flip side, Cherokee in the States make Black Cherry bows that are very similar to English yew long bows in design and shape.
    Some societies had very little good natural bow wood so they had to get VERY creative(composite bows(horn sinew etc etc))
    The flatbow design is definitely more forgiving and is also found world-wide, It works well with many hardwoods.
    However with Locust and Osage orange i (Osage also makes fine narrow deep longbows too)
    The sapwood isn't used because it's brittle and almost useless

    I would hazard to speculate that while you can certainly bend wood with the grain orientated either way, especially using heat or steam. For continued and potential extreme flexibility(like a bow) perhaps flat sawn is best . Rift sawn may need steaming and impart more rigidity to the final bend.
    I imagine both would probably work well in a boat building application. For bending certainly far better one or the other rather than no consideration of grain which would cause splits and breakage from runout.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Yew may well technically be a softwood, (not deciduous) but it is fine grained and hard like no other pine or fir.

    I think that American bows evolved down a different path than the European bows, using flat staves rather than the more oval shape of the northern European bows. So the different elasticity of the sap to heart wood is more important. Then there are the Asiatic bows that use horn and sinew for its elasticity.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxophilite View Post
    I would hazard to speculate that while you can certainly bend wood with the grain orientated either way, especially using heat or steam. For continued and potential extreme flexibility(like a bow) perhaps flat sawn is best . Rift sawn may need steaming and impart more rigidity to the final bend.
    I imagine both would probably work well in a boat building application. For bending certainly far better one or the other rather than no consideration of grain which would cause splits and breakage from runout.
    Thing is, unless the frame thickness equals the sideing, which is not common in small craft, only using flat sawn would result in a huge amount of discarded sound timber.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Sure I was never suggesting just using flatsawn lumber
    Somebody brought up grain orientating in bow-making which I found interesting
    Grain orientation is obviously much more critical in bowmaking as it's pretty well the most extreme usage of wood as far as repeatedly working bends go.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxophilite View Post
    Sure I was never suggesting just using flatsawn lumber
    Somebody brought up grain orientating in bow-making which I found interesting
    Grain orientation is obviously much more critical in bowmaking as it's pretty well the most extreme usage of wood as far as repeatedly working bends go.
    Exactly the point. The engineering of a rubrail has no similarity to the requirements for a bow.
    Last edited by navydog; 12-17-2018 at 09:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Chippy, please dump the coloured text, and use black like the rest of humanity. I cannot be doing with that green and angry red.
    I know you are familiar with Jim's Catboat thread and search the Web for answers to our dilemma's for which I am grateful.

    However as I cannot visualise what on earth you are presenting to us and I ask again which side of that piece of timber would you present to the top strake and why? Simples.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Exactly the point. The engineering of a rubrail has no similarity to the requirements wood for a bow.
    Well the both have to bend so there is a similarity there surely.

    I ask you the same question I present to Nick using the information that Nick gives above if possible, and then explain it to the Forum please

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    How is the curve (sheer) in that top strake arrived at may help you in your deliberations.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie


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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    I know you are familiar with Jim's Catboat thread and search the Web for answers to our dilemma's for which I am grateful.

    However as I cannot visualise what on earth you are presenting to us and I ask again which side of that piece of timber would you present to the top strake and why? Simples.
    For the rubbing strake? Either, it does not make much difference with those fairly gentle bends. Would you be that conserned selecting timber for the gunwale on a coble?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    For the rubbing strake? Either, it does not make much difference with those fairly gentle bends. Would you be that conserned selecting timber for the gunwale on a coble?
    Obviously for the for Jim's rubbing strake.

    A coble would present no problem, neither does the rubbing strip, but there is an easy approach in both cases.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    As you choose to ignore my request I decline the offer.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    Obviously for the for Jim's rubbing strake.

    A coble would present no problem, neither does the rubbing strip, but there is an easy approach in both cases.
    So as the bend round a cobles bow is not a problem, why would there be a problem around a cat boat? The cobles gunwale may actually be wider when you consider the angle of the tumble home.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    You must have missed @17.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    How is the curve (sheer) in that top strake arrived at may help you in your deliberations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    You must have missed @17.
    Cant see what that is getting at. Both forms bend in both directions, breadth and sheer, and both have varying amounts of tumble home. It is just in different places along the length.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    I think this belongs on the woodenbow forum

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    I think this belongs on the woodenbow forum
    I think a it more apt on the woodenknow forum.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So as the bend round a cobles bow is not a problem, why would there be a problem around a cat boat? The cobles gunwale may actually be wider when you consider the angle of the tumble home.
    I don't think I mentioned a problem.

    The coble is an extreme example of changing bevels, but succumbs to the same method. The Gunnel is wider but that has other reasons too.
    Last edited by Chippie; 12-17-2018 at 10:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Thing is, unless the frame thickness equals the sideing, which is not common in small craft, only using flat sawn would result in a huge amount of discarded sound timber.
    Sorry but I cannot understand what you are saying Nick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Cant see what that is getting at. Both forms bend in both directions, breadth and sheer and both have varying amounts of tumble home. It is just in different places along the length.
    I don't think they do.
    You are unable to bed wood in two directions in most cases it is difficult to bend in one?
    Could you enlarge on that Nick.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxophilite View Post
    What's fascinating about bowmaking is that bows were made world-wide, and every region developed a bow suited to the materials available.. It's speculated that the English Yew longbow shape may have developed as a result of getting the maximum number of staves from a given tree. As yew(which I agree is very dense with growth rings like sheets of paper) also makes fine flatbows like the bows of the pacific northwest and elsewhere in the world. On the flip side, Cherokee in the States make Black Cherry bows that are very similar to English yew long bows in design and shape.
    Some societies had very little good natural bow wood so they had to get VERY creative(composite bows(horn sinew etc etc))
    The flatbow design is definitely more forgiving and is also found world-wide, It works well with many hardwoods.
    However with Locust and Osage orange i (Osage also makes fine narrow deep longbows too)
    The sapwood isn't used because it's brittle and almost useless

    I would hazard to speculate that while you can certainly bend wood with the grain orientated either way, especially using heat or steam. For continued and potential extreme flexibility(like a bow) perhaps flat sawn is best . Rift sawn may need steaming and impart more rigidity to the final bend.
    I imagine both would probably work well in a boat building application. For bending certainly far better one or the other rather than no consideration of grain which would cause splits and breakage from runout.



    ​So, from some one who has a far better grasp of the problems of bending timber and it's vagrancies without resorting to the Web, agrees that studying the run of grain is advisable navydog.




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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    Sorry but I cannot understand what you are saying Nick.
    Steamed timbers in open boats are usually wider than they are thick.e.g 1" wide, 3/4" thick. So if you rip your timbers out of an inch board, unless it was sawn from the middle of the log at the pith, as you rip strips off the grain will change from quarter sawn through to rift sawn. If you insist on using nothing but quarter sawn, you will discard most of the board.

    I don't think they do.
    You are unable to bed wood in two directions in most cases it is difficult to bend in one?
    Could you enlarge on that Nick.
    The entire rub rail debate started around about here on Jim's Brewer catboat thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    What would the configuration be on an ideal piece of 4x2 to bend around this particular job?
    Now Jim and I contend that there is no problem, no difficulty with what Jim is doing. The debate on this topic of rubrails is a nothingburger.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    (In my last post I missed out
    grain.
    I consider this an important element in bending and was seeking your thoughts on this or any of the Posters.
    Personally I would have selected the face grain to run along the widest width.

    navydog.

    Chippie,Most lumber isn't cut with either vertical grain of flat sawn. In actuality grain orientation isn't a significant factor in bending most species.

    Chippy.
    Erroneous I am afraid
    From<http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...atboat/page151>
    Well someone should inform this chap for starters. QUOTE

    That was my initial Post and came about because Jim asked me to leave his Thread.
    I complied and now I would rather look at this Thread as although instigated by Jim's Post is in no other way connected.

    I find it amusing that you should put yourself on the same level as Jim in PRACTICAL matters Your forte is searching franticly on the Web and trying to be knowledgeable about all things


    QUOTE.

    Now Jim and I contend that there is no problem, no difficulty with what Jim is doing.

    The debate on this topic of rubrails is a nothingburger QUOTE

    Chippie.
    What would the configuration be on an ideal piece of 4x2 to bend around this particular job?


    To which you decline to answer.

    Just to be clear I repeat and I'll say this slowly, I don't think I have criticized Jim to the extent as to say that That anything he is doing is at error on his Catboat Thread.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post

    Just to be clear I repeat and I'll say this slowly, I don't think I have criticized Jim to the extent as to say that That anything he is doing is at error on his Catboat Thread.
    Good, now we can put this part of the debate to bed.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Good, now we can put this part of the debate to bed.
    Are you suggesting I close the Thread?

    Surely not?

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    Are you suggesting I close the Thread?

    Surely not?
    Yes, please do.

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    Default Re: Carry on Chippie

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Good, now we can put this part of the debate to bed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    Are you suggesting I close the Thread?

    Surely not?
    This part = discussion of rub rails.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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