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Thread: melonseed carvel planked?

  1. #1
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    Question melonseed carvel planked?

    Here we are in plain Spring ( a cloudy spring this year ), but it is no unusualy in southern Chile.
    I´m looking for a 16 ft melonseed. The M. Barto plans are beautiful, but I ask if she can be build carvel planking, or the plans are only for strip planked , like a canoe?. The lapstrake ply is not convenient for me in this case, in cold molded I have not experience, and all this epoxy use d´nt like me.
    A carvel planked method would like me over the strip planked.
    I will thank any advice.
    Enrique.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    I have not studied the Barto plans, but I am sure you can build a Melonseed and carvel plank it.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Carvel planked marine plywood, or solid wood? If solid wood you may need to keep it in the water during boating season, or use a lot of soft caulking like BoatLife. Best of luck with your build!
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    The world needs more carvel boats. If you understand the tradeoffs- do it!

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    johngsandusky: The question is if the lapstrake plans are able tu use for carvel planking. Usualy a ply construction use a more thin plank than a solid one. Then I fear how to find the correct thick of the solid plank, and how the planks join with the bow.
    Ply carvel plank cannot give me a smooth surface, may be the strip method is the only way to get a smooth look, with the set of plans of WB. The only I know that have plans from M. Barto.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    J. Madison:
    I dont understand the meaning, I belong to the spanish America. I think the world need more carvel boat because it use a minimum of sintetic products. I was amazed with all the powder of glass fiber and epoxy a strip canoe throw to the environment.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    'Plywood carvel plank' . . . huh?
    I would think a lot of the original melonseeds were carvel plank, but Ben Fuller is the guy that would know.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Modifying Barto's plan to carvel would be a challenge. The framing as designed is very light as glued lap adds a lot of structural strength. I built the 16' as glued lap but never got around to asking Barto why he specified frames. Typically glued lap omits them.
    Steve B
    Sjogin IIIa
    PAYTON 13' Pea Pod

    RIVUS 16' Melonseed


    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    'Plywood carvel plank' . . . huh?
    I would think a lot of the original melonseeds were carvel plank, but Ben Fuller is the guy that would know.
    According to Chapelle, they were built both caravel and lapstrake.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    According to Chapelle, they were built both caravel and lapstrake.
    Thanks.
    Were melonseeds also used frequently for hunting? In which case carvel would be preferred as it might slip through the water more quietly - or am I confusing them with sneakboxes . . . ?

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    According to Chapelle, they were built both caravel and lapstrake.
    In which case I would go for sawn frames and batten seam for this build.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    Thanks.
    Were melonseeds also used frequently for hunting? In which case carvel would be preferred as it might slip through the water more quietly - or am I confusing them with sneakboxes . . . ?
    Yes, they were a more seaworthy type than a sneakbox, but had the same purpose. The chuckling of the water on the laps could have been a problem.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Likewise I am not familiar with those planes, but I don’t know why a mellonseed could’t be built carvel. As mentioned the scantlings would have to be adjusted accordingly.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    One of the things need to get square on melonseeds is that I believe that there are only two sets of historic plans, the 13 footer documented by Chapelle and a 16 footer. I don't recall any in museum collections. These were rare boats, much more common were the sneakbox, much easier to build. The modern popularity is something pretty new, driven by the glass 'seeds and the plans by Barto. Similar boats from the Great South Bay were much more common, are in the Mystic collection and in the Long Island Sound collections. As I recall these were both carvel and lapstrake planked. When you go to carvel planking you need to get your planking to a 1/2" if you want to use bungs. Frames need to be big enough to take screw fastenings. The Great South Bay boats often used natural crook sawn frames as did the sneaks.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    The books by Howard I Chapelle have an original plan that would include frames and plank dimensions. Copies of those plans are available from the Smithsonian Institute.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    One of the things need to get square on melonseeds is that I believe that there are only two sets of historic plans, the 13 footer documented by Chapelle and a 16 footer. I don't recall any in museum collections. These were rare boats, much more common were the sneakbox, much easier to build. The modern popularity is something pretty new, driven by the glass 'seeds and the plans by Barto. Similar boats from the Great South Bay were much more common, are in the Mystic collection and in the Long Island Sound collections. As I recall these were both carvel and lapstrake planked. When you go to carvel planking you need to get your planking to a 1/2" if you want to use bungs. Frames need to be big enough to take screw fastenings. The Great South Bay boats often used natural crook sawn frames as did the sneaks.
    There's the one Mystic has plans for, the one Chapelle documented, the one on page 157 of The Sea Bright Skiff and Other Jersey Shore Boats, but where are there plans for a 16 footer? I ask because I'd like to know.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by johngsandusky View Post
    The books by Howard I Chapelle have an original plan that would include frames and plank dimensions. Copies of those plans are available from the Smithsonian Institute.
    Smithsonian is strictly surface mail. The United States of America's premier museum has not discovered the internet.
    http://americanhistory.si.edu/about/...try/ship-plans
    The prices are:

    1. Ship Plans List/Maritime Collection: $20.00
    2. The Maritime Administration Collection of Ship Plans (1939-1970): $15.00
    3. The Smithsonian Collection of Warship Plans: $15.00

    Foreign orders may obtain airmail by adding an additional US $5.00. Please indicate which catalog(s) you wish to receive and enclose a check or money order payable to the Smithsonian Institution for the total amount. Do not send cash. We cannot accept credit card orders. All foreign orders should be paid by check, in U.S. funds, payable on a New York bank.
    All orders are handled by mail. Please send your order to:
    Ship Plans
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    More Melonseed plans: (lapstreak)
    https://store.mysticseaport.org/ship...onseed&x=0&y=0
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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    There's the one Mystic has plans for, the one Chapelle documented, the one on page 157 of The Sea Bright Skiff and Other Jersey Shore Boats, but where are there plans for a 16 footer? I ask because I'd like to know.
    While not historic, John Brady of the Philly Independence Seaport Museum drew plans for a 16' seed, Mike Wick's Pepita
    Steve B
    Sjogin IIIa
    PAYTON 13' Pea Pod

    RIVUS 16' Melonseed


    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by SBrookman View Post
    While not historic, John Brady of the Philly Independence Seaport Museum drew plans for a 16' seed, Mike Wick's Pepita
    Well, it certainly looks right. Is it caravel construction? Those plans might solve Mr. Bruna's problem.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Pepita was stripped built but scantlings more robust than Barto's. Brady mentioned that he would redesign the CB if doing it again.
    Steve B
    Sjogin IIIa
    PAYTON 13' Pea Pod

    RIVUS 16' Melonseed


    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    ^ You mean they wont accept Bitcoin?
    Only if they can't see the tooth marks in the gold.
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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Ben; If I understand well, you mean that to use the WB plans, designed to build lapstrake 1/4" ply, I must use solid wood 1/2"? Is this the equivalence ?. And what do you think about the plan ribs. May I use the sames, directly as they are proposed in the plans for ply?
    I wait for your comments.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by enrique bruna View Post
    Ben; If I understand well, you mean that to use the WB plans, designed to build lapstrake 1/4" ply, I must use solid wood 1/2"? Is this the equivalence ?. And what do you think about the plan ribs. May I use the sames, directly as they are proposed in the plans for ply?
    I wait for your comments.
    Well, unless you do batten seam you need enough thickness (depth of seam) to accept the caulking cotton and filler. Plus enough thickness for backing out and scrubbing off the the threepenny bit look that you will get with carvel.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Well, unless you do batten seam you need enough thickness (depth of seam) to accept the caulking cotton and filler. Plus enough thickness for backing out and scrubbing off the the threepenny bit look that you will get with carvel.
    That would be what, about 18 mm planking? I suppose you could take care of it in the lofting, just leave more room for the skin.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    1/2" plank thickness is about the minimum for carvel planking. Without seeing the plans, that would usually land on frames at least 1/2"x 3/4".

    The lofted lines from the plans will work for any construction method, but many other details will change, such as the framing, rabbets, and maybe even the shear clamp. These aren't super difficult changes, and the original plans (chappelle) can be referenced as needed.

    What I meant about understanding the tradeoffs is that carvel must be kept in the water so the planks stay swollen. If you plan to sail it off a trailer each time, carvel is not a good choice. I agree about the amount of plastic put in the environment from other types of construction, I also feel carvel boats have more soul than their encapsulated brethren.

    Batten seam is a good way to make lightweight chine boats out of solid timber, but it seems like too much work on this round bilged type. It could be done I suppose.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Batten seam is a good way to make lightweight chine boats out of solid timber, but it seems like too much work on this round bilged type. It could be done I suppose.
    It was common on small light (optimised) hulls. I personally have seen an old Humber yawl done batten seam. Apparently common in Aus http://www.openboat.com.au/boatbuilding.html
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Madison; clear your explanation!It is a huge risk to begin making all the adaptation on the plans. I feel I´m condemned to make the boat strip planked.
    But, what about using Boatlife caulking?.I dont know the product, but I suspect is like a marine sealant, if so , it must be enough. What do you think about?

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Why not build it strip planked the traditional way? Nails and paint instead of epoxy, screwed or nailed on frames. This is a small boat, fitting the strips to be watertight should not take forever. A rot resistant wood would be in order, don't really know what is available to you.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Why not build it strip planked the traditional way? Nails and paint instead of epoxy, screwed or nailed on frames. This is a small boat, fitting the strips to be watertight should not take forever. A rot resistant wood would be in order, don't really know what is available to you.
    Most traditionally fastened ( nailed ) boats use 2-3 cm, 1" planking so that the strips don't split when being nailed. Too heavy for this little boat.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    I've seen nailed strip done with 18mm thick hardwood strips but if it's to heavy it's to heavy. Maybe double planking with 6mm and a canvas layer set in paint in between? Or even single plank and canvass like the canoes? All this asuming the OP has access to some light rot resistant wood of course.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    I've seen nailed strip done with 18mm thick hardwood strips but if it's to heavy it's to heavy. Maybe double planking with 6mm and a canvas layer set in paint in between? Or even single plank and canvass like the canoes? All this asuming the OP has access to some light rot resistant wood of course.
    My guess is that holes were drilled for the nails, but hardwood might work better. There were many German and Swedish sailing and paddling canoes built in the 1930s with a canvas sometimes sail cloth layer as shown in books by Artur Tiller. Some of these would be really nice boats to build today,
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Definetly drilled for nailing, the used woods were mahagony or oak for the planking on bent oak frames.

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Well:
    I have at hand cipres with a weight about 480 kg/ mt3, it means that building the M.Seed planking carvel 1/2" is not different to build with 8mm plywood, given the lapstrake ply ad 10% aprox in the seam, and the sanding work over solid wood may low the real volume of wood. Lack to know how to caulk the 1/2 carvel planking.
    What method, product recomended, etc.
    I´m amazed with the collaborative interest all of this crew!!! Thanks, many thanks .

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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Quote Originally Posted by enrique bruna View Post
    Well:
    I have at hand cipres with a weight about 480 kg/ mt3, it means that building the M.Seed planking carvel 1/2" is not different to build with 8mm plywood, given the lapstrake ply ad 10% aprox in the seam, and the sanding work over solid wood may low the real volume of wood. Lack to know how to caulk the 1/2 carvel planking.
    What method, product recomended, etc.
    I´m amazed with the collaborative interest all of this crew!!! Thanks, many thanks .
    There are several different woods called cipres (cypress in English). Is this Patagonian Cypress?
    Patagonian Cypress:
    https://www.woodworkerssource.com/wo...20cupressoides
    http://globaltrees.org/threatened-tr...onian-cypress/
    Other woods called Cypress:
    https://www.woodworkerssource.com/wo...+Now+%3E%3E%3E

    EDIT: This doesn't help the OP much so in response to Rumars Post #36:
    Patagonian Cypress:
    https://www.conifers.org/cu/Fitzroya.php
    Pilgerodendron uviferum
    https://www.conifers.org/cu/Libocedrus_uvifera.php
    austrocedrus chilensis
    https://www.conifers.org/cu/Austrocedrus.php
    Last edited by MN Dave; 12-20-2018 at 12:57 PM.
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  35. #35
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    Default Re: melonseed carvel planked?

    Wooden Boat Magazine #180, September/October 2004 has a long article about Melonseed skiffs. There is a brief description of building them in plank on frame. The author uses northern white ceder on black locust frames. He wrote that if your careful in wood selection, and do a neat job, the boat will stay mostly dry.

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