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Thread: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    You've been wrong about it from the beginning. And you don't support these people. Take a break.
    Perhaps you might read my posts. I have thought this was about disappointment and disagreement with Macron, who is seen as elitist and out of touch. I think this is demonstrably true. I have written that this is not backlash against global warming intervention. The fact that protests continue after that tax has been deferred make that clear.

    You think this is an anti-globalist and pro-Le Pen/Trump thing. There is no evidence for that whatsoever. If there is, prove it.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Cris, I don't need to prove anything. It's my thread. I'll say what I like. You are free to do the same. None of this obliges me to prove anything or debate it with you. You seem heavily invested in being "right" here. You should perhaps examine why.

    Why don't you support the protesters?

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Do you back the protesters, SB?
    if so, why?

    I do not back them one way or the other, because I am not French, and it is not my argument.
    If I lived there, it might be different.

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    You'd like these protesters to go home. Because on some level, they're protesting you, and your values.
    Now you're getting all the way down to home SB!

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    As to Trump and Le Pen, I am certain that many Europeans admire Trump, with many wishing they could have their own version of him. I agree the protests have nothing to do with Le Pen. She's been out of politics for more than a year. She was seen marching anonymously with the protesters, suggesting she agrees with their grievances. Le Figaro did an online cover piece on it; the second photo I posted of her to this thread was from that piece.

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Cris, I don't need to prove anything. It's my thread. I'll say what I like. You are free to do the same. None of this obliges me to prove anything or debate it with you. You seem heavily invested in being "right" here. You should perhaps examine why.

    Why don't you support the protesters?
    I don't care about being "right". I object to statements which mischaracterize the protesters in France and their motivations.

    What in the world makes you think I don't support the protester's right to protest? What makes you think I disagree with their opposition to an overbearing, overtaxing, anti-entrepreneurial state which has limited opportunity and hope? I am quite disappointed with Macron, and view with dismay the alternatives of Le Pen nastiness or the return of the socialists. I love France and the French, and hope to spend part of my retirement there.

    But to be clear, I see no evidence that this is a protest against global warming intervention, or a cry for Le Pen or Trump, which has been claimed here.

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    Do you back the protesters, SB?
    if so, why?

    I do not back them one way or the other, because I am not French, and it is not my argument.
    If I lived there, it might be different.
    These high-minded principles have not stopped you from commenting here about Trump. How does that work? You're not an American.

    And yes, I support the protesters. Some of the reasons why are articulated in the O'Neil piece I linked. He's a Brit. He has an opinion. Supports the Yellow Vest movement.

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Save it, Cris. You've articulated no support for the protesters here and have spent your time demanding that everyone define as you would like. You've even gone so far as to insist that it's a Left wing movement.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Save it, Cris. You've articulated no support for the protesters here and have spent your time demanding that everyone define as you would like. You've even gone so far as to insist that it's a Left wing movement.
    You got down to brass tacks when suggesting some resent the protestors because they are protesting their worldview, which is the heart of the matter.

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    These high-minded principles have not stopped you from commenting here about Trump. How does that work? You're not an American.

    And yes, I support the protesters. Some of the reasons why are articulated in the O'Neil piece I linked. He's a Brit. He has an opinion. Supports the Yellow Vest movement.
    Better get out the yellow vest, and protest about your own authoritarian President then, SB.
    Exactly like Macron, Trump's tax changes have made a fair section of the poorest people poorer, and the top 1% much richer. That's precisely what forms the basis for the French protests.

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    You've even gone so far as to insist that it's a Left wing movement.
    You're mistaking me for some other Bilge Rat. I have written no such thing.

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    We arrived this afternoon in the Gare du Nord. Many policemen there but a relaxed atmosfere. When we entered the building of our appartment one of the inhabitants asked us what we thought about the Gilets Jaunes but, being tired from the trip, I did not want to get drawn into a political discusdion at that moment. Tommorow possibly.

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    You're mistaking me for some other Bilge Rat. I have written no such thing.
    My mistake. Apologies.

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    We arrived this afternoon in the Gare du Nord. Many policemen there but a relaxed atmosfere. When we entered the building of our appartment one of the inhabitants asked us what we thought about the Gilets Jaunes but, being tired from the trip, I did not want to get drawn into a political discusdion at that moment. Tommorow possibly.
    In your neighborhood there (if you're staying within walking distance of Gare Du Nord) is a nice little café (good steaks, reasonably priced) at the corner of Rue Dunkerque and Boulevard de la Chappelle. Right next door there is a little city park ("Square D'anvers) which on Friday evenings has a fun Farmers' Market with excellent meats, cheeses and wines. There is a great little bakery with fabulous bagettes and pain au raison on Rue Dunkerque just a couple of blocks North of the station.

    Envious of your trip! Have fun!

  15. #120
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapelapente View Post
    We have a two turns direct election for our président.
    During the first turn the "believed to win candidate", François Fillon (LR party), had to face a media campaign about his wife collaboration in his deputy activity.
    The fact is, even if it can be criticized, that it was perfectly legal, and many deputies of all parties did the same. Even the president of the assembly, Claude Bartolone (socialist), had his wife employed at the same time. But the media managed to concentrate their attacks against Fillon.
    The aim was to get him out for the second turn.
    They succeded.
    Some judges, obviously participating in the manipulation, intended a case against Fillon. With no result.

    So at the second turn we had the choice between Macron (from finance and medias party, La République En Marche, created some months before for the purpose) and Le Pen (extreme right party).
    The "normal" parties, Republicans (LR), and Socialist where disqualified.
    France can't , so far, elect a far right president, so we had no other choice to elect Macron, who hardly reached 20 % at the first turn.
    Here is how he got the votes.
    I personally refused to participate in this spoofing.
    Ah, okay - sorry, I had forgotten the background. Thanks

  16. #121
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Saturday is really building up big, the anticipation of what may happen is really driving up the tension.

    Hot rumours:

    Some in the media establishment are referring, privately, to Saturday now as a possible coup attempt.

    One of the Police unions is considering a strike on Saturday. They don't think their officers should be out there as Macron's cannon fodder. Macron should instead step down.

    If Saturday is big enough to get Macron teetering, the protesters are going to turn right around on Monday and shut down all of the physical infrastructure in the country, airports, trains, freeways, everything.

  17. #122
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    If Saturday is big enough to get Macron teetering, the protesters are going to turn right around on Monday and shut down all of the physical infrastructure in the country, airports, trains, freeways, everything.
    You’ve been to France often enough to know this isn’t unusual.

    When I was in Paris in late May of this year all the transport unions were on strike.

    Coup? Seems a bit over the top. Earlier I wrote Macron was in trouble. You disagreed, saying he still had institutional support. Has your thinking evolved/changed?

  18. #123
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    has your thinking changed?
    A little. It depends on Saturday. And you're right. Institutionally, he's weak. He doesn't have an historic institutional party structure grounded in loyalty like a Socialist or a Conservative would. There is already talk of confidence votes. And if the cops go wobbly, wouldn't he have to resign?

    He was congratulated for backing down, but it was an empty ploy, a stray piece of red meat that has only got the juices flowing even more. He shouldn't have done it.

    It all depends on Saturday. It could fizzle. Or it could be the beginning of something much bigger, much bigger certainly than just France.

    I'm jealous of FF. I'd like to be there. The whole thing is incredibly French.

  19. #124
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    I'd like to be there. The whole thing is incredibly French.
    Protest is one aspect of French culture.

    If you were there, you could tell them how happy you were that they are striking blows against globalism and climate change mitigation. Then, congratulate them for embracing Trump. The response would be incredibly French.

  20. #125
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    I just heard on the radio a British presenter arguing the possibility the Yellow Vests may be setting in motion events that could end up with the dissolution of the EU. Its crazy, but in this political age, anything seems possible.

    The same presenter argued that SA, Iran and China are watching very closely and hoping for a government overreaction, something they would dearly love.

    This one does seem different. It seems that some people want their country back. I find it rather inspiring. Sorry.

  21. #126
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    In your neighborhood there (if you're staying within walking distance of Gare Du Nord) is a nice little café (good steaks, reasonably priced) at the corner of Rue Dunkerque and Boulevard de la Chappelle. Right next door there is a little city park ("Square D'anvers) which on Friday evenings has a fun Farmers' Market with excellent meats, cheeses and wines. There is a great little bakery with fabulous bagettes and pain au raison on Rue Dunkerque just a couple of blocks North of the station.
    Sounds like the sort of stuff that you (being one of the moneyed elite) can afford, but the yellow-vest protestors can't even touch. They aren't even making rent and utilities.

    What they're protesting is the growing economic inequality, with your sort of people taking a greater share and all the working folk getting less.

    So tell us again why you claim common cause with people who are dead set against your predatory, privileged class?
    Last edited by Chip-skiff; 12-07-2018 at 01:01 AM.
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  22. #127
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Why are you blokes so opposed to these protesters? The whole mood on this is quite dour. The reality is that you are more sympathetic to Macron and the worldview he represents than you are for the basic needs and grievances of these people.

    Very strange for a bunch of so-called "progressives." Or not.

  23. #128
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Why are you blokes so opposed to these protesters? The whole mood on this is quite dour. The reality is that you are more sympathetic to Macron and the worldview he represents than you are for the basic needs and grievances of these people.

    Very strange for a bunch of so-called "progressives." Or not.
    Stop tossing in crap like bad French and "blokes" which only underlines what a quasi-sophisticate you hope (and fail) to be.

    Where does your money come from? Reckon you've never worked with your hands in your whole life.

    The yellow vest people would give you a right smart arse-kicking if you showed up in their ranks, with your designer haircut and tasseled loafers.
    We're merely mammals. Let's misbehave! —Cole Porter

  24. #129
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    You blokes are so funny.

    I support them, you don't, but I'm the one they don't like.

    Night now.

  25. #130
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    I'm not funny. But you're a joke.

    What do you live on? Where does your money come from?

    Or are you like Trump, with his tax returns?
    We're merely mammals. Let's misbehave! —Cole Porter

  26. #131
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    I support them, you don't, but I'm the one they don't like.
    Perhaps, just perhaps, you are projecting into them certain views?

    Perhaps this is because they are anti-Macron, as is your President, and because the initial spark was protest against a fuel tax?

    So far, I tally that you think they are: anti-globalist, anti-EU, anti-global warming measures, and pro-Trump. And by the way, anti-Macron.

    I reckon they are pretty much indifferent to or diametrically opposed to these views, except the Macron bit. This is a protest against an administration which they see as uninterested in them, and which favors rich people.

    As a fun thought exercise, imagine that these protesters were in D.C., protesting a tax bill and a President who they see favoring the rich. Imagine they graffitied the Lincoln Memorial and burned cars and trashed boutiques on Pennsylvania Avenue. Where would you stand?

    According to a poll conducted Sunday by Harris Interactive for French media, 72 percent of French people support the yellow vests, even after Saturday's riots. But 85 percent responded they are against the violence. ...
    Political leaders such as Marine Le Pen, the leader of the far-right National Rally (formerly the National Front), and Jean-Luc Mélenchon of the far-left France Unbowed have tried without success to latch on to the yellow vests. The inability of these two parties, which usually do well with groups who feel marginalized, signals that the yellow vest protesters are fed up with all figures of the political establishment.
    https://www.npr.org/2018/12/03/67286...t-do-they-want

  27. #132
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    I really think that none of the protesters has any thoughts toward Trump.
    They are more concentrated on their daily life concerns.
    one number can explain the problem : 45%
    The French Gross domestic product this year will be cut at 45 % by Statutory charges. N° 1 in Europe, and for taxes as well.
    And our public spending and debt are still increasing.
    We have twice the number of public workers than Germany.
    It becomes unbearable.
    These events probably will be a saving clash.
    The Gilets Jaunes are trying to find, with the authorities, solutions to limit the violent minorities (Leftists, Rightists, anarchists) for tomorrow protests.
    Gerard.
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  28. #133
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    I don't actually believe they are pro-Trump. That's a fun tweak line to get the sillies all wound up.

    I do believe people in France are looking for leadership that will put French people first. Clearly they are opposed to excessive taxes on the poor and middle class, climate taxes, and Macron's vision for the country going forward, which is globalist and pro-EU. Macron was supposed to take on Merkel's role as the de facto head of a united Europe.

    The Yellow Vests have changed all that.

  29. #134
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    I don't actually believe they are pro-Trump. That's a fun tweak line to get the sillies all wound up.
    Bluey finally admits it's been BS, and he's trolling!

  30. #135
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    Bluey finally admits it's been BS, and he's trolling!
    Do you have something of value to add to the discussion about the protests, birlinn? Some of your own thoughts, a link to an interesting discussion piece or news item, perhaps? Anything at all?

    Perhaps you can articulate why you don't really support the protesters, why few here actually do. Any thoughts?

  31. #136
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Have already stated my views.
    Unlike you, I am not BS-ing just to wind people up.
    But carry on trolling; I am sure you would hate to be ignored.

  32. #137
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    There is just the most dour mood here about the protests. As we wait for Act 4 and discuss the issues, I just wish people would be honest about why the gloom.

    Why the gloom?

  33. #138
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    So there is discussion now that the Yellow Vest protest could not have materialized as it has without the existence of Facebook as an organizing platform.

    I don't know that as to this protest this is necessarily a bad thing, but ACB's analysis about Facebook, and it's role in popular social political movements, immediately comes to mind. Clearly Facebook is an enormous threat to government, to the globalist vision, and perhaps even democracy itself.

    Are we unhappy with Facebook for its role in the Yellow Vest protest? Can we say that the role Facebook has played is necessarily a good or bad thing?

  34. #139
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Facebook allows anonymous “interactions” that seem to help fuel divides by making it easier to dehumanize others.

    It also allows grandmas to see grandkid’s puppies.

    Peace,
    Robert

  35. #140
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    Default Re: Les Gilets Jaunes Triompheront

    Since the Gilets Jaunes have no structure, as an Union or a party could have, for sure all the numeric chat systems are the key to organise common actions.
    I'm not on Face Book, as I never tried to understand how it works, but I can see my wife using it a lot in his business community. As she hardly understand a few in computers, I guess it's not so difficult to use
    Please don't tell her what I wrote
    Gerard.
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    http://www.goelette-anthea.fr

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