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Thread: Update me on Brexit

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    This is one Brit who is looking forward to the possibility of the government being in contempt of parliament for witholding the legal advice about our position.Combine this with the Prime Minister always referring to the "will of the people" as the basis for the move,which I interpret as a device for deflecting criticism of a disadvantageous outcome and it isn't too hard to see that the whole thing is an utter fiasco.One of our latest triumphs is to walk away from the Galileo project.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    John we didn't walk away from Galileo. The Europeans are denying us access. They are quite happy for our new carriers, planes and nuclear weapons to disproportionately provide European security, not to mention our intelligence services. It shows what monsters the Europeans are.

    Still we built and run much of the current system including developing the important PRS encryption. We have a micro space industry and can put satellites up again easily.

    If we're kept out, the Europeans will get delayed. The cost isn't that much either in the grand scheme of things. We have a network of islands around the world for signal reception.

    F 'em. It's things like this that define why we are not them, and they are not us.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    John we didn't walk away from Galileo. The Europeans are denying us access. They are quite happy for our new carriers, planes and nuclear weapons to disproportionately provide European security, not to mention our intelligence services. It shows what monsters the Europeans are.

    Still we built and run much of the current system including developing the important PRS encryption. We have a micro space industry and can put satellites up again easily.

    If we're kept out, the Europeans will get delayed. The cost isn't that much either in the grand scheme of things. We have a network of islands around the world for signal reception.

    F 'em. It's things like this that define why we are not them, and they are not us.
    Ungrateful Europeans. When we come up with a dumb idea that harms their best interests, they should have just bobbed a bow and pulled their forelocks.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #74
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    John we didn't walk away from Galileo. The Europeans are denying us access. They are quite happy for our new carriers, planes and nuclear weapons to disproportionately provide European security, not to mention our intelligence services. It shows what monsters the Europeans are.

    Still we built and run much of the current system including developing the important PRS encryption. We have a micro space industry and can put satellites up again easily.

    If we're kept out, the Europeans will get delayed. The cost isn't that much either in the grand scheme of things. We have a network of islands around the world for signal reception.

    F 'em. It's things like this that define why we are not them, and they are not us.
    Pearson and his ilk make me ashamed to be British.

    The post above is utter bollocks, written by a typical Quitling. He does not know what he is talking about, but then the only people amongst the near-Nazis who do know their subject are too busy making money out of it to tell the truth. Pearson can’t be bothered with facts. If he could, he would know that the Galileo issue turns on the military and security aspects of the system, not the civilian part, that “putting up our own satellites” would create a bandwidth issue and that a nation with some of the poorest areas in Europe as well as the richest has other things to be spending money on.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Anyway, tonight’s news is that the Government have refused to give the House access to the legal advice that their own lawyers gave them on their “deal”, and Mr Speaker Bercow has just ruled that prima facie the Government are now in contempt of Parliament, having failed to comply with a Loyal Address, and there will be an emergency debate on this tomorrow before other business.

    This is the start of the real crisis.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Not quite sure what you mean by that.
    We elect Members of the European Parliament.
    More here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/about
    I didn't know that, thanks.

    But I suspect alienation between the people, or some of them, and their representatives, not just because of our own example but because the sovereignty thing seems off, like, a cover for something else. What might that be?

    My hypothetical fisherman feels he's been sold out. For what, in particular? What does his EU rep get out of it?
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  7. #77
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Your hypothetical fisherman’s father was given his quota by Margaret Thatcher and he sold it to the Dutch or the Spanish, just as he sold the Council house that she sold him at a tiny fraction of its value.

    Other European nations were wiser. Fish quotas are held by ports, not by fishermen.

    Now he’s whinging and blaming “EU bureaucrats”.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Here’s the document that the Government are refusing to release:

    http://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wpen...ce-Aspects.pdf
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I didn't know that, thanks.

    But I suspect alienation between the people, or some of them, and their representatives, not just because of our own example but because the sovereignty thing seems off, like, a cover for something else. What might that be?

    My hypothetical fisherman feels he's been sold out. For what, in particular? What does his EU rep get out of it?
    We are not discussing the thinly disguised US system of back handers and promises of future wealth here.
    CODE OF CONDUCT FOR MEMBERS OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT WITH RESPECT TO FINANCIAL INTERESTS AND CONFLICTS OF INTEREST

    Article 1

    Guiding principles

    In exercising their duties, Members of the European Parliament:
    (a) are guided by and observe the following general principles of conduct: disinterest, integrity, openness, diligence, honesty, accountability and respect for Parliament’s reputation,

    (b) act solely in the public interest and refrain from obtaining or seeking to obtain any direct or indirect financial benefit or other reward.

    Article 2

    Main duties of Members

    In exercising their duties, Members of the European Parliament shall:
    (a) not enter into any agreement to act or vote in the interest of any other legal or natural person that would compromise their voting freedom, as enshrined in Article 6 of the Act of 20 September 1976 concerning the election of the members of the European Parliament by direct universal suffrage and Article 2 of the Statute for Members of the European Parliament,

    (b) not solicit, accept or receive any direct or indirect benefit or other reward, whether in cash or in kind, in exchange for specific behaviour in the scope of the Member's parliamentary work, and shall consciously seek to avoid any situation which might imply bribery, corruption, or undue influence,

    (c) not engage in paid professional lobbying directly linked to the Union decision-making process.
    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/pdf/me...01-2017_EN.pdf
    Those UK fishermen who feel sold out are p!!$ed because of the quota system that limits their income, and has them discard perfectly saleable fish where they have exceeded their quota. That and feeling that they are powerless to have their concerns listened to by MEP's who represent everyone in a largish constituency. The fisheries policies are discussed by committees of ministers who each head up each member states government department on the particular topic. So to be heard a fisherman from Cornwall has to get his elected MP to put pressure on the minister for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to take the argument to the EU Fisheries committee. it is democratic, but long-winded.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #80
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Scotland can argue for it all it likes, but it still needs permission from Westminster to hold a referendum. Didn't you have one recently?
    2014, Mr Pearson. And you may recall that one of Project Fear's biggest sticks against independence was that an independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU. The EU was endlessly promoted, during this campaign, as a positive entity for all the nations of the UK.

    Roll on two years, and the Brexit referendum returned a result where the electorate in all 32 councils in Scotland voted in favour of Remain, to a national result of 62% in favour of the status quo.

    Westminster, in June this year, spent a grand total of fifteen minutes - with filibustering by the Tories, and no Scottish MPs heard - to seek complete control over devolved powers in Holyrood.

    You think any of this was fair, Edward?

    This isn't a Union. It's the pi$$-poor 300-year-old remains of an English-dominated empire, subjugating those smaller than itself, wherever and whenever it can.

    The political territory has changed immeasurably over the past four years ... a majority SNP government has a mandate for independence, the right to hold a referendum for independence, whenever the hell it likes.

    Andy
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    ^God Damn to Hell those people who promoted the Darien Scheme. . . . oh wait . . . .
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #82
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Andrew,

    I've noted vitriolic spume seems to be your preferred mode of argument when you're stressed, and it's so frequent that I now regard it as one of your main characteristics. Your actions are neither Liberal nor one of a democrat.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    2014, Mr Pearson. And you may recall that one of Project Fear's biggest sticks against independence was that an independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU. The EU was endlessly promoted, during this campaign, as a positive entity for all the nations of the UK.

    Roll on two years, and the Brexit referendum returned a result where the electorate in all 32 councils in Scotland voted in favour of Remain, to a national result of 62% in favour of the status quo.

    Westminster, in June this year, spent a grand total of fifteen minutes - with filibustering by the Tories, and no Scottish MPs heard - to seek complete control over devolved powers in Holyrood.

    You think any of this was fair, Edward?

    This isn't a Union. It's the pi$$-poor 300-year-old remains of an English-dominated empire, subjugating those smaller than itself, wherever and whenever it can.

    The political territory has changed immeasurably over the past four years ... a majority SNP government has a mandate for independence, the right to hold a referendum for independence, whenever the hell it likes.

    Andy
    Your quoting Lupussonic but adressing me?

    Andy, Scottish indpendence...it's upto you. You voted on mass for the SNP in wave of nationalism in the past 2 general elections. Unfortunately that means that you have less to say in governenence of the United Kingdom as it stands, as usually Labour or Conservatives are in power. Your only chance to directly have more control is as king makers in a hung parliament. Maybe next time with Labour. Obviously, the SNP just use this fact at every opportunity, declaring the 'Tory government' isn't listening but the crying wolf of Sturgeon has become so tedious Andy nobody listens anymore, south of your border.

    If you're happy to swap governance from London to Brussels, to become an 'ex state' in bigger Europa, accept decisions that may be not in your favour but another country then you go ahead. An independent Scotland in a fiscal and political European Union is an oxymoron. You can't have both now Andy. 30 years too late. Political union is the prerequisite of being in this single market. So who will you replace your centuries of national simmering bitterness with? Perhaps Junker or Tusk? You didn't directly elect them, and your national government didn't vote for them either.

    In 2018 your identity can be British, independent Scottish or European. You have those 3 choice now. You can't be "independent Scottish in Europe". By the way, with Scotlands 5m population in a European parliament of 750 seats, you would have just 8 allocated MEP's to influence policy. You will trade democraticaly elected one person for 60,000 to one per 600,000 in Europa. Is that the democratic accountability you crave after arguing for more local devolution and governence for the past 20 years?

    What is clear is that the hijacking of the single market by political unionists (Delors) has destabilised this corner of Europe.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 12-03-2018 at 09:17 PM.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Today's news is that the Advocate General to the European Court of Justice has stated his opinion that the Court will probably rule in favour of the motion, brought originally by Members of the Scots Parliament, but subscribed to by others, that Britain has the right to revoke it's Article 50 declaration unilaterally. The formal ruling, which will probably be along those lines, will follow later.

    In practice, this will not happen as it is unlikely that any British government would revoke the Article 50 declaration without another referendum, and it would not be possible to hold another referendum before March 29th 2019. That is not what the ruling was sought for - what it does do is to pull the props out from one of the Quitling lies - the one that says, "We can't go back on the same terms - the EU will punish us for leaving" .

    The way out of this national disaster, brought upon us by the Conservative Party trying to suck up to the near-Nazi voters, is to hold another referendum. To do this will take time and we would need to ask the 27 for approval to extend the deadline, but they have already stated that they will give it.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    As of just now (16.44 GMT) the Government have been defeated by 311 to 307 on a motion to refer the motion to hold the Government in contempt of Parliament for refusing to table the legal advice received on the "backstop" to the Committee on Privileges. in another few minutes the vote substantive motion to hold the Government in contempt will be announced.

    The BBC have just pulled out of hosting the television "debate" with Jeremy Corbyn that Mrs May had asked for.

    Update: the Government have been held in contempt of Parliament by 311 votes to 295 on the main motion.

    I don't recall this having happened before.

    The Attorney General's legal advice to the Government must now be published in full. It is very bad for the Government because it states that Britain cannot exit the back stop without the consent of the EU, which means that all negotiations over trade with the EU are subject to the EU's veto.
    Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 12-04-2018 at 12:09 PM.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    News:

    The government has been found in CONTEMPT of parliament.

    Ayes - 311
    Noes - 293
    Majority - 18

    Extraordinary scenes. This has never happened in recent history.
    Gruß, Günter

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    What we are seeing is the legislature taking back power from the executive.

    Worth noting that the only reason the House of Commons is voting on the Government's Brexit deal at all is that Gina Miller brought a private action before the Supreme Court to require it to do so, and that when the Supremes agreed with her, Paul Dacre's "Daily Mail" called the Judges of the Supreme Court "Enemies of the people"

    Edited to add: as I was typing that, the House voted in favour of Dominic Grieve's amendment to the Standing Orders - which in effect gives Parliament control of what happens when the Government's Brexit deal is voted down - by twenty votes.
    Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 12-04-2018 at 12:52 PM.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    I'd like to ba able to call this fun - but it's more like a slow motion train wreck.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    I'd like to ba able to call this fun - but it's more like a slow motion train wreck.
    The train wreck started when Cameron caved to the Tory Little Englanders and UKIP without bothering to think through any of the consequences.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  20. #90
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    More news:

    The Grieve amendment has passed - in the second embarrassing loss for the PM today.

    Ayes 321
    Nos 299


    Which means, the parliament has a say in what will be next, if it has rejected Ms May's brexit deal.
    Gruß, Günter

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Theresa May does not seem to be very good at this.
    Steve Martinsen

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Andrew,

    I've noted vitriolic spume seems to be your preferred mode of argument when you're stressed, and it's so frequent that I now regard it as one of your main characteristics. Your actions are neither Liberal nor one of a democrat.
    That is bizarre, coming from someone who just labelled millions of people as "monsters".

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Today was a very good day.


    It started with the Advocate General’s Opinion that the European Court Of Justice should rule that Britain can revoke the Article 50 declaration.


    Which means, as a minimum, that the Quitlings can no longer claim that “the EU won’t let us rejoin” and at the best that we can just never leave.


    It continued with the House of Commons passing Keir Starmer’s motion that the Government are in contempt of Parliament.


    And the icing on the cake was the House of Commons passing Dominic Grieve’s amendment empowering Parliament to decide what to do if May’s deal is rejected.


    We are, indeed, starting to Take Back Control.


    From the Near Nazis.


    It’s not the end. It’s not the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Be careful what you wish for, ACB. There will be no winners. If the plebiscite result is ignored the government invites a generation of low level sabotage, a citizen's veto (if you will). More than half of the country's voters will have been disenfranchised. Only fools would see such a result as "good news."

    If any possibility existed that the government would not see the country out of the Union on a vote to Leave, the vote should never have taken place. Petitioners should have sought to declare the plebiscite unconstitutional in the abstract.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Be careful what you wish for, ACB. There will be no winners. If the plebiscite result is ignored the government invites a generation of low level sabotage, a citizen's veto (if you will). More than half of the country's voters will have been disenfranchised. Only fools would see such a result as "good news."

    If any possibility existed that the government would not see the country out of the Union on a vote to Leave, the vote should never have taken place. Petitioners should have sought to declare the plebiscite unconstitutional in the abstract.
    That is correct.
    A second referendum could put it to bed once and for all. A fully informed referendum, now that the disinformation and outright lies of the first one have been debunked.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  26. #96
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Your quoting Lupussonic but adressing me?
    Sorry Edward. My mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    ... but the crying wolf of Sturgeon has become so tedious Andy nobody listens anymore, south of your border.
    Enjoy the Daily Mail, much?

    Andy
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Hey Sky Blue, what is up with your buddy Nigel Farage quitting UKIP?
    Steve Martinsen

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is correct.
    A second referendum could put it to bed once and for all. A fully informed referendum, now that the disinformation and outright lies of the first one have been debunked.
    And that first one was merely 'advisory', recall.

    Andy
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Things are looking up, indeed.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  30. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    And that first one was merely 'advisory', recall.

    Andy
    Unfortunately the Tory front bench did not have the bottle to do what Cameron failed to do, and declare the idea to not be in the UK's best interest. They are now reaping what they have sown.
    .
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  31. #101
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    There should be a second vote
    No. There can't be a second vote. If Brexit is not going to occur, then this is where ACB is right. Parliament would need to slow walk its own veto, slowly grinding the process down to nothing, to a point where it stops entirely. All momentum dies. At that point you let 'em sue.

    At most, Parliament might be compelled to take a vote to the effect that it won't be doing anything further. If that.

    Harbor no illusions. The cost of a de facto "Remain" will be extremely steep. Get ready for deep, deep cynicism in your country the issue of whether consensual government exists there and the extent to which the state remains "democratic."

    There will be more demagoguery, not less.

  32. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    No. There can't be a second vote. If Brexit is not going to occur, then this is where ACB is right. Parliament would need to slow walk its own veto, slowly grinding the process down to nothing, to a point where it stops entirely. All momentum dies. At that point you let 'em sue.

    At most, Parliament might be compelled to take a vote to the effect that it won't be doing anything further. If that.

    Harbor no illusions. The cost of a de facto "Remain" will be extremely steep. Get ready for deep, deep cynicism in your country the issue of whether consensual government exists there and the extent to which the state remains "democratic."

    There will be more demagoguery, not less.
    Parliament voting in the UK's best interest is the essence of our constitutional democratic government, that is why we elect MP's. MP's who are given the facilities and time to become better informed than Daily Wail and Sun readers. I would be more than happy for our MP's to do their job and decide on what is in the best interest of the UK, including Norn Iron, and the Scots, as well as England and Wales. My MP is holding a surgery on Thursday specifically to poll his constituents wishes on the issue. I intend to be there.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  33. #103
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by SMARTINSEN View Post
    what is up with Nigel Farage quitting UKIP?
    It's politics. The base of UKIP will not abandon questions about the scope and reach of Islam in a multiculturalist UK. That motive is more powerful in UKIP than Farage is.

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    The real challenge is that if the UK doesn't Leave, your disenfranchised body politic becomes even more susceptible to political figures promising to restore "power to the people."

    We've already seen that a majority of voters in Britain can be persuaded to that call. The UK may Remain, but I don't think that really solves anything.

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    It's politics. The base of UKIP will not abandon questions about the scope and reach of Islam in a multiculturalist UK. That motive is more powerful in UKIP than Farage is.
    Yep, it a;ways was a grass roots racist organisation from the get go.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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