Update me on Brexit

[Osborne Russell]

The principle argument is still preserving Britain's sovereignty, right?

Especially in terms of trade?

Including product safety, working conditions . . . everything?

In the US the commerce clause (Congress shall have power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes") is the source of much regulation. Anti-trust, civil rights, harbors, airports, drugs. Hard to believe that EU membership means all that. There is no federal government of Europe.

What are the particular aspects of sovereignty which the EU is thought to threaten?

The argument can't be that agreement to be bound by others is objectionable per se. That would mean no trade agreements of any kind.

[AndyG]

No, the principle driving force of Brexit was, is, and always will be, to keep people out of the country. Those people who work across the NHS, pick vegetables, do menial tasks, and so on.

By keeping these people out, Brexit will ensure the UK returns to a halcyon age - somewhere between the 1930s and 1950s - where Everything Was Wonderful and there were fewer foreign languages on the streets.

Cynical Andy

[Paul Pless]

mgbga

make great britain great again

[Sky Blue]

You're going to be just fine, Andy.

[David W Pratt]

As an American, I can tell you, there have always been foreign languages on the streets of England; most of them called 'English'

[Sky Blue]

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I think the target timeframe is 1830 to 1910.

And or cloud- Cuckoo land.

[Sky Blue]

You're going to be just fine, PIS-N

[amish rob]

I think the target timeframe is 1830 to 1910.

And or cloud- Cuckoo land.

Ha! Cloud-Cuckoo land!

Peace,
Robert

[Peerie Maa]

The principle argument is still preserving Britain's sovereignty, right?

Especially in terms of trade?

Including product safety, working conditions . . . everything?

In the US the commerce clause (Congress shall have power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes") is the source of much regulation. Anti-trust, civil rights, harbors, airports, drugs. Hard to believe that EU membership means all that. There is no federal government of Europe.

What are the particular aspects of sovereignty which the EU is thought to threaten?

The argument can't be that agreement to be bound by others is objectionable per se. That would mean no trade agreements of any kind.

It never did. we were equal members of the Europeans parliament with elected MEPs. That gave us an equal say on everything that the EU were discussing, proposing or agreeing.
The only real change is in an ability to pick and chose who comes to work here from the EU member states. One of the central planks of the EU, alongside a level playing field for freedom to trade was free movement of labour. That will cease.

[Sky Blue]

So many on the Island are quietly and desperately crying out for their own Trump, their own version of him. If only it could be. But there's only one.

[Canoeyawl]

I think there's a tv show about this...

Make Britain Bake Again

[Peerie Maa]

So many on the Island are quietly and desperately crying out for their own Trump, their own version of him. If only it could be. But there's only one.

Sheesh but you are delusional. Do you have to work at being a fool or does it come naturally?

[lupussonic]

No, the principle driving force of Brexit was, is, and always will be, to keep people out of the country. Those people who work across the NHS, pick vegetables, do menial tasks, and so on.

By keeping these people out, Brexit will ensure the UK returns to a halcyon age - somewhere between the 1930s and 1950s - where Everything Was Wonderful and there were fewer foreign languages on the streets.

Cynical Andy

I am UK born and bred, and I have worked 8 years in the fields, below minimum wage, alongside Portugese, Spanish, Polish, Romanians. You? Ever worked in the fields where you are? The halcyon age of the 1930's is still alive and well in the UK as long as you shop for cabbages in Sainsburys Andy.

Brexit was not just voted on concerning immigration, but also constitutional issues. Care to comment on what it means for an island nations mentality to be governed by officials that they did not elect? Do you want less democracy, less say in your governance? Even less than you already have? That is the emotion, right or wrong, that people voted on.

We in Cornwall have only just discovered brown bread, let alone brown people, and we are far from having our limits pushed as far as being drowned out too fast by foreign languages or school quotas, or housing shortages goes. But having worked on the East coast alongside colleagues who have had their limits pushed, I have had my eyes opened.

Cheap labour from overseas is irrefutably good for the UK, something that brexiteeers failed to realise, but be that as it may, we still fail to control our border, even as an island nation. We do not know exactly our net in vs out shamefully. An internal issue I realise.

By the way, just to remind you, I did not vote in the referendum, it was far too complicated a question for me. I have lived/worked for more than 15 years on mainland Europe, speak 3 European languages, and I have 4 mixed race nieces and nephews, so please don't go there.

[Peerie Maa]

Brexit was not just voted on concerning immigration, but also constitutional issues. Care to comment on what it means for an island nations mentality to be governed by officials that they did not elect? Do you want less democracy, less say in your governance? Even less than you already have? That is the emotion, right or wrong, that people voted on.

We in Cornwall have only just discovered brown bread, let alone brown people, and we are far from having our limits pushed as far as being drowned out too fast by foreign languages or school quotas, or housing shortages goes. But having worked on the East coast alongside colleagues who have had their limits pushed, I have had my eyes opened.

Recognise any of these unelected people?

Your MEPs

The below Members of the European Parliament (MEP’s), elected in May 2014 by proportional representation, represent the South West region as a whole (Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Somerset, Wiltshire, Bristol and Gloucestershire). Contact any of them, using the links below to find contact information, for help and advice on European matters.

• 
  William (The Earl of) Dartmouth UK Independence Party
• 
  Ashley Fox Conservative Party
• 
  Julie Girling Independent
• 
  Clare Moody Labour Party
• 
  Julia Reid UK Independence Party
• 
  Molly Scott-Cato Green Party

Mind you, with two UKIPers in that list no wonder you don't feel properly represented in the European Parliament.

[AnalogKid]

No, the principle driving force of Brexit was, is, and always will be, to keep people out of the country. Those people who work across the NHS, pick vegetables, do menial tasks, and so on.

By keeping these people out, Brexit will ensure the UK returns to a halcyon age - somewhere between the 1930s and 1950s - where Everything Was Wonderful and there were fewer foreign languages on the streets.

Cynical Andy

My take on it is that the principle reason is the most right-leaning members of the nasty party don't like all the protection that workers and consumers get from raw, unbridled capitalism, that's their primary reason for wanting out - those pesky EU rules are getting in the way of making even more money. The xenophobic hysteria is just something they've whipped up to help sell it to the masses, making the riff-raff feel like that at least they are superior to someone. Of course, most of those hard-right tories are probably racist as well, but they wouldn't let that get in the way if there was money in it.

[Edward Pearson]

[Peerie Maa]

My take on it is that the principle reason is the most right-leaning members of the nasty party don't like all the protection that workers and consumers get from raw, unbridled capitalism, that's their primary reason for wanting out - those pesky EU rules are getting in the way of making even more money. The xenophobic hysteria is just something they've whipped up to help sell it to the masses, making the riff-raff feel like that at least they are superior to someone. Of course, most of those hard-right tories are probably racist as well, but they wouldn't let that get in the way if there was money in it.

Certainly applies to Ree Smog and his cronies, and possibly to the Daily Wail editorial policy makers. Those who voted probably do not know "what did the EU ever do for us", and probably voted the immigration card. There is evidence that some voted out because they blamed the EU for our British ministries failings and policies that ran counter to EU ideas.

[Osborne Russell]

No, the principle driving force of Brexit was, is, and always will be, to keep people out of the country.

No doubt that's one driving force, though it seems like an odd choice of means for that purpose.

But the driving force is another subject. I'm trying to learn anything has been added to the argument. You know, have they come up with any new bull S. Is it still sovereignty?

[Osborne Russell]

It never did. we were equal members of the Europeans parliament with elected MEPs. That gave us an equal say on everything that the EU were discussing, proposing or agreeing.
The only real change is in an ability to pick and chose who comes to work here from the EU member states. One of the central planks of the EU, alongside a level playing field for freedom to trade was free movement of labour. That will cease.

So Brexiters are against the free movement of labor? On what principle? Both ways or just to Britain?

[Osborne Russell]

From this American's perspective it's plain why Trumpers are Brexiters. No reason is given, and none appears, why else they should give a fig.

Brexit weakens NATO which helps Russia which helps Trump.

[Wine47]

So many on the Island are quietly and desperately crying out for their own Trump, their own version of him. If only it could be. But there's only one.

They can have ours!

[birlinn]

So many on the Island are quietly and desperately crying out for their own Trump, their own version of him. If only it could be. But there's only one.

Says the master of alternative reality.
What are you on? Magic mushrooms?

[Edward Pearson]

A few things we can assume, apart from Macron being a twat.

1. Theresa May’s deal isn’t going to get through Parliament (its a stinking dog turd of an aggreement) because of the last minute capitulation on the Irish backstop. We were expecting someone not to be pleased, but her deal offends everyone.

2. The DUP wont force a general election, as they are currently empowered king makers, but they can force a change in leadership (policy direction) by not voting with the government. The Conservatives dont want a general election, so she’ll have to go, even if she doesnt resign.

3. The MP’s and probably the EU are not going to let a dissorderly no deal brexit occur in March.

I’d say May’s deal will lose by a large number. She’ll try and get a modification, but it will too little too late. There will be a move to make her resign after the vote before Christmas. The only position I can see a majority of MP’s on all sides would vote for now, would be a Norway plus aggreement in EFTA. DUP, Scots, Con and Labour have said they would vote for it and EU is happiy with that. It will reduce payments, avoid border issues, gets us out of fisheries and farming. Its not perfect we have to accept free movement - buisness wont mind that, but it keeps the most people happy with regard to a vote in the Commons and can be done quickly with the EU with an article 50 extention probably. Technically the referendum will have been met - we would have left the EU.

[Peerie Maa]

So Brexiters are against the free movement of labor? On what principle? Both ways or just to Britain?

Just to Britain. They still want to own a nice little gite in France or a Spanish Villa in the sun.
Don't ask me why, we need workers and the governments own department of Statistics published data that prove immigrants are a nett benefit to our economy. That did not stop the MP Gove lying about it on telly and doubling down when called out on his lie.

[birlinn]

Total male chicken-up.
I hope, and it's a slim chance, that people can vote in a second referendum now they can see the total mess facing them. A petition now has over a million signatures, including mine.

[Peerie Maa]

A few things we can assume, apart from Macron being a twat.

1. Theresa May’s deal isn’t going to get through Parliament (its a stinking dog turd of an aggreement) because of the last minute capitulation on the Irish backstop. We were expecting someone not to be pleased, but her deal offends everyone.

2. The DUP wont force a general election, as they are currently empowered king makers, but they can force a change in leadership (policy direction) by not voting with the government. The Conservatives dont want a general election, so she’ll have to go.

3. The MP’s and probably not the EU are not going to let a dissorderly no deal brexit occur in March.

I’d say May’s deal will lose by a large number. She’ll try and get a modification, but it will too little too late. There will be a move to make her resign after the vote before Christmas. The only position I can see a majority of MP’s on all sides would vote for now, would be a Norway plus aggreement in EFTA. DUP, Scots, Con and Labour have said they would vote for it. It will reduce payments, avoid border issues, gets us out of fisheries and farming. Its not perfect we have to accept free movement, but it keeps the most people happy with regard to a vote in the Commons.

Or we could admit that it was a stupid idea from the get go and decide to stay in with the status quo. After all it is always better to be in the tent p!$$ing out than outside p!$$ing in.

[Edward Pearson]

Except that its not the status quo is it Nick.

We both know the EU is ramping up integration towards a USE. Payments are increasing. Centralisation of fiscal policy etc.
There is a political question there that has barely been asked a cross Europe’s population.

There is no argument that we can change policy from within the EU, it did not transpire over the last 40 years, and we have no longer a veto, simply get out voted.

There is no other free trade area in the world that insists on acceptance and aquiensance of formation into a single country anywhere else on Earth.

[AndyG]

Care to comment on what it means for an island nations mentality to be governed by officials that they did not elect? Do you want less democracy, less say in your governance? Even less than you already have?

Don't forget, for one moment, you are addressing an English-born, SNP card-carrying Scottish Nationalist, who, since I moved north in 1993, has seen precisely what the effect of officials I've not elected have been capable of for 25 years.

The EU is, politically, the greatest invention of the last century. A trading partnership of over 510 million people, covering a continent whose history has been of war and aggression. Sh!t, one of my Mum's first memories is witnessing the fire-bombing of Coventry. Do you not think that, in a world of Trump, Putin and Xi, a competent bastion of flippin' sanity is worthwhile?

Andy

[obscured by clouds]

he only position I can see a majority of MP’s on all sides would vote for now, would be a Norway plus aggreement in EFTA. DUP, Scots, Con and Labour have said they would vote for it and EU is happiy with that. It will reduce payments, avoid border issues, gets us out of fisheries and farming. Its not perfect we have to accept free movement - buisness wont mind that, but it keeps the most people happy with regard to a vote in the Commons and can be done quickly with the EU with an article 50 extention probably. Technically the referendum will have been met - we would have left the EU.

The Sun and Daily Wail seems to be backing this scenario.

[Osborne Russell]

The Sun and Daily Wail seems to be backing this scenario.

All these halfway measures, I don't get it, and I suppose this is my question: if the argument is loss of sovereignty, what is there to compromise on? Why the fancy pants? We can let go a little sovereignty if the price is right? I can't imagine the people approving such a deal.

[birlinn]

What does 'sovereignty' actually buy? or add to the GDP?
We will still have a sovereign anyway.

[Osborne Russell]

Just to Britain. They still want to own a nice little gite in France or a Spanish Villa in the sun.
Don't ask me why, we need workers and the governments own department of Statistics published data that prove immigrants are a nett benefit to our economy. That did not stop the MP Gove lying about it on telly and doubling down when called out on his lie.

Isn't it somewhat unrealistic to expect it to work only in one direction? Why would the rest of Europe agree?

Wouldn't this mean that the ex-pats are remainers? Are they?

[Sky Blue]

the EU is a trading partnership

It's a Hell of a lot more than that. Parliament, courts, bodies, departments, committees. It's a bloated colossus.

The Sun and the Daily Mail seem to be on board

Yeah. Even the Express is softening, and starting to run fear scenarios. The moment Desmond sold the paper I knew it'd go wobbly the first moment it could.

The EU has prevented war in Europe

No. America has prevented war in Europe.

[birlinn]

It's a Hell of a lot more than that. Parliament, courts, bodies, departments, committees. It's a bloated colossus.



Yeah. Even the Express is softening, and starting to run fear scenarios. The moment Desmond sold the paper I knew it'd go wobbly the first moment it could.



No. America has prevented war in Europe.

If only America had prevented war in the middle east.