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Thread: Update me on Brexit

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Sure looks like that to me. I never see arguments that the EU should do this or that, only that Britain should leave. That implies that there is some incurable structural defect. But what?
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  2. #142
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    . That implies that there is some incurable structural defect. But what?
    Goes by the name of Mario Draghi

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Meanwhile, back in the Village ...
    Lib Dem MP Stephen Lloyd has quit the party's group in Parliament so he can vote for Theresa May's Brexit deal.
    The Eastbourne MP says he remains a member of the party, but wants to keep his promise to voters to respect the result of the referendum.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46470414

    Now, Mr Lloyd is either a very principled politician in that he respects the majority view of his constituents or it's a smart career move that may help him keep his seat in the forthcoming General Election.

    Nick

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by NickW View Post
    Meanwhile, back in the Village ...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46470414

    Now, Mr Lloyd is either a very principled politician in that he respects the majority view of his constituents or it's a smart career move that may help him keep his seat in the forthcoming General Election.

    Nick
    Is he certain about that?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  5. #145
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Time for that second referendum- the will of the people has changed.

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by NickW View Post
    Now, Mr Lloyd is either a very principled politician in that he respects the majority view of his constituents or it's a smart career move that may help him keep his seat in the forthcoming General Election.

    Nick
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  7. #147
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    Time for that second referendum- the will of the people has changed.
    Mrs May will fight that for as long as she is in Downing Street.Which might lead to certain conclusions.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    Time for that second referendum- the will of the people has changed.
    That is like saying there should be a re-run of the last Presidential election - the will of the people has changed (perhaps).

    So should there be reruns of elections/referendums until one sector is satisfied with the vote outcome?

    Was there a referendum to join the EU?

    IIRC there was a referendum in 1975 to join the Common Market, but never a referendum to join the United Sates of Europe.
    Last edited by Rum_Pirate; 12-06-2018 at 05:55 PM.
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Mrs May will fight that for as long as she is in Downing Street.Which might lead to certain conclusions.
    Gone on Wednesday? I could see that.

    Andy
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  10. #150
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    David G
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    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

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  11. #151
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    That is like saying there should be a re-run of the last Presidential election - the will of the people has changed (perhaps).

    So should there be reruns of elections/referendums until one sector is satisfied with the vote outcome?

    Was there a referendum to join the EU?

    IIRC there was a referendum in 1975 to join the Common Market, but never a referendum to join the United Sates of Europe.
    Sweden has not had a prime minister or functioning government since the election, the longest period in history. All the political blocks are trying to avoid having another election, as they know doing so will only help increase support for the left wing party they are trying to keep out. That is politics not giving people the say they voted for.

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    That is like saying there should be a re-run of the last Presidential election - the will of the people has changed (perhaps).
    The Sacred US Constitution, pickled in aspic as it is does not allow it, short of impeachment.

    So should there be reruns of elections/referendums until one sector is satisfied with the vote outcome?
    Loaded question. There should be a rerun if the electorate realises that they were conned by a bunch of incompetents and demands one. That referendum will be voted on by a fully informed set of voters (Sun readers excepted) and will deliver a result that should be relied on.

    Was there a referendum to join the EU?

    IIRC there was a referendum in 1975 to join the Common Market, but never a referendum to join the United Sates of Europe.
    The UK were involved in the debates on the evolution of the EU since 1975 through the democratic processes carried out by their elected representatives, so there is zero mileage in that argument.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #153
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit






    Wow Nick ! May is TOAST !

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    It is not that simple. Link to the full article below. YouGov has ignored the Northern Ireland constituencies. I can see why they might ignore the Sinn Fein MPs who do not take their seats in Parliament but the 10 DUP MPs do vote and are critical to the Government's survival. There is in addition 1 independent Unionist.
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-


  15. #155
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by oldcodger View Post
    It is not that simple. Link to the full article below. YouGov has ignored the Northern Ireland constituencies. I can see why they might ignore the Sinn Fein MPs who do not take their seats in Parliament but the 10 DUP MPs do vote and are critical to the Government's survival. There is in addition 1 independent Unionist.
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-

    The party's 10 MPs are expected to vote against the withdrawal deal amid anger over a proposed customs arrangement between the UK and the EU.
    They say it will see Northern Ireland separated economically and politically from England, Scotland and Wales.
    Speaking earlier during a debate on the Brexit deal in the Commons, DUP MP Sammy Wilson said Mrs May had "broken promises" made to her party to protect the constitutional integrity of the UK and if the deal went through it would create "further tensions".
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46461880
    They want the impossible, they want negotiations with the EU restarted.
    Whether that puts them in the "No deal" or "Remain" camp is impossible to tell.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #156
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    It puts them in both camps, Nick. NI politics was ever thus: totally inscrutable.

    I still like the alternative (crazy at first glance) arrangement, mentioned by some, that a hard border should be made at the English/Scottish border. NI and Scotland, both Remain areas, trading with the EU on EU terms, while England and Wales (Leave) sort out their position. The border with England has two main roads, a couple of rail lines, and far fewer minor roads than NI and Ireland has. It would be far easier to monitor.

    Andy
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  17. #157
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Nice idea, Andy, but …..

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    ... but?

    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    ...but I can't see it happening.

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Can I be the border guard at Penton bridge.?


    Please.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  21. #161
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit


  22. #162
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    Can I be the border guard at Penton bridge.?


    Please.
    'Course you can. Is the pub any good? (I grew up near there).

    Trump would love the idea of a Scottish/English hard border: we've got a bought-and-paid-for wall already in place.

    Andy
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  23. #163
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    : we've got a bought-and-paid-for wall already in place.

    Andy
    Didnt seem to work that well. Good idea though.

  24. #164
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    'Course you can. Is the pub any good? (I grew up near there).

    Trump would love the idea of a Scottish/English hard border: we've got a bought-and-paid-for wall already in place.

    Andy
    All for it!
    If you use Hadrian's wall, Scotland gains a lot of territory.

  25. #165
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    ... but?

    All of the Norn Iron Prods would start screaming "But we want to remain British, . .











    . .except when we don't!"
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  26. #166
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    'Course you can. Is the pub any good? (I grew up near there).

    Trump would love the idea of a Scottish/English hard border: we've got a bought-and-paid-for wall already in place.

    Andy
    Where's the pub? - Canonbie or Newcastleton?
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  27. #167
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    An interesting piece to read:

    [...]
    Analysis of the forces that led to Brexit usually looks at issues over too short a time span. The English may once have been confident of their own nationality but this does not mean they were as tolerant of others as they sometimes like to suppose. Punch cartoons in the 19th century showed the Irish as murderous sub-humans. The Aliens Act of 1905, brought in by a Conservative government with an eye to winning votes in a general election the following year, aimed to exclude Jews fleeing Russian pogroms. A century later, the Conservative Party spent years trying to trump Tony Blair’s ability to win successive elections by experimenting with different types of dog-whistle anti-immigrant rhetoric, often combined with demonisation of the EU.

    Conservative politicians such as David Cameron, whose career was to be destroyed by the outcome of the 2016 Brexit referendum, were highlighting the migrant threat a year before the vote, warning of “a swarm of people, coming from the Mediterranean, seeking a better life, wanting to come to Britain”. This showed real chutzpah, or cheek, since Cameron played a central role in launching the Nato war to overthrow Gaddafi in 2011 that turned Libya into a land of warlords and predatory militias, opening the way for migrants from North Africa to try to reach Europe from Libya in overcrowded boats and dinghies, often dying in the attempt.


    A further feature of English nationalism will make it difficult to manoeuvre during the coming years of preoccupation with European relations. Small nations get used to inferior status and playing a weaker hand against opponents who hold most of the cards. British diplomats understand this, but a large part of public opinion in Britain, as in other former imperial nations, sees compromise as a sign of inexplicable weakness of will or as a treacherous stab in the back.

    [... Patrick Cockburn, The Independent, https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8672691.html ]
    Last edited by heimfried; 12-08-2018 at 06:47 AM. Reason: spelling
    Gruß, Günter

  28. #168
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by heimfried View Post
    An interesting piece to read:
    I think it is a very shrewd picture of modern Britain. We have all sorts of demons and monsters whose existence we deny but which can be roused by a dog whistle...
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  29. #169
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I think it is a very shrewd picture of modern Britain. We have all sorts of demons and monsters whose existence we deny but which can be roused by a dog whistle...
    So, we really AREN’T exceptional?

    Peace,
    Robert

  30. #170
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    So, we really AREN’T exceptional?

    Peace,
    Robert
    Only the guns and lack of healthcare.

  31. #171
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    Only the guns and lack of healthcare.
    Oh. I was joking. Trying to be light hearted.

    Not looking for a dagger plunged into my heart.

    Peace,
    Robert

  32. #172
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Oh dear Rob; please don't take it personally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    Oh dear Rob; please don't take it personally.
    No, no. I don’t take it as a swipe at ME.

    It’s just, as it sit here, broken and unable to work a “real” job, pining for my dead friend, dealing with my kids and their dead friend, this particular statement hit very close to home.

    Peace,
    Debbie Downer

  34. #174
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    So, we really AREN’T exceptional?

    Peace,
    Robert
    It may be the other way round, Rob. Everyone except for the Russians, the Americans and the British had the exceptionalism knocked out of them by the events of 1937 to 1945 (I’m starting with the Marco Polo Bridge Incident in July 1937 both out of respect to the Chinese and because that led to Pearl Harbor)

    British Exceptionalism is particularly virulent.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  35. #175
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    Default Re: Update me on Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    It may be the other way round, Rob. Everyone except for the Russians, the Americans and the British had the exceptionalism knocked out of them by the events of 1937 to 1945 (I’m starting with the Marco Polo Bridge Incident in July 1937 both out of respect to the Chinese and because that led to Pearl Harbor)

    British Exceptionalism is particularly virulent.

    I think that’s the fundamental problem, nowadays, Andrew. If I may call you Andrew?

    The mindset of Us v. Them, which at base allows for the notion of exceptionalism, worked fine when we could pretend there was an Us and a Them.

    What to do, though, when all the Usses And Thems are no longer separate, but are actually in partnership? How to feel superior to a, now equal as far as business is concerned, colleague? Because, as the world shrinks, we will continue to be forced to deal with the fact we are all on the same team, and all part of the same race.

    It seems to be a race we are collectively losing, too. And we continue to expend energy on antiquated ideas and notions born in the era of actual cannon fodder.

    Peace,
    Just Plain Old Robert

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