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Thread: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

  1. #1
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    Default Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Happy Thankgiving everyone.
    Raging argument here about the best way to back a club-footed jib when hove to. I lash back to the shrouds, but am getting a tisk-tisk.
    Anyone?

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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Thames barges use a "bowline" to hold the forestaysail aback. It is spliced around the ford shroud, goes through the lowest reef cringle on the leech, back round a shroud and belayed.
    Basically as you describe.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    The shrouds on my Somes Sound 12.5 are too far aft to be of service in backing the club. I installed a pad-eye on the foredeck, both sides, just inside the toe rail. I clip a strap of webbing to the boom end at the sheet block then to the pad-eye. The length of the webbing is quickly adjustable via a plastic quick-release buckle. When I want to resume sailing, all I have to do is squeeze the buckle to release the jib. I usually sail alone so performing this procedure quickly and easily is paramount for me. Once I'm back on track I secure the helm and I go forward to retrieve the webbing which is now in two parts. It sounds more complicated than it really is.

    While we're on the subject of club jibs... has anyone got a nifty way to roller furl one?

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    It

    depends

    on

    the

    boat.

    Nothing works all the time and almost anything will work sometime.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    I'd run it like a boom preventer myself, because that what it is in effect. Ie....on its own line you can release from the cockpit just in case that Carver is running down on you on autopilot.

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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    I'd run it like a boom preventer myself, because that what it is in effect. Ie....on its own line you can release from the cockpit just in case that Carver is running down on you on autopilot.
    That's a scary thought!
    That said, best case would be as you say, lead a line to the helmsman's station.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Like Ian sez...
    But I find the best way to slow or stop a boat, in general, is to sheet in too tight and pinch up.
    In other words ...go to windward.
    Backing jib/staysl....makes a boat MORE lively, not less.
    Like doin the hokey pokey on a boat.

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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Sounds like the OP was looking for easy ways to heave to..not so much just trying to stall the boat. Being a ditch sailor I rarely get to do that, but there have been times

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    We don't have a club jib, but rolling into a hove to by tacking or gybing and leaving the jib sheeted as it was is a standard fush catching manoeuvre for us.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    I rarely heave-to in conditions as strenuous as a Near Gale (Force 7, 28-33 kts) because the waves make the boat less stabile. Not really a storm tactic for me. I routinely use heaving-to for various breaks - serious nav work, bladder or bowel relief, food or coffee prep, simple rest.

    Generally I heave-to about as tight to the wind as a hard beat, four points off the wind. At that point the jib does not need to be backed. Just ease the main, perhaps with a reef beyond what you'd had before or even dropping the main, and put the helm down. I look to settling in to fore reaching at about the same pace as leeway so I net out at a stately square drift.

    This makes a really great posture for watching a boat race. Start a little off from the pin end of the line.

    Depending on the boat, you can evolve heaving-to into a useful trick. Granuaile, being long and skinny, created perspective problems for the helm. When a target, like mooring buoy, vanished under the bow, it was still more than ten fathoms off. Hard to single-hand a mooring. But if I dropped the main and jib, centered the helm, sheeted the mizzen fairly tight and the fore a bit looser, I could then steer by mizzen position. Pushing it to center forced the bow off, filling the fore and we'd fore reach a bit more. Easing the forestaysail and she'd hunt up stalling as the fore lost power. I could use this for a very controlled square drift approaching the mooring sort of sideways and very relaxed.

    If you heave-to a lot, it gets easier and easier, more and more useful.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    I don't know a way to back a club jib that doesn't involve going forward and using a bowline. Mirelle has a boom staysail but to heave to I took it off the boom.

    Am an enthusiast for heaving to. Much depends upon the boat. To my delight the big Nic heaves to very nicely despite the fin and skeg underwater profile.

    As Ian says you should try to heave to as an ordinary everyday manoeuvre. I don't know about the States but in Britain a sailing fishing vessel trawls, and dredges for oysters, in the hove-to position. A Colchester smack uses bowlines as Nick describes for Thames barges.

    The usual wisdom in heaving to in bad weather is to bring the sail area inboard before heaving to, so a trysail and staysail are better for heaving to than a reefed mainsail and part rolled jib. One should aim to fore reach at a knot, or so, rather than stopping dead, because this reduces the risk of the boat beings set back on her rudder, and if you can also go sideways so as to make a " square drift" (in effect, beam reaching at about one knot in the hove to position) this leaves a slick to windward of the boat and you are less likely to get seas on deck.

    But I accept the view that there is a limit to heaving to and that in extremely bad weather one should try to steer downwind under bare poles, trailing warps. I have not experienced such conditions myself (yet).
    Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 11-23-2018 at 12:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    The shrouds on my Somes Sound 12.5 are too far aft to be of service in backing the club. I installed a pad-eye on the foredeck, both sides, just inside the toe rail. I clip a strap of webbing to the boom end at the sheet block then to the pad-eye. The length of the webbing is quickly adjustable via a plastic quick-release buckle. When I want to resume sailing, all I have to do is squeeze the buckle to release the jib. I usually sail alone so performing this procedure quickly and easily is paramount for me. Once I'm back on track I secure the helm and I go forward to retrieve the webbing which is now in two parts. It sounds more complicated than it really is.

    While we're on the subject of club jibs... has anyone got a nifty way to roller furl one?

    Jeff
    Actually, yes... There is a drawing in FB Cooke. I'll try to photograph it and post it.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorB View Post
    Happy Thankgiving everyone.
    Raging argument here about the best way to back a club-footed jib when hove to. I lash back to the shrouds, but am getting a tisk-tisk.
    Anyone?
    Does it sheet to a traveller on a horse, or to a block on the centre line?
    If to a traveller on a horse, rig a line to port and to starboard through turning blocks at the ends of the horse. Then you can either hold the sail aback or allow it to be sheeted in tight or full for running by controlling the two lines.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Does it sheet to a traveller on a horse, or to a block on the centre line?
    If to a traveller on a horse, rig a line to port and to starboard through turning blocks at the ends of the horse. Then you can either hold the sail aback or allow it to be sheeted in tight or full for running by controlling the two lines.
    Sheets to a traveller.
    The topping lift(s) for my club are short lines with snap hooks hanging off the port and stbd shrouds. To heave to, I sheet in, go on deck, snap the topping lift on the jib boom and tack. Works fine. It is backed more this way than controlling the traveller. I might just do what you describe (in the spring) - I hadn't thought of that - thanks!

    Others here are fans of pad eyes rather than shrouds.

    It's a 9 ton long(ish) keel gaff sloop.

    *"here" meaning dinner table

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post

    While we're on the subject of club jibs... has anyone got a nifty way to roller furl one?

    Jeff
    Here we are.



    FB Cooke, I'm quoting from the estimable Forumite Dick Wynne's collected edition of "Cruising Hints", Lodestar Books, 2011, ISBN 978-1-907206-01-6

    at page 345:

    "Some years ago I devised a method by which the Wykeham Martin furling gear can be used in conjunction with a boom foresail. It is extremely simple, the only extra gear required being a sheave in the boom and a double block at the tack. Instead of the clew of the sail being lashed to the boom in the uual way, it is fitted with a clew-line, which leads over the sheave in the boom and then forward through the double block at the tack, from where it is led to the cockpit through a fairllead attached to one of the chainplates, or on the deck. The sheet leads over the other sheave of the double block at the tack and aft through a fairlead on the other side of the boat.

    "To set the sail, one hauls on the clew line, slacking up the rolling line, and to furl it one hauls on the rolling line, slacking up on the clewline. The sheet must be made fasr before setting or furling to prevent the boom lifting. The advantages of being able to set or furl a boom foresail without leaving the helm are so obvious that it is not necessary to enlarge upon them."

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorB View Post
    Sheets to a traveller.
    The topping lift(s) for my club are short lines with snap hooks hanging off the port and stbd shrouds. To heave to, I sheet in, go on deck, snap the topping lift on the jib boom and tack. Works fine. It is backed more this way than controlling the traveller. I might just do what you describe (in the spring) - I hadn't thought of that - thanks!

    Others here are fans of pad eyes rather than shrouds.

    It's a 9 ton long(ish) keel gaff sloop.

    *"here" meaning dinner table
    No wukkas, I borrowed the idea from a main sheet traveller, but I have seen it on a working boat forstaysail on a wire horse.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    I knew a guy who used almost exactly that setup - his addition was a fixed line from the clew end of the boom to the upper side of the swivel - this supports the aft end of the boom when the sail is furled...
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    On "Red Witch" we have a club footed working jib that sheets to a bronze bar traveler. Often in tight quarters I make use of backing the jib to spin the boat, on its heel or in a short distance. This set up has a preventer line that is rigged to both ends of the traveler that lead aft and are tended by jamb cleats. It works fast and is very handy. It is much easier than sending a man forward to back the jib! I regret that I cannot post photos at this time as I am away from the boat. I trust that the description will suffice!
    Jay

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Don't belay things to the shrouds! Putting a bend in the wire and then cycling it through a gale is a good way to fatigue your rigging and bring the mast down! This can happen in a surprisingly short time. It can also put a massive load in the weather shroud and could cause failure of fittings in the more normal way.

    Fatigue resistance is another good reason for dyneema shrouds btw..

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Don't belay things to the shrouds! Putting a bend in the wire and then cycling it through a gale is a good way to fatigue your rigging and bring the mast down! This can happen in a surprisingly short time. It can also put a massive load in the weather shroud and could cause failure of fittings in the more normal way.

    Fatigue resistance is another good reason for dyneema shrouds btw..
    "Up to a point, Lord Copper!"

    I certainly agree in the case of a Bermuda rig with shrouds taken to bottlescrews. In the case of a gaff rig with lanyards, there will be no harm done and indeed it has been done for centuries.
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Here we are.



    FB Cooke, I'm quoting from the estimable Forumite Dick Wynne's collected edition of "Cruising Hints", Lodestar Books, 2011, ISBN 978-1-907206-01-6

    at page 345:

    "Some years ago I devised a method by which the Wykeham Martin furling gear can be used in conjunction with a boom foresail. It is extremely simple, the only extra gear required being a sheave in the boom and a double block at the tack. Instead of the clew of the sail being lashed to the boom in the uual way, it is fitted with a clew-line, which leads over the sheave in the boom and then forward through the double block at the tack, from where it is led to the cockpit through a fairllead attached to one of the chainplates, or on the deck. The sheet leads over the other sheave of the double block at the tack and aft through a fairlead on the other side of the boat.

    "To set the sail, one hauls on the clew line, slacking up the rolling line, and to furl it one hauls on the rolling line, slacking up on the clewline. The sheet must be made fasr before setting or furling to prevent the boom lifting. The advantages of being able to set or furl a boom foresail without leaving the helm are so obvious that it is not necessary to enlarge upon them."


    Thank you for posting this, Andrew. It provides great food for thought and consideration.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Don't belay things to the shrouds! Putting a bend in the wire and then cycling it through a gale is a good way to fatigue your rigging and bring the mast down! This can happen in a surprisingly short time. It can also put a massive load in the weather shroud and could cause failure of fittings in the more normal way.

    Fatigue resistance is another good reason for dyneema shrouds btw..

    Shrouds CAN get buggered up this way, or they can work just fine.
    Most any size gaffer should use "sweat hooks". In my case , they are simply chocks fit vertically.
    Then ,at the pinrail, I make the throat hlyd fast to the OUTSIDE and the peak to the inside.The different pulls cancel each other out. A simple trick.
    Once up, the throat needs little to no adjustment, the peak gets tweaked regularly.
    Here, the peak coil is piled on the throat pin,to make peak adjustment easier.
    (blue tape marks the sweet spot, another simple trick)
    Same goes for jib and staysl on the other side, staysl cleats off outside, jib inside.
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 11-25-2018 at 02:45 PM.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    "Up to a point, Lord Copper!"
    I had to look up that one. I like it.

    to clarify, my club topping lift is cowhitched to the pinrail, not the shroud itself. Point taken about side loads and belaying directly to shrouds, hence the dinner "discussion".

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Halyard load on pinrails seized to the shrouds is not so bad, as the load is in line with the shroud and a few hundred extra pounds of halyard load is barely noticeable to the shrouds. Twisting/fatiguing over the long term is still a concern on some boats.

    Backing a staysail by sheeting to the weather shroud is a whole 'nuther thing. The weather shroud is likely to be bar tight in the kind of conditions that warrant heaving to, even on a loose gaffer. Putting a side load into a straight stay has the effect of multiplying the load many times. There just isn't any horizontal component to the shroud to react the horizontal loads until it has deflected considerably.

    I would not be surprised if a 500 lb sheet load in a gust could give several thousand pounds of increased tension on the shroud by pulling sideways! Instead, I would put an eye bolt at the deck level, then the 500 lb load will not have any means of multiplying itself.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    yer right , I totally flubbed that one.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Backing a club jib - Thanksgiving table talk

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Halyard load on pinrails seized to the shrouds is not so bad, as the load is in line with the shroud and a few hundred extra pounds of halyard load is barely noticeable to the shrouds. Twisting/fatiguing over the long term is still a concern on some boats.

    Backing a staysail by sheeting to the weather shroud is a whole 'nuther thing. The weather shroud is likely to be bar tight in the kind of conditions that warrant heaving to, even on a loose gaffer. Putting a side load into a straight stay has the effect of multiplying the load many times. There just isn't any horizontal component to the shroud to react the horizontal loads until it has deflected considerably.

    I would not be surprised if a 500 lb sheet load in a gust could give several thousand pounds of increased tension on the shroud by pulling sideways! Instead, I would put an eye bolt at the deck level, then the 500 lb load will not have any means of multiplying itself.
    The pins on the sheerpoles of a gaff rigged boat with deadeyes and lanyards are for hanging off the halyard cleats on so they are well above any water going over the deck; they are NOT for belaying any halyard or lift to. Think about it. You belay the halyards to a pinrail secured to the deck and bolted through either the sailing beams or (better) their lodging knees.
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