Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst ... 23
Results 71 to 100 of 100

Thread: Great Design Features in Boats

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    On the river, Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    4,748

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    thanks, John, much appreciated, of course; but as my wife would no doubt be reminding me right now if she were reading this over my shoulder, it's not a sailing vacation we're after! (Even if some of us might be inclined that way...)

    I'll be keenly interested in seeing Long Steps and Sei in person for sure. The catching up with a friend I haven't seen in a few years will be the best part, though.

    Tom
    I appreciate your position, just pulling your leg ever so gently.
    With luck though we can take Kairos, ( the ship) across to the big bird sanctuary about 10 miles from here and do a walk ashore to see the native birdlife close up.

    A week and a day, see you soon.

    John

    BTW, sailing, if we were inlined that way? Did you realise that monohull sailors are more inclined than catamaran sailers?
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,895

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    New Zealand is lovely, Tom. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I'll be there again for a few weeks in late December/January myself.

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,309

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Tom arrives here at my place in less than two weeks, I am very sure that we're going to have some really interesting discussions on this subject, as I write I'm taking a few minutes break from working on Long Steps, which is a whole different set of compromises from the usual sail and oar cruiser, but then she's intended for a whole different purpose. There are in fact at least two further along with their build of that design than I am, and its quite possible that I'll be finding out how the design performs from one or other of them before I get mine in the water. But I;m trying to catch up.

    John Welsford
    Don't doubt for a moment your clients will be very happy John, That will be an interesting discussion after a couple of splashes.

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    On the river, Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    4,748

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    Don't doubt for a moment your clients will be very happy John, That will be an interesting discussion after a couple of splashes.
    I'm very much looking forward to hearing what they've got to say. James McMullen will be here a few days after Tom Pamperin arrives ( we'll have to put a bit more bouyancy under the island to stop it sinking with both of them here) and I'm keen to hear what those two have to say.

    So when are you coming to visit/

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,309

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    I'm very much looking forward to hearing what they've got to say. James McMullen will be here a few days after Tom Pamperin arrives ( we'll have to put a bit more bouyancy under the island to stop it sinking with both of them here) and I'm keen to hear what those two have to say.

    So when are you coming to visit/

    John Welsford
    Appreciate the thought re New Zealand.
    James and Tom visiting at the same time . . . ?!
    Therein, broadly speaking, will be represented 3 highly respectable schools of thought - Welsford/Oughtread/Kurlyko. And of course other designers whose work the two and three of you have experience on the water with. That would add several more names. I've seen one of the posse migrate from a Kurlyko to Oughtread style arrangement, and I've heard another of the posse express interest in moving away from an open Oughtread arrangement to something, more like a Wellsford. Always felt it would be a good investment to study, with respect, a set of your plans John.
    Eric

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,032

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    No, not at the same time! I've carefully managed my visit to avoid having to face "the James" in person. I did that once. It was horrible. He made me steer with a push-pull tiller, and insisted on having this tiny little sail at the back of the boat. That just seemed too weird to me.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,895

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Agreed. That guy James has some really weird preferences. Definitely shouldn't be used as a role model--a warning, maybe.

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    730

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    I have two friends with CY's who will switch from push-pull sticks to ordinary helm again and I had encouraged them to a pp thing. Only one CY with pp left I think. Donald Duck used to go to Marrakech in situations like these.

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    11,906

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Cockpit drains often have a maddening habit of back flowing and creating a lake on the lee side of the cockpit well. This often leads to wet shoes, sox, boots and pant legs which, can be uncomfortable for those who are on watch in that area of the boat. I usually design cockpits that are slightly lower forward than aft and have drains on both ends of the well which, doubles the drainage efficiency. The forward low end keeps most of the water away from the feet of the helmsman and keeps the weight of some of the water closer to the center of gravity of the hull. Crossing the drain lines athwart ships, when possible, basically eliminates back flow through the drains. Water slopping back and forth on the lee side of the cockpit well is not something that makes for comfort on a cold day or night!
    Jay

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    On the river, Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    4,748

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    Appreciate the thought re New Zealand.
    James and Tom visiting at the same time . . . ?!
    Therein, broadly speaking, will be represented 3 highly respectable schools of thought - Welsford/Oughtread/Kurlyko. And of course other designers whose work the two and three of you have experience on the water with. That would add several more names. I've seen one of the posse migrate from a Kurlyko to Oughtread style arrangement, and I've heard another of the posse express interest in moving away from an open Oughtread arrangement to something, more like a Wellsford. Always felt it would be a good investment to study, with respect, a set of your plans John.
    Eric
    Thank you for the implied compliment there Eric. much appreciated.
    I rarely get the opportunity to sit and talk with people such as yourself, James, Tom and others with experience in both use and design in the field of serious open boat cruising. I miss that, and am very much looking forward to those two visiting.
    I'm always open to constructive criticism, and new ideas.

    On the steering thing, I'm drawing a boat that will have a whipstaff connected to the rudder with a power boat push pull steering cable. I have to get the movement around an aft cabin that has a mizzen on top, and the customer doesnt want to have a wheel taking up space in the mid cockpit so the whipstaff is a reasonable solution to the many problems that this layout poses.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  11. #81
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,309

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Thank you for the implied compliment there Eric. much appreciated.
    I rarely get the opportunity to sit and talk with people such as yourself, James, Tom and others with experience in both use and design in the field of serious open boat cruising. I miss that, and am very much looking forward to those two visiting.
    I'm always open to constructive criticism, and new ideas.

    On the steering thing, I'm drawing a boat that will have a whipstaff connected to the rudder with a power boat push pull steering cable. I have to get the movement around an aft cabin that has a mizzen on top, and the customer doesnt want to have a wheel taking up space in the mid cockpit so the whipstaff is a reasonable solution to the many problems that this layout poses.

    John Welsford
    You are most welcome John.
    A whipstaff, push pull cable, cool. The engineering bits are so interesting.

  12. #82
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Shubenacadie NS
    Posts
    4,312

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Whipstaff.... I wonder if those push pull sticks to get around the mizzen on a yawl might be considered a whipstaff of sort. They are used to push and pull the (short) tiller forward and aft rather than port to stbd. In other words, the tiller mounted to the rudder post is set athwartships rather than fore and aft but otherwise, it's a hinged stick that actuates it...... What do small boat folks who use one of those steering setups refer to it as? Sounds very much like a whipstaff to me.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  13. #83
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,032

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    It's generally called a push-pull tiller around here ("here" meaning the WBF). Sometimes I've heard it referred to as a Norwegian style push-pull tiller.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  14. #84
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    730

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    A whipstaff stands vertical as I know them, so the helmsmans position is limited, but with a cable, never thought about it. Interesting.
    But I would like to know why a push/pull stick works in some boats fine and not so good in others. I like the simplicity of the latter.

  15. #85
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Deepest Darkest Wales
    Posts
    19,956

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    I wondered when the Atalanta would get a mention....

    Previous similar discussion http://forum.woodenboat.com/archive/...p/t-73774.html
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  16. #86
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,435

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    These have been used for centuries in Norweigian small boats; the same action is used as in the older side mounted rudders.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  17. #87
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    279

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Pardon my asking, but what has a push-pull tiller to do with "Great Design Features in Boats"?
    -It's historic, of course, but today there are modern design solutions which allow to have a central mizzen mast AND a port-starboard tiller.

  18. #88
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,032

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    I believe the strongest argument in favor of a push-pull is that with such a long tiller, the helmsman in a small boat can get their weight far enough forward to maintain proper trim. And also, a traditional tiller sweeps back and forth, rendering the space underneath it somewhat unusable--again, not a problem with a push-pull.

    But I myself don't like them. I really really like the direct feedback a traditional tiller provides with its lateral motion. Just not the same thing at all with a fore-and-aft motion of a push-pull. So, whatever advantages they offer, they also mean giving up something I love. So I won't use them.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  19. #89
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    279

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I believe the strongest argument in favor of a push-pull is that with such a long tiller, the helmsman in a small boat can get their weight far enough forward to maintain proper trim. And also, a traditional tiller sweeps back and forth, rendering the space underneath it somewhat unusable--again, not a problem with a push-pull.
    Tom
    For the first, there are tiller extensions, for the second, there are hinged tillers.
    So, again, what's the point for push-pull tillers in a thread about "Great Design Features in Boats"?

  20. #90
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,435

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    It's the simplest way to get around a mizzen mast. There are other ways, but all are more complex.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  21. #91
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Pleasant Valley NS Canada
    Posts
    16,053

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Great Design Features in Boats:

    1.) cleanly laid out cable and piping runs with serviced items in accessible locations
    2.) engines installed with adequate space around them for access to service points
    3.) interiors laid out ergonomically with adequate, strong, handholds
    4.) clear visibility all around from the helm
    5.) properly sized propellers
    6.) effective rudders
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  22. #92
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,243

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Great Design Features in Boats:

    1.) cleanly laid out cable and piping runs with serviced items in accessible locations
    2.) engines installed with adequate space around them for access to service points
    3.) interiors laid out ergonomically with adequate, strong, handholds
    4.) clear visibility all around from the helm
    5.) properly sized propellers
    6.) effective rudders

    No question about all of that. But I can't help but keep returning to the people/ergonomics issues. The owner/skipper wants that engine room clean and easy to service, for example, but his guests for the day or weekend or longer don't really care much about that. They want comfortable places to sit without being constantly told to watch their heads or keep their feet off that line; they want a boat that's reassuring when the wind and waves pick up; and they want shade or protection from spray and rain available. Well, guests can want a lot of things. If they're on board for several days, they want a big galley and "bathrooms" that at least remind them of what they use at home. They want, want, want....

    It's easy for the experienced boater to ignore or laugh off these namby-pamby considerations. But if said boater wants his partner or family or good friends to enjoy the boating as much as he or she does, then these sorts of features are just as important as the many other factors that make for a good vessel.
    -Dave

  23. #93
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    On the river, Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    4,748

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    No question about all of that. But I can't help but keep returning to the people/ergonomics issues. The owner/skipper wants that engine room clean and easy to service, for example, but his guests for the day or weekend or longer don't really care much about that. They want comfortable places to sit without being constantly told to watch their heads or keep their feet off that line; they want a boat that's reassuring when the wind and waves pick up; and they want shade or protection from spray and rain available. Well, guests can want a lot of things. If they're on board for several days, they want a big galley and "bathrooms" that at least remind them of what they use at home. They want, want, want....

    It's easy for the experienced boater to ignore or laugh off these namby-pamby considerations. But if said boater wants his partner or family or good friends to enjoy the boating as much as he or she does, then these sorts of features are just as important as the many other factors that make for a good vessel.
    Ergonomics are extremely important, and the more extreme the boat or its use, the more important.
    I've drawn a couple of very extreme singlehanded racers, and actually stood the skipper up and measured her, and him ( one for each boat). Designed the cockpit, the control positions, the hatch openings and steps, the footrests and even small things like the backrest angles to suit that particular person. Those boats have the reputation of looking after their skippers, tiring them less than other boats, causing fewer injuries and bruises, and being just plain more comfortable.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  24. #94
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    3,362

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Something I really liked with the Pathfinder, was the "just right" angle of the cockpit coaming, as a back rest. It was a pretty subtle feature, that only became apparent after a couple of hours, when you realised that it was still comfortable.
    And being the cabin version, it had that little spot out of the wind each side, at the front of the cockpit. I think a bit of shelter is very underrated, for those who sail in cooler parts of the world.

    Pete
    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

  25. #95
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,032

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    John Welsford's Sweet Pea design has that same attention to cockpit ergonomic--the angle of the backrest is perfect. It surprised me how much I appreciated that feature when I sailed in a Sweet Pea.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  26. #96
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,032

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    For the first, there are tiller extensions, for the second, there are hinged tillers.
    So, again, what's the point for push-pull tillers in a thread about "Great Design Features in Boats"?
    I suppose it's a matter of preference to some degree. I agree with Ben Fuller that a push-pull is the simplest method of getting around a central mizzen, and it also lets the helmsman get his weight forward--two birds, one stone. A hinged tiller would make the space under the tiller available when not sailing, but a push-pull makes it available anytime.

    So, it does have its advantages. Sounds like you don't think so--but I wouldn't worry too much. I doubt the boat police will come along and make you use one.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  27. #97
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    atascadero, ca.
    Posts
    380

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Hmm, the tiller in my Swampscot Dory has a avabank pin that it pivots up & down on, so one can keep it at a comfortable height. Releasing it drops it down into the ( nearly useless) sculling notch, which centers it and the rudder, at least for a little while.

  28. #98
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Shubenacadie NS
    Posts
    4,312

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    This thread reminds me of a short lived bit in our host's magazine about details in a vessel. It was a quick little image or two and a one or two line explanation of what we were looking at. Took up less than half a page I think I really enjoyed that part of the magazine for the short time it was published.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  29. #99
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,435

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    This thread reminds me of a short lived bit in our host's magazine about details in a vessel. It was a quick little image or two and a one or two line explanation of what we were looking at. Took up less than half a page I think I really enjoyed that part of the magazine for the short time it was published.
    I did some stuff recently in our host's Small Boat Monthly. It got me looking closely at 19th century small boat details and seeing how, besides material availability, the kinds of fastenings used really affect detailing and interior structures on small open boats.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  30. #100
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    947

    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Ben there is a nice book on 'Ships Fastenings' (350 pages!). I read it last Christmas. It's a very good read.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •