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Thread: Great Design Features in Boats

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Alex,

    no doubt I got some things confused. Actually, the inspiration for this were some discussions here about platforms. You and the PNW sail & oar guys seem to have much more negative ideas about platforms than I do. I can't figure out if that's because the Phoenix III platform is so well-placed that it avoids stability issues, or just because I anchor in MUCH more sheltered areas (typically just a couple of feet from shore). Probably the latter is a big part of why platforms work for me.

    As for floorboards--WHAT? Are you telling me you don't bail and sponge while sailing? I do. All the time. Which reminds me of ANOTHER essential design feature for my next post.

    Tom
    We like platforms. Only our platforms always live on the sole. You could also call them floorboards, I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    A Topper rudder.

    http://www.toppersailboats.com/wp-co...21-370x397.jpg

    Probably similar in concept to a Hobie Cat rudder.

  3. #38
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    Smile Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Alex,

    no doubt I got some things confused. Actually, the inspiration for this were some discussions here about platforms. You and the PNW sail & oar guys seem to have much more negative ideas about platforms than I do. I can't figure out if that's because the Phoenix III platform is so well-placed that it avoids stability issues, or just because I anchor in MUCH more sheltered areas (typically just a couple of feet from shore). Probably the latter is a big part of why platforms work for me.

    As for floorboards--WHAT? Are you telling me you don't bail and sponge while sailing? I do. All the time. Which reminds me of ANOTHER essential design feature for my next post.

    Tom
    We definitely anchor more than a couple of feet from shore and sometimes in very exposed anchorages (not by choice). One of the most uncomfortable situations I encountered on my 2017 Inside Passage North trip was at the end of a very long day at the south end of Grenville Channel, around the corner into Coghlan Anchorage. It's a pretty protected anchorage - for a freighter - not so much for an open sail and oar boat. I anchored there anyway as it was nearly dark when I dropped the hook, I was wasted and anyway the wind was supposed to switch around to blow from over the land in the middle of the night. It didn't and I rocked and rolled all night in the ripples coming in from Wright Sound. Slept well cradled on the floorboards but would have not slept at all on a platform above the roll centre.

    Don't generally sponge and bail while sailing in the rain because I don't have to - I have floorboards
    Alex

    "ďHe was unfamiliar with the sea and did not like it much: it was a place that made you cold and wet and sickĒ " Nevil Shute, Trustee From the Toolroom

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    The thread has sort of been about oar and sail because Tom is gushing about his new oar and sail boat. Broadly speaking some people go for more open space, some people go for more segmented space. People have been known to migrate in their preference between one and the other. A whole range of useful details flow from one arrangement or the other.

    Certainly agree on hands off steering. We have our own pushstick gimmick.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    At the link below I have something about the 15' sail and oar boat that I completed in 1978. It is the boat we have used for nearly all of our sailing over the past 40 years including a dozen passages accross the English Channel. For the past few summers we have been living on board it for weeks at a time, this year we were on the Adriatic coasts of Croatia and northern Itally. The boat includes many features that I think are useful, some of which have already been mentioned in this thread. Centreboard, which is balasted with lead, is mostly below the floor of the self draining cockpit so is not in the way for sleeping in the boat or when tacking. But we dont have any clever way to remove the tiller from the rudder, the two are permanently joined - why not? One feature that has proved valuable for sleeping on board when the boat is dried out is the flat underside that has two deep runners, like very shallow bilge keels. This allows the boat to dry out upright and stable with some protection against smallish rocks on the seabed. Dont know why that is not seen more often.

    http://www.hostellerssailingclub.org...y-for-cruising
    Last edited by John Perry; 11-21-2018 at 07:59 AM.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    The issues associated with centerboards and their trunks can often be cured by locating the trunk off-center, either by incorporating it into a bench seat as seen in John Welsford's SCAMP design, or under a side deck, as in Phil Bolger's BIRDWATCHER design.
    Off-center boards appeared earlier in some market gunners' boats on the New Jersey shore shown in Howard Chapelle's _American Small Sailing Craft_. While it may offend our preference for symmetry, an off-centerboard performs beautifully and vastly improves the cockpit layout of your average small sail & oar boat.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    I want to swing back from the safety/practicality issues to the comfort question. If you can't be really comfortable in a boat, how are you going to enjoy being in it all day long?

    My Redmond Whisp Margalo doesn't meet all the criteria above, but it is a very light, very easy to handle and comfortable boat. By sitting on a cushion on the sole, a second cushion behind me, I can sail in Barcalounger mode. I steer with a perimeter steering line that holds the rudder in place if I let go of it. And in a tack, I just have to slide about 12" to port or starboard to shift my weight. (It's a skinny boat.)

    Lots of boats offer no back support, many offer very little back support, and sailing is therefore not a relaxed enterprise. This is fine and to be expected in a small boat designed for racing, but the cruiser needs his comforts.

    Here I was caught on my way to the MASCF overnight camp this year.

    MASCF 2018 C.jpg
    -Dave

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    I want to swing back from the safety/practicality issues to the comfort question. If you can't be really comfortable in a boat, how are you going to enjoy being in it all day long?

    My Redmond Whisp Margalo doesn't meet all the criteria above, but it is a very light, very easy to handle and comfortable boat. By sitting on a cushion on the sole, a second cushion behind me, I can sail in Barcalounger mode. I steer with a perimeter steering line that holds the rudder in place if I let go of it.
    Love to see a pic of your steering setup, Woxbox. I think I'd like to try something besides the Scandinavian tiller for my Shearwater.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    Love to see a pic of your steering setup, Woxbox. I think I'd like to try something besides the Scandinavian tiller for my Shearwater.
    There is, of course, an old thread. Looks like it was 2009 I made the switch, and I haven't gone back.
    -Dave

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    There is, of course, an old thread. Looks like it was 2009 I made the switch, and I haven't gone back.
    Thanks! I can see the possibility of simply rigging a perimeter line and then lashing the push/pull to it when I want to

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by John Perry View Post
    At the link below I have something about the 15' sail and oar boat that I completed in 1978. It is the boat we have used for nearly all of our sailing over the past 40 years including a dozen passages accross the English Channel. For the past few summers we have been living on board it for weeks at a time, this year we were on the Adriatic coasts of Croatia and northern Itally. The boat includes many features that I think are useful, some of which have already been mentioned in this thread. Centreboard, which is balasted with lead, is mostly below the floor of the self draining cockpit so is not in the way for sleeping in the boat or when tacking. But we dont have any clever way to remove the tiller from the rudder, the two are permanently joined - why not? One feature that has proved valuable for sleeping on board when the boat is dried out is the flat underside that has two deep runners, like very shallow bilge keels. This allows the boat to dry out upright and stable with some protection against smallish rocks on the seabed. Dont know why that is not seen more often.

    http://www.hostellerssailingclub.org...y-for-cruising
    Interesting boat and impressive number of trips you made with her. The gunter rig is what we used to see in my country, but it is more and more changed for bermuda rigs. Did you cross the Channel and Nort Sea on ferries or on own keel?

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quite soon after building the boat I did several 2 week summer holdays sailing both ways accross he channel between south coast ports, Normandy, the channel islands and on one occasion as far as the north coast of Brittany. Then after I met Josephine the two of us had two summer holidays crossing the channel both ways under sail, once from Portland to Alderney (about the shortest passage accross the middle section of the channel) and once from Salcombe to Guernsey then on down to the south coast of Brittany via the Rance and Villain. Then in 2012 we did a one way trip from Gloucestershire via the Thames to Friesland, crossing the channel from Ramsgate to Dunkirk, which is a relatively short crossing, although plenty of traffic to look out for. I think that will be our last channel crossing in the dinghy 'on its own keel' - although it doesent realy have a keel. I dont really feel a desire to do it again with sail and oar but in recent years we have taken the dinghy accross the channel by ferry a number of times. This year's trip, as mentioned above, we took the boat on the Dover Calais ferry then road trailed it through Germany and Austria to Croatia, which was four days driving on motorways. We had a month on the Croatian coast followed by a month at the northern extremity of the Adriatic - this included sailing to Venice and exploring the Venetian lagoon. We then did some walking in the French Alps (partly to make a change from sailing and partly to escape the mosquitoes in the marshlands at the top end of the Adriatic!) before returning through France.

    I have mixed feelings about the gunter rig. It is certainly handy for road trailing and for on shore storage but it is more complicated than a Bermudian rig, with a bit more weight high up. We have the yard right up against the mast so the sail shape is identical to Bermudian. And we have a rotating mast (as do most really fast boats) and a rotating mast works well with a gunter rig since the mast and yard line up nicely, there is no need for gaff jaws.

    Actually, our boat is gunter rig only in light weather. In windy weather we take down the gunter sail and stow the yard in the bottom of the boat, then we hoist a small bermudian sail on the mast. This gives us a robust low rig for windy weather but the disadvantage is that it takes a lot longer to change sails than to just deep reef a Bermudian sail.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by John Perry View Post
    At the link below I have something about the 15' sail and oar boat that I completed in 1978. It is the boat we have used for nearly all of our sailing over the past 40 years including a dozen passages accross the English Channel. For the past few summers we have been living on board it for weeks at a time, this year we were on the Adriatic coasts of Croatia and northern Itally. The boat includes many features that I think are useful, some of which have already been mentioned in this thread. Centreboard, which is balasted with lead, is mostly below the floor of the self draining cockpit so is not in the way for sleeping in the boat or when tacking. But we dont have any clever way to remove the tiller from the rudder, the two are permanently joined - why not? One feature that has proved valuable for sleeping on board when the boat is dried out is the flat underside that has two deep runners, like very shallow bilge keels. This allows the boat to dry out upright and stable with some protection against smallish rocks on the seabed. Dont know why that is not seen more often.

    http://www.hostellerssailingclub.org...y-for-cruising
    thanks for sharing, many nice features. Always like the idea of a double bottom but hard to achieve in a DIY boat without lots of internal structure. Is the foam used structural? As you say it is ballast so you could go for a slightly heavier foam and have creating the inner core of a big sandwich construction bottom.

    Bilge runners are a big must must as you say, obviously must be full supported by the the structure of the hull. Nice to have replaceable rubbing strips.

    You have inspired me to work on my own design but then again second hand boats are so cheap these days and good materials so expensive it makes very little sense.

    Enterprises are particularly cheap and with not much money you could modify it to be a great cruiser, smaller rig a must obviously.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Yes, a double bottom with the floor inside the boat above the waterline is a nice feature, although there are also nice boats that do not have that feature. If you want to keep the boat afloat on a mooring its particularly beneficial since it can be self draining and will not fill up with rain water. I do remember one trip we made tacking up the Solent against F8 a good many years ago. Fairly protected water so not nearly as rough as the open sea but even so, had the boat not been self draining we could not have coped with the masses of water that were coming on board. A disadvantage of a self draining boat is that the floor is higher so the crew are rather less protected from wind and spray. Also, any leaks into the space under the floor will be very hard to locate and repair. You either have drainholes and inspection hatches (which may themselves be a cause of leaks), or you just seal everything up and hope that there are no leaks ever. I took the second option and AFAIK the space under the floor of our boat is still dry and sound after 40 years - any leakage would have started rot that would have become noticeable by now.

    The foam under the floor is certainly not essential. Simply dividing the space into a few watertight compartments should be enough to keep the boat afloat if it is holed. Another time I might use less foam and possibly use expanded polystyrene foam which is lighter than the polyurethane I used, although if you want ballast weight then foam under the floor could be considered to be part of the ballast. The foam is not really sturctural although it does make the floor inside the boat very stiff, you dont notice any deflection of the floor if you jump on board because there is foam hard up against the underside of the floor.

    I am sure this has been said before on this forum - you dont build your own boat to save money! These days you can buy a good second hand boat for less than the materials to build an equivalent boat yourself. You may even be able to buy a brand new production boat for less than the materials to build your own - the few boat building firms that are still in business probably buy materials and parts for much less than the amateur builder has to pay and they can take advantage of production techniques that are not appropriate for building a single boat. Building your own boat you save the marketing costs, but not much else.

    But I think it is a bit sad that everything is valued in monetary terms. For some of us there is great pleasure (as well as probably some frustration) in building a boat, it can be an expensive hobby but a rewarding one. Also I think there is something satisfying about using a boat you have built yourself. But you probably already know that - I took a look at your website as on your profile here and it seems you are not new to boat building.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    The thread has sort of been about oar and sail because Tom is gushing about his new oar and sail boat. Broadly speaking some people go for more open space, some people go for more segmented space. People have been known to migrate in their preference between one and the other. A whole range of useful details flow from one arrangement or the other.

    Certainly agree on hands off steering. We have our own pushstick gimmick.
    And... apropos Pless' "cupholder" comment - didn't you once tell me that you favored equipping all your designs with a bidet... if at all possible? Come to think of it, I don't know how much weight to put on that comment. You may have been drunk at the time. Or I might have been. <G>
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by John Perry View Post
    Yes, a double bottom with the floor inside the boat above the waterline is a nice feature, although there are also nice boats that do not have that feature. If you want to keep the boat afloat on a mooring its particularly beneficial since it can be self draining and will not fill up with rain water. I do remember one trip we made tacking up the Solent against F8 a good many years ago. Fairly protected water so not nearly as rough as the open sea but even so, had the boat not been self draining we could not have coped with the masses of water that were coming on board. A disadvantage of a self draining boat is that the floor is higher so the crew are rather less protected from wind and spray. Also, any leaks into the space under the floor will be very hard to locate and repair. You either have drainholes and inspection hatches (which may themselves be a cause of leaks), or you just seal everything up and hope that there are no leaks ever. I took the second option and AFAIK the space under the floor of our boat is still dry and sound after 40 years - any leakage would have started rot that would have become noticeable by now.

    The foam under the floor is certainly not essential. Simply dividing the space into a few watertight compartments should be enough to keep the boat afloat if it is holed. Another time I might use less foam and possibly use expanded polystyrene foam which is lighter than the polyurethane I used, although if you want ballast weight then foam under the floor could be considered to be part of the ballast. The foam is not really sturctural although it does make the floor inside the boat very stiff, you dont notice any deflection of the floor if you jump on board because there is foam hard up against the underside of the floor.

    I am sure this has been said before on this forum - you dont build your own boat to save money! These days you can buy a good second hand boat for less than the materials to build an equivalent boat yourself. You may even be able to buy a brand new production boat for less than the materials to build your own - the few boat building firms that are still in business probably buy materials and parts for much less than the amateur builder has to pay and they can take advantage of production techniques that are not appropriate for building a single boat. Building your own boat you save the marketing costs, but not much else.

    But I think it is a bit sad that everything is valued in monetary terms. For some of us there is great pleasure (as well as probably some frustration) in building a boat, it can be an expensive hobby but a rewarding one. Also I think there is something satisfying about using a boat you have built yourself. But you probably already know that - I took a look at your website as on your profile here and it seems you are not new to boat building.
    Thanks for the additional information on you fantastic boat. Fully agree with the last two paragraphs about building vs buying. As I said in an earlier post I have designed and built boats and moving from the north to an hour away from the south coast. After years of dinghy racing I am going to give dinghy cruising a go and so itching to get on the water and then maybe design something based on my experience of cruising.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    This makes interesting reading.

    http://www.solentsoundings.org/files/Setting_up_the_Cruising_Dinghy_by_Cliff_Martin2.pd f


    With the abundance of secondhand boats it’s the U.K. quite easy to get a project boat that the racing boys don’t want and adjust her for cruising with cast off sails. Here's a few classes with their sail area in square metres the square feet
    Mirror - 6.4sq m 69sq ft
    Gull - 6.5 70
    Heron - 7.61 82
    405 - 7.98 86
    Graduate - 8.36 90
    National 12 - 8.4 90
    RS Feva - 8.6 93
    Laser 2 - 8.64 93
    Miracle - 8.9 96
    Firefly - 9 97
    Topaz Vibe - 9.11 98
    Laser 13 - 9.32 100
    Lark - 9.75 105
    Enterprise - 10.5 113

    3 sets of sails for £350 pounds, years of fun for a very modest investment

    32DE587D-46CC-42CB-A4B6-9B81449A214F.jpg51C7D0D0-4A1D-4A46-8C91-CDCE6916AF54.jpg

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Some pleasant comfort features which are uncommon due to performance cost (why do folks turn recreation into seeking arbitrary goals and performance?):

    - Self tacking jib
    - Pair of side dagger boards (internal)
    - Venturi auto bailers
    - Hands off tiller friction/dampening device

    The jib doesn't have to be small and clubbed - there is a way to have sort of a rope traveller allowing crude auto-tack, yet leave both jib sheets in place for manual override. I found a sunken sailboat of unknown type with internal daggerboards on each side, and it worked great for opening up the cockpit. In theory the 2 boards cause flow interference, so the retentive can lift one at a time. Since they are short, they are inherently sturdy and can survive hits on rocks w/o swingup. Bailers below waterline can be closed when not underway, or use one way valves. For tiller, I use a stretched nylon rope from side to side, looped around tiller. Just tight enough to allow brief hands off, but allows reasonable movement.

    P.S. Phil Bolger writes about inherent design conflicts between rowing dinghy vs sailing dinghy. He wrote you should optimize for just one of the two - not either or in the middle. I believe it was you can add oars to a good sailing design, but never add sails to a good rowing design. Good rowers have low wetted surface that subvert heeling stability and wide sailing sterns. Or was it the reverse?
    Last edited by rudderless; 11-26-2018 at 03:31 PM.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    (why do folks turn recreation into seeking arbitrary goals and performance?):

    In theory the 2 boards cause flow interference, so the retentive can lift one at a time.
    Having a preference for a boat that does better at certain arbitrary goals and performance is surely like having a preference for a nice and well tuned guitar instead of an off-key washtub bass or a cheap guitar, a good white wine with complex flavours instead of water or a "goon skin" of vinegar, or a wooden boat with beautiful lines, joinery and varnish instead of an aluminium barge painted in grey. They are perfectly good preferences. I spend most of my time sailing the simplest popular racing sailcraft known to mankind, but the people who choose more complex gear aren't "retentive", they just happen to have different tastes to mine at the moment.

    By the way, one of the world's most popular high speed classes (F18 cats) and the Olympic foiling Nacra catamarans use self tackers for performance reasons, scows use leeboards for performance, lots of high performance craft use venturis, and International Canoes and foiling Moths often have hands off tiller dampening devices, so if such devices aren't used on cruising dinghies it wouldn't seem to be due to performance costs. Much as I personally love self tackers, for example, others dislike them for reasons such as the fact that you can't back them and they are also sheeted on instantly when you come out of a tack. The preference of those who dislike them is arguably just as valid as the preference of those of us who love them.

    EDIT - Come to think of it, if you look at some of the dinghies that have been used for cruising, which include twin-sliding-seat canoes, Sydney Harbour 22 Foot "skiffs" and Mirrors, then the current mainstream cruising dinghies appear to have already gone very, very hard in the direction of easy sailing. In earlier times even boats as fast as the Olympic Flying Dutchman and Finn were designed and built for cruising.
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-26-2018 at 09:45 PM.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    This makes interesting reading.

    http://www.solentsoundings.org/files/Setting_up_the_Cruising_Dinghy_by_Cliff_Martin2.pd f


    With the abundance of secondhand boats it’s the U.K. quite easy to get a project boat that the racing boys don’t want and adjust her for cruising with cast off sails. Here's a few classes with their sail area in square metres the square feet
    Mirror - 6.4sq m 69sq ft
    Gull - 6.5 70
    Heron - 7.61 82
    405 - 7.98 86
    Graduate - 8.36 90
    National 12 - 8.4 90
    RS Feva - 8.6 93
    Laser 2 - 8.64 93
    Miracle - 8.9 96
    Firefly - 9 97
    Topaz Vibe - 9.11 98
    Laser 13 - 9.32 100
    Lark - 9.75 105
    Enterprise - 10.5 113

    3 sets of sails for £350 pounds, years of fun for a very modest investment

    32DE587D-46CC-42CB-A4B6-9B81449A214F.jpg51C7D0D0-4A1D-4A46-8C91-CDCE6916AF54.jpg
    If you can find one,a Leader is a better cruising dinghy than an Enterprise.It has a stern tank for stowage and the tabernacle stepped mast is a lot more user friendly than the Enterprise's deck stepped mast.It has most of the characteristics of a Wayfarer and around 120lbs less to drag up a slipway.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    I havenít posted much lately, but I still use Rowan every summer. I did a trip lasting 28 days a couple of years ago, and a shorter 10-day just this last July.

    I still canít think of anything Iíd want to change, honestly. This particular set of compromises fits me like a glove. If I could think of something to make her even better suited to her mission, Iíd do it. But after the last round of adding a few minor tweaks at her refit about five years ago, I havenít come up with anything I would add or subtract.

    One thing: Tom doesnít mention ground-tackle storage at all, something I have found to be quite important. Probably another artifact of the lake sailor vs tidal sailor differences. I need a place to hold anchor and chain and rode, and a bunch more rope for clothesline mooring, ready for immediate deployment, and secure, rapid stowage. I think my grating-floored anchor stowage bin adds a welcome simplification to my lifestyle choices.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    If you can find one,a Leader is a better cruising dinghy than an Enterprise.It has a stern tank for stowage and the tabernacle stepped mast is a lot more user friendly than the Enterprise's deck stepped mast.It has most of the characteristics of a Wayfarer and around 120lbs less to drag up a slipway.
    Don’t disagree with you about the Leader but the extra 20kg (compared to an Enterprise) puts me off a little. Top of my list is a Gull just because it is lighter still. Going even lighter is the Mirror which like the Enterprise are abundant and cheap.

    Getting back to great design features then, lightness has to be top. Smaller lighter boats simply get more use especially when you want to trailer sail.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    - Monohulls should have a transom (moderate drainage cutouts ok)

    - Monohulls should not depend on flimsy hiking strap to stay on boat (want moderately high sides)

    I was shopping for my dream high tech sailboat approaching 18 ft with no keel but plane-able solo. The major big name plastics came like the Hunter 18 with no transom at all, and only a rudder post to meat slice you sliding off the stern. I do like fast self bailing at least for water, but my 11 footer will swamp it's hugely cutout transom stern with my weight a tad back while going slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    I spend most of my time sailing the simplest popular racing sailcraft known to mankind, but the people who choose more complex gear aren't "retentive", they just happen to have different tastes to mine at the moment.
    Yeah, I can dig a lone sailor savoring high performance gear for it's own sake. The problem is the high number of folks who are only on the water to show off and rank themselves over other racers. They may not care if they compete on land, sea, or air but are driving the market for boats loaded with fussy fittings like for gennakers and lack of things like transoms. Live and let live, but I wish for features not catering to them.

    It's like the kayak mass market - in the last few years hulls have become intricately oriented toward fishers, often making a point of catering to 300+ lb ones that certainly don't need to "put food on the table". This explosion of messy (and cruel) activity off popular coasts has been linked to recent rise of shark attacks to more than just fishermen. Again I think it is driven by folks trying to rank themselves and proving to be dominant over other species and fishers. I just wish for features not catering to them but to real water and boat lovers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    By the way, one of the world's most popular high speed classes (F18 cats) and the Olympic foiling Nacra catamarans use self tackers for performance reasons, scows use leeboards for performance, lots of high performance craft use venturies, and International Canoes and foiling Moths often have hands off tiller dampening devices, so if such devices aren't used on cruising dinghies it wouldn't seem to be due to performance cost.
    It is too easy to put self tacking jib on a wide catamaran (video below) but I am calling for doing it on a narrow monohull, preferably without club. As for leeboards, I was repelled by frequent need to hoist the windward one to avoid rattle on the Seapearl 21 - I do like to thread the needle with frequent tacks. My unknown sailboat had rarely-seen internal sideboards which seemed so nice although gave me the impression of "snowplowing" while underway. Now that I read a thread of a designer condemning them, I realize they were actually pigeon toeing relative to divergent hull flow. In that case you don't have to raise the windward board, but can if you seek performance. https://www.nordic-yachting.com/wp-c...-winner08d.jpg

    The venturi bailers seem underused and blogs of Seapearl 21s taking on lots of water are a case in point. I bet those in my Harpoon 4.6 did degrade my performance by 0.01 knot when deployed. I didn't know about tiller dampeners aside from the extreme of a wheeled helm until a Dutch boat designer prescribed a crude one for me. If there are better ways to implement this where it doesn't hamper your subtle touch on the rudder, I would certainly like to know about it. I am sick of needing 3 hands to solo control rudder, sails and hang on w/o hiking strap.

    Last edited by rudderless; 11-26-2018 at 10:40 PM.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    I have a self tacking jib without a club on a very narrow mono (Int Canoe) and of course so do 49ers and 29ers. As noted above, most people in ICs don't like them because if you're slow crossing the boat, the jib will often fill before you're ready, which can lead to a capsize. Overall, though, they are certainly NOT a "performance cost", which is why they were used on Olympic Solings, Olympic Stars, Olympic Tornado cats, Olympic 49er skiffs and Formula 18s.

    Personally, I loved my self tacker on the Canoe and on yachts and cats, but they are not a "pleasant cruising feature uncommon due to performance cost (and) arbitrary goals" - they are often a performance AIDING feature that is uncommon because of other issues and problems (ie furling can be a pain, there's more friction on the sheets, etc) and therefore people may choose not to have them for very, very good reasons apart from performance and "arbitrary goals".

    By the way, plenty of us use gennakers because we love the feeling and the convenience, not to "show off". In fact, given the rating and angle issues of gennakers, most people who race with them outside of class racing do so knowing that they are less likely to win races than if they used a sym. It's just an easier way to set and handle a spinnaker. Why should we have to use a more problematic sail in order to avoid being the target of negative generalisations?
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-27-2018 at 06:04 AM.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Back in my International Canoe days I fitted a track to create a self tacking jib, it was popular at the time, it worked a treat. It was relatively expensive but I can see it would be beneficial to a cruising dinghy short tacking in restricted waters. It would be possible to use with roller furling. ICs I have seen recently use a club boom which extends forward and a line from the forward end goes to the hounds and is tensioned to eliminate twist. Talking to the sailor of the canoe it enables the canoe to be sailed goose winged, a benefit to the cruising sailor. The downside would be reefing, but not above the wit of man.

    My IC simply had a piece of elastic pulling the tiller to the centre, interesting if Chris249 has seen something more sophisticated but this simple system would be useful of a cruising boat.

    With regard gennakers / asymmetrics when in fifty years we look back at the sailing innovations of this time this will viewed as the most significant. They are simple and a joy to use and would greatly improve cruising boats.

    Good dinghy cruising is all about good seamanship and having a bit of extra speed available has to be good seamanship.

    I have Venturi bailers on my racing dinghy and when I first get in the boat they tend to leak, I suspect from grit and sand of my boots. After keeping them open for a while they eventually clean them selves and stop leaking. I would not feel safe sleeping on a cruising boat fitted with them, especially considering that cruising boats are likely to be dragged up beaches.

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  27. #62
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    I have Venturi bailers on my racing dinghy and when I first get in the boat they tend to leak, I suspect from grit and sand of my boots. After keeping them open for a while they eventually clean them selves and stop leaking. I would not feel safe sleeping on a cruising boat fitted with them, especially considering that cruising boats are likely to be dragged up beaches.
    Well, we sleep on inflatable air beds in our dinghy, so would not matter - we would just float around inside!
    But not going to happen anyway since floor of our boat is slightly above waterline (by about 20mm, depending on loading).

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Two daggerboards could be asymmetrical so they would give more lift, just as leeboards in tradtional Dutch boats. I am not sure what the disadvantages are in a monohull. Does anyone know about this?

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Not many dissadvanages. There would be less support given to the keelson by the centerboard case not being there. The case does transmit loads up from the keel to the thwarts and accross the boat etc and stiffen the keel/ keelson. I think also on a practical level, as builders, you'd be looking at compound rolling bevels on the bed logs and probably accross some chines/ laps on small boats for actually installing them...a bit of a ball ache...probably be a good use of big fillets and tape. A bit more work than a midline centercase unless you adopt the Welsford construction technique with a flat mid panel and put them on the outer edge: like Walkabouts single off center foil/ case. Lots of upsides though, especially for narrow sail and oar.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 11-28-2018 at 07:08 AM.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    My current build employs twin bilgeboards to improve the utility of the cabin. It also gets the needed lateral surface in two shorter trunks rather than one long one.

    If you use asymmetrical boards or install with toe-in -- or both -- then you have to raise the windward board. If not, they'll be fighting each other and adding much drag.

    My build is a CLC Autumn Leaves, which favors practicality over performance in most every aspect. The boards are flat and there's no toe in. The intent is to leave them both down all the time.

    -Dave

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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    On self-tacking jibs, I'm surprised the Camberspar setup didn't become more popular. I haven't used one, but it certainly seems to solve the issue very neatly. Much more so than that extended club setup, which looks clumsy and puts a line up in the wind. Anyone have experience with these?

    -Dave

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    The thread has sort of been about oar and sail because Tom is gushing about his new oar and sail boat. Broadly speaking some people go for more open space, some people go for more segmented space. People have been known to migrate in their preference between one and the other. A whole range of useful details flow from one arrangement or the other.

    Certainly agree on hands off steering. We have our own pushstick gimmick.
    Tom arrives here at my place in less than two weeks, I am very sure that we're going to have some really interesting discussions on this subject, as I write I'm taking a few minutes break from working on Long Steps, which is a whole different set of compromises from the usual sail and oar cruiser, but then she's intended for a whole different purpose. There are in fact at least two further along with their build of that design than I am, and its quite possible that I'll be finding out how the design performs from one or other of them before I get mine in the water. But I;m trying to catch up.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Tom arrives here at my place in less than two weeks, I am very sure that we're going to have some really interesting discussions on this subject, as I write I'm taking a few minutes break from working on Long Steps, which is a whole different set of compromises from the usual sail and oar cruiser, but then she's intended for a whole different purpose. There are in fact at least two further along with their build of that design than I am, and its quite possible that I'll be finding out how the design performs from one or other of them before I get mine in the water. But I;m trying to catch up.

    John Welsford
    What?!?! Didn't you say you'd have Long Steps ready to go by the time I got there? I was planning on living aboard during my New Zealand cruise. Er, visit. That's right, it's a visit.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    What?!?! Didn't you say you'd have Long Steps ready to go by the time I got there? I was planning on living aboard during my New Zealand cruise. Er, visit. That's right, it's a visit.

    Tom
    You can help me progress the build a bit if you wish, or we could put Spook in the water for you, or you could take SEI out. Lets see, thats three of my six boats, so there are choices.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Great Design Features in Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    You can help me progress the build a bit if you wish, or we could put Spook in the water for you, or you could take SEI out. Lets see, thats three of my six boats, so there are choices.

    John Welsford
    thanks, John, much appreciated, of course; but as my wife would no doubt be reminding me right now if she were reading this over my shoulder, it's not a sailing vacation we're after! (Even if some of us might be inclined that way...)

    I'll be keenly interested in seeing Long Steps and Sei in person for sure. The catching up with a friend I haven't seen in a few years will be the best part, though.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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