Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 36 to 69 of 69

Thread: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

  1. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Minus 11 in the conservatory this morning, but with the applied heat, the epoxy has gone off, and no spring back when the clamps and cleats were removed.

    PICT5912.jpg

    The 3 layer system on the ballast casting.

    PICT5915.jpg

    Setting up a pattern for the casting and keel bolts.

    PICT5918.jpg
    Last edited by skaraborgcraft; 11-28-2018 at 09:15 AM.

  2. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Pattern on top layer for bolt and floor location.

    PICT5919.jpg


    It was a good time to discover the actual casting was bowed slightly, better to find that out now, before cutting what might have been thought as an accurate oblong hole, well sheathed, only to find it wont fit, that would have been a bad hair day! Getting the bolt holes in the right place now so i can work around other things. The aft most bolt on the port side will need an elongated hole to drop down, as it was not quite vertical, otherwise all good. No rusty re-bar breaking through as yet.......

  3. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Top and bottom layers complete...

    PICT5920.jpg

    Top layer/floor will need a rough bevel put on it.

    PICT5922.jpg

    I will add on the underside a "keyway" timber, first to act as a doubler for the bolts securing the stem and shaft log, but also to locate the floors when the time comes to join them.

    PICT5923.jpg

    Then off to the keel for a dry fit......

  4. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    627

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Very interesting, looking forward to see how things will go together!!

    /Fredrik

  5. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Even with the pattern, it was a tight fit. I cut back where it was rubbing.

    PICT5924.jpg

    Due to the narrow width of the plank at the ends of the casting, i will add one piece planks either side of the casting, and then likely to cross the plank the rest, what will be the middle layer.

    PICT5930.jpg

    Still undecided as yet wether to lay up the three layers in one hit, all glassed and add the ballast last, or entirely wrap the bottom 2 layers with the casting, then add that after completion. Each wooden keel layer is as much as i can handle alone, i do not relish the thought of flipping the boat with all that weight on the bottom, even if i make up a system to roll it, im pretty restricted on space. It would be nice to complete the bottom up to the chine in one go, upside down,glassed, and then flip it before it gets planked up. Sheathing the topside wont be too much of an issue if i can roll it down on the opposite chine. Long way before that happens, but has to be reckoned for.
    Tip of the day, paint the new floor after you have removed the dribbled gobs of epoxy on it, and before the significant other gets home......

  6. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Quote Originally Posted by trango View Post
    Very interesting, looking forward to see how things will go together!!

    /Fredrik
    Hi Fredrik, we got about 3 days left this year of glue weather. I hope to get the middle layer down on the bottom, then will have to think how best to proceed with the rest of it. Bad enough getting dark at 3.30 down here, not sure how you cope up there, does my melon in!

  7. #42
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    15,526

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    A heat gun set on a moderate temperature will make epoxy blobs pop right off concrete. Usually the blower in the gun itself will blow the epoxy away.
    It is admittedly disconcerting, to me.

    For the topsides, prewet cloth on plastic sheet, then roll it up on a mandrel, like a piece of closet rod. Then, the cloth can just be unrolled on the surface.

    I did it on that orange thing, but I first used it befor that. It works especially well for long pieces of cloth if youíre working alone, even if they arenít vertical.

    Peace,
    Helpy Helperton

  8. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Measure 3 times before drilling holes! I was going to drill the holes before shifting the keel plank to the barn, but after seeing one of my strike-up marks 3in out of place, i thought i better check...

    PICT5932.jpg

    I had measured to the back edge of the casting, after i had sawn 3in off the aft end to allow the knee something to back onto, so my pattern was 3in further forward than it should have been. Set the hole pattern up again in the right place and voila!

    PICT5937.jpg

    Another small step for mankind. I really want to sheath the underside contact patch where the casting will back onto, and probably a good idea to sheath the top in one hit before the floors go on. What with the sub zero temps returning, that might all have to be put off for another time. However, while i have the clearance, nice time to mock up the engine beds and dry fit.

  9. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Heat gun worked a treat Rob. I usually use the wet method applying glass, i might have been lucky, but i find once you have some contact with the cloth on the resin, i have not had any issues with it falling off, being rolled off a cardboard tube. I just dont want to work on my back if it can be avoided.

  10. #45
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    592

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    skara, It might be late, but then an 11th hour change maybe still possible, so heck, I am going to say what I have been thinking -- back on the 13ft prototype thread, the suggestion had been made to go with a single daggerboard exiting through the steel shoe, instead of twin cases out close to the chines.
    This centreline case lines up with a keel stepped mast, if a junk rig is included, and could still work with the ferro casting.
    It would mean cutting a slot in the casting, and laminating the bottom part of the case at the same time as the box underside is laid up ( presumably upside down for ease of material application).
    having a thick laminate at the case opening and extending maybe 6 or so inches up/inside) will allow for the rest of the case to be built and bonded on later.
    The slot will have to be oversize, and in any case additional thickness of laminate build in this area is not a bad thing.
    case exit is aft of the mast step and the case slopes at an acute angle to exit the fore deck.
    This means a substantial bulk of heavy structure is built around the mast step and case opening, which could comprise of more cement on an armature, built around a pre made epoxy glass case lining.
    Could be that this ferro structure extends outwards on either side as floors, that might even allow for futtocks to be bolted on, along with timbers.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 12-03-2018 at 03:00 PM.

  11. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Thanks for the thoughts Lug. At present, i am considering placing any dagger board as an offset unit, going through the hull, rather than the keel. I also started calculating about two small drop blades in sealed cases fore and aft. There was a Polish manufactured boat that has ,i think 3 foils, and can be made to self steer on any point of sail by adjustment, i did not really want the extra complications, but the benefit of smaller cases and self steering balance are hard to ignore. Yrvind used them on one of his boats, and Benford has a twin blade set up too. I shall dig out some photo.





    Building the entire keel shoe from ferro or steel with intergral housings would certainly be one way to do it, but i think it would be pushing weight too close to the ends. I have seen a steel bottom and wood planking done on a Dutch boat, but its always going to be a seam/joint i would worry about, steel or ferro.
    Fortunate maybe to have some time to ponder before it gets stuck together. At the very least, it will need even a small plate up forward, if only to stop the bow blowing off in strong wind when slow manouvering, theres a lot of expensive boats on the way to my berth!

  12. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    15,526

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    You should have just built a proa.

    Are you planning the other boards to be dagger types, as well?

    Mayhaps bilge or chine runner type keels could be supplemented with dagger fore and aft, so you could have a bilge area free from holes. You know, the whole “belly” are could be solid, and with maybe wee keel-lets to help supplement the beefiness for landings.

    Just making sounds with my head spacer and translating them to thumb taps.

    Peace,
    Robert

  13. #48
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    lagunitas, ca, usa
    Posts
    97

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    i think it would be pushing weight too close to the ends.
    You might actually want that ? Or some of it, at any rate ? We played with that some in dirt track cars : the more central you get all the weight, the more skittish it becomes. (Polar moment of inertia, in engineer-speak.) In a midget it was a compromise between too skittish so that any bump threw the car around, or too stable so you couldn't steer.

    In your boat the extremes would be hobby-horse seasick time or plowing through every wave you pass, water everywhere

    Still, I am not sure the super-centralized-weight plan is entirely good ?

  14. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Favorite View Post
    You might actually want that ? Or some of it, at any rate ? We played with that some in dirt track cars : the more central you get all the weight, the more skittish it becomes. (Polar moment of inertia, in engineer-speak.) In a midget it was a compromise between too skittish so that any bump threw the car around, or too stable so you couldn't steer.

    In your boat the extremes would be hobby-horse seasick time or plowing through every wave you pass, water everywhere

    Still, I am not sure the super-centralized-weight plan is entirely good ?
    I absoulutely agree "super centralized" weight is not a good idea, thats why the ballast casting is spread over almost half the keel. My offshore experience in small lightweight boats confirms, in my experience anyway, that having light ends is more benefit in nasty stuff. A boat whos ends will not lift, but driven through solid water need to be built to take that, and that in itself is a design spiral.....more weight, more ballast, more sail etc etc etc....

    EDIT: One of the worst boats i have been on for the hobby-horse affect was also one of the heaviest built, a Colin Archer type. None of the lightweight plywood boats i have been offshore with have had the motion you describe, and the times i have been sea sick, were not down to boat motion, rather than just ocean "heave" and swell, im capable of throwing up on any deck, no matter how its ballasted!
    Last edited by skaraborgcraft; 12-04-2018 at 05:00 PM.

  15. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    You should have just built a proa.

    Are you planning the other boards to be dagger types, as well?

    Mayhaps bilge or chine runner type keels could be supplemented with dagger fore and aft, so you could have a bilge area free from holes. You know, the whole “belly” are could be solid, and with maybe wee keel-lets to help supplement the beefiness for landings.

    Just making sounds with my head spacer and translating them to thumb taps.

    Peace,
    Robert
    I was thinking, and thats all it is at present, 2 smaller boards fore n aft, could be pivoted boards in there own sealed cases. The single forward board would be daggerboard, its casing can be backed onto and act as a bulkhead/divider, ensuring a comfortable seat on the flushing throne in almost any weather.......should i actually fit one up there in the bow. Im tempted to leave it out , if it goes through the garboard rather than the keel, its an easy retro-fit. The 13 did make leeway with no board under sail, but she handled ok with no sail up ,under motor. When i have the keel set up with some frames on it it will be easier to decide just what space i have. There is already a good bit of keel aft under the water, it only needs a few sq ft forward to help balance and prevent bows blowing off. I do prefer having a 3in laminated wood bottom with 2in of reinforced concerete with no holes in it, why weaken a landing shoe? (different story if it was solid plate steel ballast with the hole in for a daggerboard)

  16. #51
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Toodyay, Western Australia
    Posts
    703

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Worst trouble I had with sea sickness was in my folkboat. Every cruise I ever went on in that boat had me chundering like a sick dog for the first two days. After that it would ease up, but still couldn't spend too much time sitting up, or worse still sitting up while plotting positions on the chart. Much later I ended up doing lots of cruising in my paradox, sometimes in quite rough seas, but never once got sick. The difference I reckon is due to the spread of ballast, as well as the crew position relative to the centre of motion. Your ballast arrangement looks to me like it will give a very comfortable motion.

  17. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    I never got to take my Folkboat offshore. I did come to the conclusion i could not actually put up with the noise generated by the clinker construction, i know some people find it soothing, but i seemed to lose sleep over it. A friend who owned a Marieholms grp version, was almost silent in comparison.

    Cross planking of the middle layer. All rough cut to width. Too cold today for glue.

    PICT5938.jpg

  18. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    592

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Thanks for the thoughts Lug. At present, i am considering placing any dagger board as an offset unit, going through the hull, rather than the keel. I also started calculating about two small drop blades in sealed cases fore and aft. There was a Polish manufactured boat that has ,i think 3 foils, and can be made to self steer on any point of sail by adjustment, i did not really want the extra complications, but the benefit of smaller cases and self steering balance are hard to ignore. Yrvind used them on one of his boats, and Benford has a twin blade set up too. I shall dig out some photo.





    Building the entire keel shoe from ferro or steel with intergral housings would certainly be one way to do it, but i think it would be pushing weight too close to the ends. I have seen a steel bottom and wood planking done on a Dutch boat, but its always going to be a seam/joint i would worry about, steel or ferro.
    Fortunate maybe to have some time to ponder before it gets stuck together. At the very least, it will need even a small plate up forward, if only to stop the bow blowing off in strong wind when slow manouvering, theres a lot of expensive boats on the way to my berth!
    Nice boat, that Bedford design, and looking at the placement of the drop boards/centre or off-centreboards, I see that this option could work for you.
    Joke by amish rob about building a proa is not soo hilarious if we consider proa like immersion steering...... here the forward board will be central and parallel to the keel line, while the after boards are near the quarters and are angled to thrust inwards when dropped.
    Steering is then pretty much the same as a proa, where weather helm is corrected by variable immersion of the lee side board, although, with a single bow and two boards (where the proa has two bows and only one board down when steering), there is the possibility to turn either to port or to starb.

    Still, I would laminate the case apertures into the hull, by wrapping the external skin into the slots, and creating a thick flange, onto which the case will be bonded from the inside.
    Having swing boards rather than the dagger type, should guard against strike damage, at the same time as having control by swinging up or down.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 12-05-2018 at 02:34 PM.

  19. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Yeah that Rob fella likes Proas, but they are not such a great idea up in the frozen North unless really big. The dagger would only be used when sailing hard on the wind, or inside the harbour, there is always the chance of hitting a solid object, but i would rather a smaller case and slot. The two small centre boards though are unobtrusive enough that the slot and case might not be such an issue, should i go down that road, in fact 2 small boards each side of midships would probably be good to help damp rolling, but that is what the mizzen was for mostly .

  20. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,225

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Bolger experimented with various board placements. The Dovekie and Shearwater were produced with small bow centerboards to complement the twin leeboards. If I remember correctly, the Dovekie did not have the forward board in its first iteration. I believe it was added after the first few were launched. I seem to recall Bolger writing that it allowed the boat to be sailed in very shallow water.

    My concern with boards spread fore and aft would be tacking. I think the forward board would have to be raised to get her to come around reliably.

    Dovekie


    -Dave

  21. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    ^ Right Dave. The forward board on the Dovkie is really out there,i can see why it would want raising to ease tacking. I should have as much submerged bow as an "average" displacement boat, lets say an Albin 25, they seem to manouvre quite well and have reasonably high house above the decks. There have been more than a few fitted with bow thrusters, im not sure if that is anything to do with its handling, the crew, or mooring situation. I do know the version with a sail rig needs more keel and rudder to work well. For the same reason Bolger drew these in on some of his long shallow draught motor boats, it would certainly help with the slow speed manovre in winds, but something bigger and deeper would be required to help with more lift and leeway prevention under sail, i would have thought, but the Benford boats boards are not overly big; i wonder how they worked out and if any were built like that?

  22. #57
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    15,526

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Yeah that Rob fella likes Proas, but they are not such a great idea up in the frozen North unless really big. The dagger would only be used when sailing hard on the wind, or inside the harbour, there is always the chance of hitting a solid object, but i would rather a smaller case and slot. The two small centre boards though are unobtrusive enough that the slot and case might not be such an issue, should i go down that road, in fact 2 small boards each side of midships would probably be good to help damp rolling, but that is what the mizzen was for mostly .

    Hehe. Itís gotten worse. I am intrigued at the prospect of building an asymmetrical boat.

    As to twin boards... lots of bonuses. If youíre doing small swinging boards their trunks can be a great boon to stiffness. You could also leave both down for short tacking or maneuvers like such, and not have to worry about banging or hanging one.

    Maybe a beefy rub strip can run along each slot, to protect them?

    Personally, Iíll probably never have anything except leeboards, ever again. I like them too much.

    Anyway. Either way, keep on keeping on. I love this project.

    Peace,
    Robert

  23. #58
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Yeah, twin boards of some description around midships would be nice, but would not do much to prevent the bow from blowing off. As the project would most likely get launched without any kind of interior, that does give me the option to add what might be needed when i know for sure. I will need something up the front end, that i know.
    Working up the stem-knee template.

  24. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    592

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Nose end board case doubling as stem knee cheeks, sounds like a good way to go.
    Configured like the Bolger example, hauling up with line should do the adjustment trick, if a metal plate has enough weight to drop whenever needed.
    Too much gripe is definitely going to be a hangup coming through the wind....... good thing to be able to set only as much LA up there as you need.
    Bolger has those leeboards with enough area to create a pivot spot, for when swinging the nose through the wind, which you might not have the benefit of.
    As well, the length of keel box is probably going to dampen the yawing tendency, compared to the way a Bolger sharpie hull reacts to helm.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 12-06-2018 at 05:32 PM.

  25. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Rain instead of snow for the next 3 days, so can get the centre layer poxed onto the base. Will do one end at a time, using local heat to kick things off.

    PICT5942.jpg

  26. #61
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    spicewood, texas, usa
    Posts
    276

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    quite interesting to watch and very informative too. keep up the good work. where are you located? i know south of sweden from your comment to fredrick..

    jim

  27. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Hi Jim, thanks. Im on the North side of lake Vattern, known as Skaraborg.


  28. #63
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    15,526

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Hi Jim, thanks. Im on the North side of lake Vattern, known as Skaraborg.

    Why am I overcome with the sudden desire to kick you in the shin? Thatís a lovely spot, there.

    Peace,
    Look At The WATER!

  29. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    ^ Not to forget this place is like a double edged sword....summer is fine....but winter...

    frozen vattern 006.jpg

    frozen vattern 011.jpg

  30. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    1 minute of standing in the above water, and you can kick my shins all you like, i guarentee i wont feel a thing........

  31. #66
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    spicewood, texas, usa
    Posts
    276

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    wow, that is a beautiful location (in the summer!). must be a large lake to accomodate the large ship in the pic.

    jim

  32. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    ^ That is the steamboat "traffik". It goes to the "island of kings" in the lake during the tourist season. The lake is connected to the Gota canal system, so even living in the middle of the country, i have access to both coasts, Stockholm side ,the Baltic, Finland, Estonia and Russia or the Gothenburg side, Norway, Denmark the North Sea and Atlantic. Apart from the winters, not a bad spot to live.

    Middle keel slab was finally glued up today. Must have spent at least an hour of that time standing there stirring epoxy and fillers.

  33. #68
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lindstrom, MN
    Posts
    2,262

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Still a very interesting series of threads. I read about Atkin's Matthews Sailor maybe 50 years ago and have wanted one ever since.

    All I have to contribute is the umlaut that you couldn't type in the lake name some years and threads back. Všttern Hold [ALT] while typing 132.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 12-09-2018 at 06:51 PM.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,555

    Default Re: A trailerable box keel motorsailer

    Thanks Dave the Ś š and the other i cant type because the keyboard shortcut for the last few months wants to delete the page! System seems to make a difference. Swedish keyboards have the extra 3 letters on, Google and other search engines usually pick it up.

    Was the Matthews boat a box keel? Not seen that before, but sure i have read Atkin write about Matthews.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •