Results 1 to 28 of 28

Thread: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Sharon, MA
    Posts
    20,698

    Default Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    In a move lambasted by activists as an attack on women’s health, the Trump administration on Wednesday said it had finalized an Obamacare policy change that allows some employers to deny insurance coverage of birth control for “religious or moral” reasons.

    The final rules were issued in spite of the vehement opposition and ongoing legal challenges to the draft version of the regulations, first proposed last year. Women’s rights activists vowed to continue to challenge the change.
    Does this mean that a small business owner who is a congregant of the Jehova's Witnesses, be allowed to deny coverage for blood transfusions to it's employees?

    WHO decides what is, or is not, a bona fide religious or moral objection? Does it have to be based on a major religion?
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    50,299

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Not that far.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    7,331

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    A lot of people have issues with the Constitution. For the most part they are right.
    Life is complex.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Too far inland.
    Posts
    8,842

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    From the government perspective (taxes, etc) employees are not employed by an individual person, they are employed by a company.

    A person is guaranteed religious liberty by the constitution. I'm no legal scholar, but I think it's a stretch to assert that a company is afforded the same right, or even that a company is an entity that can have religion at all.
    No adversary is worse than bad advice.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    afloat with at least 6' of water under me.
    Posts
    58,560

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    A lot of people have issues with the Constitution. For the most part they are right.
    The 1st ten, what we call, the Bill of Rights. Disagreements are all about interpretation. The 2nd is the example there. Ammendments fall in a separate category as they usually added to it as explanations for 1-10. in my opinion

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Bass Harbor, ME
    Posts
    2,758

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    I don't think the government should allow any exemptions from law on the basis of religion. The law should be totally silent on religious issues.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    6,512

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    From the government perspective (taxes, etc) employees are not employed by an individual person, they are employed by a company.

    A person is guaranteed religious liberty by the constitution. I'm no legal scholar, but I think it's a stretch to assert that a company is afforded the same right, or even that a company is an entity that can have religion at all.
    Companies are people too, ya commie ba$ta3d.
    "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken." (stolen from TomF )

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    51,525

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    From the government perspective (taxes, etc) employees are not employed by an individual person, they are employed by a company.

    A person is guaranteed religious liberty by the constitution. I'm no legal scholar, but I think it's a stretch to assert that a company is afforded the same right, or even that a company is an entity that can have religion at all.
    And that will be an enormous pandora's box once opened……………...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Bradford, VT
    Posts
    6,403

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    I agree that the govt should be pretty silent on religious issues, and also tolerant, but hasn't it already granted a bunch? An exception, in my mind, would be for conscientious objectors in case the draft is reinstated.
    There could be others I have not thought of.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    25,626

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Religious exemptions should apply to what I am required to do for me, not what I should do for you.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    7,331

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Quote Originally Posted by S.V. Airlie View Post
    The 1st ten, what we call, the Bill of Rights. Disagreements are all about interpretation. The 2nd is the example there. Ammendments fall in a separate category as they usually added to it as explanations for 1-10. in my opinion
    As I said "for the most part they [every individual] is right"

    I am glad to see most people here have at least a high school level of understanding of the Constitution and religious freedom. Lacking any sort of revolution I would suggest that the Constitution including the 2nd amendment means almost exactly what the federal courts say it means. Currently businesses have some religious rights. Not what I would would like, but at least understandable.
    Life is complex.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    SA, TX
    Posts
    1,279

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    I'd sure like to have some freedom from religion. The Constitution allows freedom to practice religion not to impose it.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,778

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Quote Originally Posted by TXdoug View Post
    I'd sure like to have some freedom from religion. The Constitution allows freedom to practice religion not to impose it.
    Right my freedom ends where your's begins.
    Don't worry I'm happy

    "The law is what we have to live with.
    Justice is sometimes harder to achieve."

    Sherlock Holmes

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    50,299

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    The idea of a corporation having religious convictions is utter and complete absurdity.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    90,255

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The idea of a corporation having religious convictions is utter and complete absurdity.
    hey corporations are people too.

    What about Catholic hospitals? Should they be required to provide birth control and abortions to their employees.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Sharon, MA
    Posts
    20,698

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    I'm a lot more interested in the 'fringe disputes' regarding religious conviction. Sure, Catholics (or more properly, the Catholic Church) will oppose birth control and abortion, as will a number of other recognizable Christian sects... but these are all 'mainstream' religious affiliations.

    What about those who claim a religious or moral objection that is NOT founded in a mainstream or recognized religion? I wonder what the gov't would do in such a case.... support some weird, bizarre, or unconventional moral/religious objection to something... thereby truly respecting 'freedom of religion'... or maybe not?
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Avon Lake, Ohio USA
    Posts
    230

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    While I find it personally abhorrent that an employer would withhold birth control from anybody, and that said practice should not be legal, it is clear that this administration does not care about morality or that which is ethically good. Companies that would deny birth control to an individual apparently feel the same way. So if the government won't tackle it, let's let the market decide. Compile a list of those companies, encourage consumers to boycott them, and more importantly, encourage people not to work for that company. Perhaps a group could start a non-profit that could work with people who's employers pull shady religious liberty crap to deny them coverage, wages, or whatever else.

    I know that sounds extreme, but I honestly feel the only way to get anything done in this country policy wise is to hurt those that influence policy makers. Clearly, the average citizen by him or herself can only do so much. Our individual vote only matters so much. But if we were able organize a movement like that--almost like a new labor movement...though we wouldn't fight employers/companies who don't act in manner we like, we would simply forget they exist. Imagine if literally zero people were willing to work for a particular company.

    That isn't a reality now, because people are somewhat slaves to their jobs. The NEED their employment. Employers know this, and because we have about the lowest number of labor unions acting as a check on employer abuse sine the 1950's, they feel they can treat their employees pretty much as they wish. I would love to see some organization come along that would be connected enough to place people in positions with employers that are better than their previous one. Imagine if you had the ability to simply walk out of a job, because you knew you had another one waiting for you. Employer decides to deny you access to appropriate health care coverage? Bye Felicia! Employer denies you overtime pay? Bye Felicia! Simply walk out. If that could happen on a seriously national scale, maybe something could get done.

    Most likely a pipe dream, but maybe not. There are some well meaning billionaires that could fund the start up. I think it more depends on people wanting to do it.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Winnipeg MB
    Posts
    17,811

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    What about Catholic hospitals? Should they be required to provide birth control and abortions to their employees.
    If they provide health insurance, yes.

    (Of course, a universal single-payer system would eliminate this problem, but I'm sure everyone knows that.)

    What are you doing about it?




  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    35,177

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    It is interesting, the way one finds one's own particular sticking points. For me, it's "medical assistance in dying," not contraception - or even abortion.

    I think that an individual actually has the right to suicide, whether because they've some awful-to-them disease, or etc. I am unconvinced, though, that an individual who wishes to commit suicide has a right to have another do the killing for them. And I am rather firmly of the view that an individual who chooses medically assisted suicide does not have a right to determine the location where that service must be offered. We don't have such a right for any other medical service in a publicly funded system, eh?

    I can't decree that my cardiac surgery or lung transplant will happen in my city or even province, let alone compel a specific physician to do the job. When my youngest was born, the Edmonton hospital where his siblings were born no longer did obstetrics and we had to drive 20 minutes to the other side of town. That's legit, IMO. It's equally legit that many small hospitals across North America have stopped doing obstetrics, and that women need to go into a nearby city for delivery.

    In a publicly funded system, there is an obligation to ensure that an individual has timely access to a medically necessary service, but not to have every service provided in every location where it would even theoretically be practical. It is up to the public health administrators to do what they do respecting every other medical service - determine what appropriate access should be, and how it will be provided to their population base. Neither my physician son-in-law nor my hoping-to-be-physician son say they would themselves offer assisted dying. Neither can be compelled to deliver babies either, or prescribe opiates, or etc. Heck, even countries which have Capital Punishment for this or that crime cannot compel a specific justice system employee to be an executioner, and do not require that executions be conducted at every prison.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Winnipeg MB
    Posts
    17,811

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    That's interesting and nuanced, Tom, and I find myself in agreement.

    What are you doing about it?




  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    50,299

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    What about those who claim a religious or moral objection that is NOT founded in a mainstream or recognized religion? I wonder what the gov't would do in such a case.... support some weird, bizarre, or unconventional moral/religious objection to something... thereby truly respecting 'freedom of religion'... or maybe not?
    Mormons and polygamy is an obvious example, although the mainstream Mormons abandoned it in 1890.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Nashville TN
    Posts
    27,397

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    That's interesting and nuanced, Tom, and I find myself in agreement.

    Agree. Although I believe the two are related. Curiously, the same people opposed to a woman's right to choose are almost always opposed to assisted suicide.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    35,177

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Yeah. The folks whose "principled view" I tend to respect more are those who take a "seamless garment" approach to dispensing life/death. If one opposes abortion because one feels that it is unjustified to kill, I have more time if the same person applies the same view to assisted suicide and capital punishment. And in each case works hard to make any of the procedures unnecessary in anyone's view.

    I have long felt that the demand for medically assisted suicide is a "lag indicator," revealing the gaps in access to appropriate and high quality palliative care, and frankly in our practices of managing chronic conditions. The less afraid of an excruciating and dehumanizing dying process a population is, the less the demand for an abbreviation of it.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    2,585

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    The less afraid of an excruciating and dehumanizing dying process a population is, the less the demand for an abbreviation of it.
    Maybe I'm not following your line of thinking here. I've seen enough people die excruciating and dehumanizing deaths under hospice care to be of the opinion we treat our animals better in death than humans.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    35,177

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    To a degree that depends on the hospice, and the protocols for administering meds. The hospice two blocks away from us does amazing work, and typically does a very good job of threading the needle between doping someone beyond recognition and permitting undue suffering. My son volunteered there for a couple of years. Dying is no fun for most of us, but I do think that "a good death" can often happen without suicide - and that the demand for suicide rises in proportion to folks' belief in its likelihood.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    2,585

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    I don't mean to demonize all hospice care. I see folks in home hospice, which is probably a bit different than a clinical setting. As a healthcare provider for almost 20 years my nightmare (and that of many of my colleagues) is to spend the last months of my life bedridden, wearing a diaper in pain waiting for the end. If it comes to that, will I have the courage to push the plunger? I don't know. I'd prefer to go out of old age, in my sleep after a good sail.

    When I became a civil servant I willingly abrogated the right to pick and choose who and how I serve the community, everyone gets treated equally within the framework of laws we've established.

    It should be noted I lack a religious upbringing to color my thoughts on this.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    35,177

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Father of my neighbour across the street died the way I want. Spent the weekend skiing with his grandkids, and had a lovely dinner with the family that Sunday night. Monday morning the alarm went off at 7:30, and he had a heart attack. Gone in 20 minutes.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    7,331

    Default Re: Just how far should a religious exemption go?

    Quote Originally Posted by cglynn View Post
    While I find it personally abhorrent that an employer would withhold birth control from anybody, and that said practice should not be legal, it is clear that this administration does not care about morality or that which is ethically good. Companies that would deny birth control to an individual apparently feel the same way. So if the government won't tackle it, let's let the market decide. Compile a list of those companies, encourage consumers to boycott them, and more importantly, encourage people not to work for that company. Perhaps a group could start a non-profit that could work with people who's employers pull shady religious liberty crap to deny them coverage, wages, or whatever else.

    I know that sounds extreme, but I honestly feel the only way to get anything done in this country policy wise is to hurt those that influence policy makers. Clearly, the average citizen by him or herself can only do so much. Our individual vote only matters so much. But if we were able organize a movement like that--almost like a new labor movement...though we wouldn't fight employers/companies who don't act in manner we like, we would simply forget they exist. Imagine if literally zero people were willing to work for a particular company.

    That isn't a reality now, because people are somewhat slaves to their jobs. The NEED their employment. Employers know this, and because we have about the lowest number of labor unions acting as a check on employer abuse sine the 1950's, they feel they can treat their employees pretty much as they wish. I would love to see some organization come along that would be connected enough to place people in positions with employers that are better than their previous one. Imagine if you had the ability to simply walk out of a job, because you knew you had another one waiting for you. Employer decides to deny you access to appropriate health care coverage? Bye Felicia! Employer denies you overtime pay? Bye Felicia! Simply walk out. If that could happen on a seriously national scale, maybe something could get done.

    Most likely a pipe dream, but maybe not. There are some well meaning billionaires that could fund the start up. I think it more depends on people wanting to do it.
    Misconceptions abound.

    No employer withholds birth control from anyone. Pharmacies sell such products to anyone who walks in. I don't recall any employers standing guard so their employees cannot purchase such products. And their are charities that will provide free bith control.

    No employee is a "slave" to their employer. Anyone can walk out the door at anytime and walk in the door anywhere else to seek employment. I believe that is how most people got their first job. Very few are Shanghaied. Most people are happy with the compensation their jobs provide. If no one wants to hire them, they can start their own business.

    Perhaps you should spend your time with people including employees and employers who are supportive of your goals for the country. Let the others rot.
    Life is complex.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •