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Thread: The Election: three worrisome factors

  1. #36
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    First, Franklin almost certainly did not say that; it appears to be a fake quote. FWIW, here's a real one on a similar subject (source):

    “All the Property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other Laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it.”

    But neither here nor there. Your "Franklin" quote argues that any use of any taxes to help poor people (like Medicaid), or anything that shifts money from those who have more to those who have less, including progressive taxation, would 'herald the end of the republic.' This is, to be altogether too polite, utter and complete nonsense. You can take your Randian crap and stuff it where the sun don't shine.
    “Almost certainly”? Despite your deeply held disapproval, he most certainly thought it, knew it, and said it, at some time or another, whether documented or not. It’s the basis for restricting the vote to property owners.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    If there is a recession in the near future, trump will point out that it occurred after the Dems took Congress. Therefore it's their fault. The believers will lap it up.

    And the dims will blame him for it, even though Norman says we’re due for one, simply based on history.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    “Almost certainly”? Despite your deeply held disapproval, he most certainly thought it, knew it, and said it, at some time or another, whether documented or not. It’s the basis for restricting the vote to property owners.
    Boy, you are really old, if you discussed this with Franklin and he gave you his thoughts mdh.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    “Almost certainly”? Despite your deeply held disapproval, he most certainly thought it, knew it, and said it, at some time or another, whether documented or not. It’s the basis for restricting the vote to property owners.
    My disapproval is neither here nor there. It's fairly well-known as a made-up quote. A common form of dishonest argument involves falsely attributing an idea to a justly admired man. The genuine quote I posted seems to at least partially contradict it.

    But one thing's for certain: Franklin's long dead, and many of the common ideas of his time are now almost universally considered to be utterly repugnant.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    My disapproval is neither here nor there. It's fairly well-known as a made-up quote. A common form of dishonest argument involves falsely attributing an idea to a justly admired man. The genuine quote I posted seems to at least partially contradict it.

    But one thing's for certain: Franklin's long dead, and many of the common ideas of his time are now almost universally considered to be utterly repugnant.
    Kinda like slavery mdh.

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Now, here's an interesting statistic. Democrats apparently got 12 million more votes for senator than Republicans did, but won fewer seats. An illustration of how the senate favors lightly populated states.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-minority-rule

    And getting a majority of seats in the house required a large majority of the popular vote:

    http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...ing-brag-about

    Even if you can fix the problem with gerrymandering, the Republicans will retain an advantage in the senate.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    “Almost certainly”? Despite your deeply held disapproval, he most certainly thought it, knew it, and said it, at some time or another, whether documented or not. It’s the basis for restricting the vote to property owners.
    So, the evidence shows that the quote you gave us as evidence was fake, you still claim it's true, based on no evidence whatever.

    As to what Franklin thought, here's something he actually wrote:

    http://www.history.org/foundation/jo.../elections.cfm
    Today a man owns a jackass worth 50 dollars and he is entitled to vote; but before the next election the jackass dies. The man in the mean time has become more experienced, his knowledge of the principles of government, and his acquaintance with mankind, are more extensive, and he is therefore better qualified to make a proper selection of rulers—but the jackass is dead and the man cannot vote. Now gentlemen, pray inform me, in whom is the right of suffrage? In the man or in the jackass?
    When the founding fathers wrote about inalienable rights, they were referring to Locke's concept that we are all born owning ourselves, and being our own masters is not something we can give up, either. If I sell a chair, it lacks the capacity to care who uses it, but I cannot help but care who uses me. And that's all the property right anyone needs to have 'the rights of man.'

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Now gentlemen, pray inform me, in whom is the right of suffrage? In the man or in the jackass?
    Now that sounds like Benjamin Franklin.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    But on the otherhand this successful opposition came in good economic times, things may change.
    That's a good point. It seems the perception of a good economy goes a long way to inspire people to keep the incumbents in office. And the map was good enough... and the anti-Trump mobilization was large enough... that the Dems still mad inroads.
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Such a John Smith thread title.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Such a John Smith thread title.
    Why thank you... you silver-tongued devil, you!!
    David G
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    When the founding fathers wrote about inalienable rights, they were referring to Locke's concept that we are all born owning ourselves, and being our own masters is not something we can give up, either.
    Perhaps you failed to read the Constitution. Perhaps you failed to note that almost all of the early presidents owned others. Even Franklin owned slaves and thought they were inferior.

    Locke was certainly right, but few of the founding fathers appear to have believed so.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Fourth. What's with only half of the eligible population showing up to vote, when things are this important?
    Useless baggage.

    Fifth: Voter turnout among 18 to 29-year-olds in the 2018 midterm elections was 31 percent. -- https://www.postregister.com/news/lo...c636b6910.html

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Perhaps you failed to read the Constitution. Perhaps you failed to note that almost all of the early presidents owned others. Even Franklin owned slaves and thought they were inferior.

    Locke was certainly right, but few of the founding fathers appear to have believed so.
    Perhaps you failed to read a lot of things.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Perhaps you failed to read a lot of things.
    It has taken me decades of not reading to arrive at my current level of sceptic. I am not sure if it is better to not read or to misrepresent what is read. Most people tend to do both.

    In any case, I find it useful - as others do, to point out the folly of comments I disagree with.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Spreading misinformation, misinterpretation, self-centered analysis, and confusion... since (maybe 1940?)
    David G
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Perhaps you failed to read the Constitution. Perhaps you failed to note that almost all of the early presidents owned others. Even Franklin owned slaves and thought they were inferior.

    Locke was certainly right, but few of the founding fathers appear to have believed so.
    Locke' views on slavery changed during his lifetime, and the nation's views have changed as it evolved. Essentially, Locke' view that we are all born our own masters was a ticking bomb in the heart of our culture. As we recognized the humanity of various group, it became impossible to support the idea that slavery, an institution that had existed longer than writing, as near as we can tell, could be justified. As we have recognized the humanity of more groups, we have stopped treating them as things.

    Remember, as a young man, Locke wrote the constitution of South Carolina, which enshrined the institution of chattel slavery. As a much older man, he wrote in the Second Treatise of Government a chapter on what circumstances would justify forced labor, and it did not justify the type of slavery in which he had been complicit. By the time he wrote that we are all born owning ourselves, he was no longer complicit in slavery. He seems to have been that rare sort of person who became more radical as he got older.

    If you look at the Cornerstone Speech, given by the Confederate Vice President, you can see the out that the slaveholders used, claiming that their black slaves were not fully human. The racial history of our nation has been the effort of some to cling to this notion, and the effort of others to leave it behind.

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Locke' views on slavery changed during his lifetime, and the nation's views have changed as it evolved. Essentially, Locke' view that we are all born our own masters was a ticking bomb in the heart of our culture. As we recognized the humanity of various group, it became impossible to support the idea that slavery, an institution that had existed longer than writing, as near as we can tell, could be justified. As we have recognized the humanity of more groups, we have stopped treating them as things.

    Remember, as a young man, Locke wrote the constitution of South Carolina, which enshrined the institution of chattel slavery. As a much older man, he wrote in the Second Treatise of Government a chapter on what circumstances would justify forced labor, and it did not justify the type of slavery in which he had been complicit. By the time he wrote that we are all born owning ourselves, he was no longer complicit in slavery. He seems to have been that rare sort of person who became more radical as he got older.

    If you look at the Cornerstone Speech, given by the Confederate Vice President, you can see the out that the slaveholders used, claiming that their black slaves were not fully human. The racial history of our nation has been the effort of some to cling to this notion, and the effort of others to leave it behind.
    I'm sorry... your 'facts' do not fit the narrative. You are dismissed <G>
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Now that sounds like Benjamin Franklin.
    Given the nature of our ‘president ‘, the rights clearly reside with the jackass.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I'm sorry... your 'facts' do not fit the narrative. You are dismissed <G>
    "...and yet, it moves."

  21. #56
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    "...and yet, it moves."
    And there you go again... using your fancy-pants literary and cultural references...
    David G
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Hey, at least he posted int in 'Merkin. If he were really being fancy-pants elitist, it would have been 'Eppur si muove', and we would have been all like, 'Huh'? and he would have snickered.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Hey, at least he posted int in 'Merkin. If he were really being fancy-pants elitist, it would have been 'Eppur si muove', and we would have been all like, 'Huh'? and he would have snickered.
    Yes... you gotta give him credit, for sure. He does try to make allowances for us plebeians. And he really DOES try to keep the snickering to a minimum. He shows remarkable self-discipline. I don't know if he knows it, though, but he's still got work to do on his subtle eye-rolling <G>
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Locke' views on slavery changed during his lifetime, and the nation's views have changed as it evolved. Essentially, Locke' view that we are all born our own masters was a ticking bomb in the heart of our culture. As we recognized the humanity of various group, it became impossible to support the idea that slavery, an institution that had existed longer than writing, as near as we can tell, could be justified. As we have recognized the humanity of more groups, we have stopped treating them as things.

    Remember, as a young man, Locke wrote the constitution of South Carolina, which enshrined the institution of chattel slavery. As a much older man, he wrote in the Second Treatise of Government a chapter on what circumstances would justify forced labor, and it did not justify the type of slavery in which he had been complicit. By the time he wrote that we are all born owning ourselves, he was no longer complicit in slavery. He seems to have been that rare sort of person who became more radical as he got older.

    If you look at the Cornerstone Speech, given by the Confederate Vice President, you can see the out that the slaveholders used, claiming that their black slaves were not fully human. The racial history of our nation has been the effort of some to cling to this notion, and the effort of others to leave it behind.
    I made a comment about "founding fathers wrote about inalienable rights." You defend Locke. Amazing.

    I noticed you left off any temporal reference. Locke was dead long before the US Constitution was written. Dead long before the founding fathers were reading philosophy. Dead long before a long series of slave owning presidents. They had the choice of adopting Locke's later beliefs. They had the choice of respecting those "inalienable rights." Instead they chose to mislead through words and practice. "All men" meant white men. Not blacks or women. It meant that at the time of the signing of the Constitution. And for many it still means it today.

    You, certainly, have a better grasp on history than I do. You should use it.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Do I detect the first tremors.

    The beginning of a THUNDEROUS eye-roll??
    David G
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I made a comment about "founding fathers wrote about inalienable rights." You defend Locke. Amazing.
    "All men" meant white men. Not blacks or women. It meant that at the time of the signing of the Constitution. And for many it still means it today.
    Care to take a stab at interpreting the bible for us while you're at it?

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    I thoroughly disagree with the OP's inference. This election was a positive step forward in every metric.

    I've ben saying here to little effect that the "youth" vote (not the burbs) is where the next big pick up has to happen. That's a lot of fertile ground.
    Towards this and for but one suggestion may I immodestly again suggest that Dems get behind a national initiative to legalize weed? You WILL bring them out.

    The Senatorial election map was entirely stacked against the Dems. TN? a non starter. GA? Remarkable results. We're talking GA here folks where thje Sec. of State ran for office AND controlled the ballot box. But it's irrelevant if statistics matter. In the next election more Republican seats will be at risk than Dems. Who thinks Susan Collins has a chance in Maine?

    It's incredibly disturbing that progressives didn't sweep every race and more so that we have an electorate that is both unreliable and so often misinformed. All that is up for grabs in two years. The tide is against the criminals and that was proven this cycle. Now it's up to Dems to be bold and be smart. It will take new thinking that is past time to implement. Appealing to fundamentals and "originalists" is a waste of time. In for a penny, in for a pound, so stop playing to the middle. There is no middle.

    Who cares about how the reds massage the numbers to assuage their drubbing in the House, the state houses and the gubernatorial races? Don and Sarah themselves know better. Finally some oversight.

    A very big win, even if not the knock out blow. Just get on with it wimpy and stop snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Yeah, too bad about the south and certain parts of the midwest. What were you expecting?
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I made a comment about "founding fathers wrote about inalienable rights." You defend Locke. Amazing.

    I noticed you left off any temporal reference. Locke was dead long before the US Constitution was written. Dead long before the founding fathers were reading philosophy. Dead long before a long series of slave owning presidents. They had the choice of adopting Locke's later beliefs. They had the choice of respecting those "inalienable rights." Instead they chose to mislead through words and practice. "All men" meant white men. Not blacks or women. It meant that at the time of the signing of the Constitution. And for many it still means it today.

    You, certainly, have a better grasp on history than I do. You should use it.
    I do use my grasp of history. That's why I know that the founders based their ideas on Locke's writing, and didn't need to talk to him in person to absorb his ideas. The date of his death is irrelevant.

    As for the rest of what you've written, try reading the text you quoted more carefully, so that you can respond to what I've actually said.

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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    I thoroughly disagree with the OP's inference. This election was a positive step forward in every metric.

    I've ben saying here to little effect that the "youth" vote (not the burbs) is where the next big pick up has to happen. That's a lot of fertile ground.
    Towards this and for but one suggestion may I immodestly again suggest that Dems get behind a national initiative to legalize weed? You WILL bring them out.

    The Senatorial election map was entirely stacked against the Dems. TN? a non starter. GA? Remarkable results. We're talking GA here folks where thje Sec. of State ran for office AND controlled the ballot box. But it's irrelevant if statistics matter. In the next election more Republican seats will be at risk than Dems. Who thinks Susan Collins has a chance in Maine?

    It's incredibly disturbing that progressives didn't sweep every race and more so that we have an electorate that is both unreliable and so often misinformed. All that is up for grabs in two years. The tide is against the criminals and that was proven this cycle. Now it's up to Dems to be bold and be smart. It will take new thinking that is past time to implement. Appealing to fundamentals and "originalists" is a waste of time. In for a penny, in for a pound, so stop playing to the middle. There is no middle.

    Who cares about how the reds massage the numbers to assuage their drubbing in the House, the state houses and the gubernatorial races? Don and Sarah themselves know better. Finally some oversight.

    A very big win, even if not the knock out blow. Just get on with it wimpy and stop snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Yeah, too bad about the south and certain parts of the midwest. What were you expecting?
    I'm with you 100%. Especially on proactively courting the youth vote. Find issues they can't or won't ignore. Weed. College tuition and loans. Single-payer universal health care not attached to employers. Rural Internet access. Sell them on a practical platform. These are all things that the party faithful either favor already, or can live with. Prioritize them and pick up millions of young voters who will likely vote Democratic for 50 years.

    Tom
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    I thoroughly disagree with the OP's inference. This election was a positive step forward in every metric.

    I've ben saying here to little effect that the "youth" vote (not the burbs) is where the next big pick up has to happen. That's a lot of fertile ground.
    Towards this and for but one suggestion may I immodestly again suggest that Dems get behind a national initiative to legalize weed? You WILL bring them out.

    The Senatorial election map was entirely stacked against the Dems. TN? a non starter. GA? Remarkable results. We're talking GA here folks where thje Sec. of State ran for office AND controlled the ballot box. But it's irrelevant if statistics matter. In the next election more Republican seats will be at risk than Dems. Who thinks Susan Collins has a chance in Maine?

    It's incredibly disturbing that progressives didn't sweep every race and more so that we have an electorate that is both unreliable and so often misinformed. All that is up for grabs in two years. The tide is against the criminals and that was proven this cycle. Now it's up to Dems to be bold and be smart. It will take new thinking that is past time to implement. Appealing to fundamentals and "originalists" is a waste of time. In for a penny, in for a pound, so stop playing to the middle. There is no middle.

    Who cares about how the reds massage the numbers to assuage their drubbing in the House, the state houses and the gubernatorial races? Don and Sarah themselves know better. Finally some oversight.

    A very big win, even if not the knock out blow. Just get on with it wimpy and stop snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Yeah, too bad about the south and certain parts of the midwest. What were you expecting?
    Not sure what inference you are drawing and objecting to.

    But maybe break it down... do you disagree with any of the following --

    1. The 'blue wave' was not as large as it might have been?

    2. The electoral system is currently tilted toward R's? It might bear some scrutiny, with eye toward modernization?

    3. Gerrymandered districts currently favor R's unfairly... and we should 'more fair' them?

    4. R's have recently engaged in a lot of voter suppression? It's tilted things toward the R's? Even in those cases where it's not illegal... it IS treasonous?
    David G
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Not sure what inference you are drawing and objecting to.

    But maybe break it down... do you disagree with any of the following --

    1. The 'blue wave' was not as large as it might have been?

    2. The electoral system is currently tilted toward R's? It might bear some scrutiny, with eye toward modernization?

    3. Gerrymandered districts currently favor R's unfairly... and we should 'more fair' them?

    4. R's have recently engaged in a lot of voter suppression? It's tilted things toward the R's? Even in those cases where it's not illegal... it IS treasonous?
    Agree with everything but point one. To be fair, I could agree with that too and bemoan that it would have been ideal to recover the Senate. But with the map as it was that was never going to happen and if we're honest with ourselves we all knew it and it was nothing more or less than was predicted by the polls. Which this year, got it mostly right. . Except for Bredesen even the Senate races were competitive in areas where they had no right to be(GA, TX AZ MT) . Again, this is in consideration of the reality of the map and where the elections were being held.

    Can I imagine how much more of a drubbing the Reds would have had were it not for the other points you make? Of course I can. But as it stands the results were not disappointing. The reds cheat, lie and held the cards and still they couldn't beat the numbers. That's impressive.

    But enough celebrating. It's time to take a page from the Red playbook, accept the victory we achieved and look forward to commanding the issues that will matter in 2020. Trumpism remains a dangerous force with plenty of potential to do lasting damage. The reality is that he will be tough to beat but we see the chink in the armor and it can be widened with truth and plain speaking as the main weapons.

    It is up to blues to speak out and acknowledge what's real, shut up regarding what ain't and in so doing win again in 2020. It will be done if we have the courage of our convictions. Despite all the obstacles you outlined we brought it home for a big win. I'm encouraged and you should be too. Now's the time to double down on the fresh faces and "time has come" ideas.
    When they say they won, they lie. They lost and lost big. The list of firsts (most women, women Muslims, new faces) is impressive and all in the face of a stacked deck.

    There is a lot of power lined up against truth, justice and the American way and there's no denying that but damn it man, we won.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Not sure what inference you are drawing and objecting to.

    But maybe break it down... do you disagree with any of the following --

    1. The 'blue wave' was not as large as it might have been?

    2. The electoral system is currently tilted toward R's? It might bear some scrutiny, with eye toward modernization?

    3. Gerrymandered districts currently favor R's unfairly... and we should 'more fair' them?

    4. R's have recently engaged in a lot of voter suppression? It's tilted things toward the R's? Even in those cases where it's not illegal... it IS treasonous?
    I'll take issue with #2. The system grants disproportionate Senate representation to RURAL voters, who happen to vote Republican more often.

    If Democrats pushed an infrastructure package to reach out to rural Americans, that could be changed. And if they sold single-payer healthcare well, that might help, too; all those ranchers suddenly not paying premiums, or business owners no longer having to provide health care for employees?

    Rural does not have to mean Republican.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  33. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I do use my grasp of history. That's why I know that the founders based their ideas on Locke's writing, and didn't need to talk to him in person to absorb his ideas. The date of his death is irrelevant.
    I never mentioned talking to him. But I think the timeline is important. I simply pointed out that the founders and the subsequent US presidents had the ability to know how his views changed over his lifetime. And that they chose words that reflected his later views - inalienable rights and equality, but practiced his earlier views - support for slavery and superiority of the white race. I also pointed out this country has done the same to the present date.

    Back when I was young, I fell for the history that is commonly presented in school of the founders and early presidents as icons who should be emulated. It seems you are in favor of excusing their actions.

    I seem to have covered what I quoted. Perhaps not with the slant you would have liked.
    Life is complex.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Cris - here's an example of the dynamic I'm perceiving --

    When Medicaid Expands, More People Vote


    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/08/u...-increase.html
    That makes perfect sense.
    I would guess that most people who do not vote have a 'what difference would it make' attitude.
    But when they see the machinery of the state working for them, in a very material way, they have skin in the game.

    Its the nonsense of small government. Small government means fewer people engaged, and so the minority with the strings can pull them unfettered by democracy.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  35. #70
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    Nashville TN
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    Default Re: The Election: three worrisome factors

    I find discussions of Founder's intents and their failings as human beings tedious.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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