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Thread: Another multiple shooting today

  1. #211
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by sleek View Post
    Very very well hidden. And the truck is very very noticable and unique.
    Don't be daft. Everybody on this forum has learned today that you have guns in your truck. Who else, in your hometown, may have been party to your careless macho boasting? And your truck is noticeable and unique - go figure.
    It’s really hard to define ‘virtue signalling’, as I was saying the other day to some of my Muslim friends over a fair-trade coffee in our local feminist bookshop. (Lucy Porter 2018)

  2. #212
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    In a recent thread, I mentioned that someone with a PhD in neuroscience disagreed with your beliefs about human brains. Your response was an arrogant insult to them.

    It is ridiculously hypocritical that you can insult the knowledge of someone with many years of rigorous scientific training, including obtaining a PhD through top universities in two countries, and then insult the knowledge of someone on another thread because you reckon they lack experience, knowledge and interest.

    A reasonable person either acknowledges research, knowledge and experience or doesn't. You rejected the experience, knowledge and research of someone with a PhD when it suited you, and now you are claiming to know more because of your own experience, knowledge and interest when it suits your purposes. That is illogical, hypocritical and just plain silly.

    You can't have it both ways. Either those with more experience and knowledge have the upper hand, or they don't.
    Knowlege and experience are wonderful, and everyone should get more of both. Having them doesn't automatically make a person perfect or correct. Your friend with the Ph.D. Isn't automatically correct simply because she has a Ph.D.
    On that subject I am still waiting on her take on nuroplastisity and conversion therapy, since, at least by your explanation of her reasearch, any difference in male and female brains is created by culture rather than biological means.

    I don't claim to be an expert on anything. I do obviously have more experience and interest in this field than the person I am conversing with. I am perfectly happy to be challenged in my views as long as the argument is based on reality. I do try to explain why I think what I think, rather than just saying he should agree with me because I'm more knowledgeable.

    By the way, I never insulted your phd friend, I insulted the assertion that you made.

  3. #213
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Long time ago when my truck was stolen in Oakland the first thing the police asked was whether I had guns in it. I thought it was the oddest question ever.

  4. #214
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by sleek View Post
    Not daft. Yall dont know it, where im at, or will be. No macho boasting. Was making a point, then forgot to follow up with it. Point was, we arent walking around shaking with fear and fingers on the trigger. We arent worried BECAUSE we have guns.
    If you got young children or grandchildren you damned well should be.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  5. #215
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by sleek View Post
    I have a 12 year old son. He was 5 whrn my house got broke into. My wife and son were home when it happened. The next week a guy tried to beat down the door demanding my wife let him in. Thats when i decided gun ownership was important to the safety and security of my family.
    Strong locks would be a better defence. Remember the stats that say guns in the home for "self defence" make you less safe, not more.
    I didnt keep it loaded around my son but made certain he saw it every day. It was next to the bed, the night stand, the floor in my bedroom, everywhere in the house I was. As a result he was never curios about it as it was as common place to him as the kitchen chair or table lamp. Now that he is 12, he has shot rifles and shot guns. He us more accurate than I am. I trust him with them, but I font want to ever wish I didnt, so the ammo goes in a different location and now due to him having a bully pick on him at school, i hide the guns as well. He is getting very angry at this bully, and I am now thinking about giving my guns to my neighbor until this situation is resolved. Thats why they are with me in my truck.
    Is my son the type to kill people? I hope like hell not. I dont think he is either. But im listening to my son talk about being bullied, and how this bully is picking on a friend girl to the point she threatened to kill herself. These things bring up strong emotions in my son, and emotion is not often accompanied by logic.

    Nick, i hope you see now exactly what and why things are with me and why i do what I do.
    Have you raised this with the school? They have a duty of care and allowing a bully to operate is failing in that care. Ditto the bully's parents.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  6. #216
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Knowlege and experience are wonderful, and everyone should get more of both. Having them doesn't automatically make a person perfect or correct. Your friend with the Ph.D. Isn't automatically correct simply because she has a Ph.D.
    On that subject I am still waiting on her take on nuroplastisity and conversion therapy, since, at least by your explanation of her reasearch, any difference in male and female brains is created by culture rather than biological means.

    I don't claim to be an expert on anything. I do obviously have more experience and interest in this field than the person I am conversing with. I am perfectly happy to be challenged in my views as long as the argument is based on reality. I do try to explain why I think what I think, rather than just saying he should agree with me because I'm more knowledgeable.

    By the way, I never insulted your phd friend, I insulted the assertion that you made.
    You're still behaving inconsistently; you told Ralphie to get practical experience with guns so he could understand them, but then reject the knowledge of someone with (apparently) much more practical experience than you in carrying out EEG studies on brains and similar work.

    Although it's off topic I will add that the Doc (my wife) says that, as with gender differences, there is no strong evidence for physical differences in brains being related to sexual preference. That may be due to technical issues with EEG and other analysis which she outlined to me, but since your reaction to those who you disagree with starts by insulting their information as "laughable" I shan't bother to go further into it. The point is that you are claiming the expert's high ground when it suits you, but then insulting those with greater expertise when it suits you.
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-11-2018 at 08:01 PM.

  7. #217
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by sleek View Post
    I have a 12 year old son. He was 5 whrn my house got broke into. My wife and son were home when it happened. The next week a guy tried to beat down the door demanding my wife let him in. Thats when i decided gun ownership was important to the safety and security of my family. I didnt keep it loaded around my son but made certain he saw it every day. It was next to the bed, the night stand, the floor in my bedroom, everywhere in the house I was. As a result he was never curios about it as it was as common place to him as the kitchen chair or table lamp. Now that he is 12, he has shot rifles and shot guns. He us more accurate than I am. I trust him with them, but I font want to ever wish I didnt, so the ammo goes in a different location and now due to him having a bully pick on him at school, i hide the guns as well. He is getting very angry at this bully, and I am now thinking about giving my guns to my neighbor until this situation is resolved. Thats why they are with me in my truck.
    Is my son the type to kill people? I hope like hell not. I dont think he is either. But im listening to my son talk about being bullied, and how this bully is picking on a friend girl to the point she threatened to kill herself. These things bring up strong emotions in my son, and emotion is not often accompanied by logic.

    Nick, i hope you see now exactly what and why things are with me and why i do what I do.
    So it seems you're alive to the danger of strong emotions and access to guns, but what happens to the people who suffer such emotions and still have access to guns? If, as you implicitly agree, guns are dangerous when emotions run high then why have so many of them around the place?

    The other day in Australia we had someone whose emotions ran so high that he tried to make his car into a bomb and ran amok with a knife in a crowded city street. He killed just one person. How many more would he have killed if he had access to guns?

  8. #218
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    When my 3 daughters turned into pretty teenagers we had a lot of boys dropping by. As I remembered being a boy and being VERY interested in guns I decided having my little Browning semi auto in the house, even in 2 pieces and the ammo hidden was a temptation I didn't need in the house. So I gave it to a childless friend.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  9. #219
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    You're still behaving inconsistently; you told Ralphie to get practical experience with guns so he could understand them, but then reject the knowledge of someone with (apparently) much more practical experience than you in carrying out EEG studies on brains and similar work.

    Although it's off topic I will add that the Doc (my wife) says that, as with gender differences, there is no strong evidence for physical differences in brains being related to sexual preference. That may be due to technical issues with EEG and other analysis which she outlined to me, but since your reaction to those who you disagree with starts by insulting their information as "laughable" I shan't bother to go further into it. The point is that you are claiming the expert's high ground when it suits you, but then insulting those with greater expertise when it suits you.
    I wouldn't say I'm behaving inconsistently at all. I am no expert on firearms, but I think I know more about them and have more experience with them than Ralphie. He has asserted that in various ways, an institution of firearms limitations or full bans will reduce the number of mass shootings. I disagree with that, but rather than just saying "my expert says...." I have tried to explain the reasons behind my take on the problem. I have suggested to Ralphie that he gain more firearms experience, but I didn't tell him what he should get from that experience. I didn't tell him what to think, I told him what he could do to gain more insight, knowing that if he does, he will learn some things that will challenge his preconceptions. However, I could be entirely wrong, and it could turn out that his experience is greater than mine.

    In your case, you made a radical assertion, saying that there were no differences in male or female brains other than culturally created ones. I don't recall the post saying physical differences, but I may be wrong. I said it was laughable, but yes, that was a bad choice of words. What I should have said is "that's hard to believe, considering my limited knowledge of present understanding of brain chemistry, can you cite papers or studies to that effect?"
    i don't doubt that your wife is an expert in her field. I don't doubt that she knows more than me about it. But if you want to convince me, argue your point with facts, not just "my expert says". What papers and studies are cited may be well above my level of understanding, but perhaps I can glean enough to understand your take on it. I'm not completely dim, although you may argue that point as well if you wish.

  10. #220
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    So it seems you're alive to the danger of strong emotions and access to guns, but what happens to the people who suffer such emotions and still have access to guns? If, as you implicitly agree, guns are dangerous when emotions run high then why have so many of them around the place?

    The other day in Australia we had someone whose emotions ran so high that he tried to make his car into a bomb and ran amok with a knife in a crowded city street. He killed just one person. How many more would he have killed if he had access to guns?
    Less than if he had access to more bomb making skills.

  11. #221
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by sleek View Post
    Right now in my truck i have a 410 shotgun, a 44 mag lever action, a 44 mag revolver, and multiple long knives. What am I afraid of? Not a God damned thing
    And right there Ladies and Gentlemen is the reason we will never see significant Gun Law changes any time soon.
    The fear is so ingrained that it has been normalised by so many that they can no longer even recognise or acknowledge it.
    I'm not afraid of any God damned thing either.....and I don't need to carry an arsenal around in my vehicle with me.
    I once thought I was wrong, but I was wrong, I wasn't wrong.

  12. #222
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    I said it was laughable, but yes, that was a bad choice of words. What I should have said is "that's hard to believe, considering my limited knowledge of present understanding of brain chemistry, can you cite papers or studies to that effect?"
    i don't doubt that your wife is an expert in her field. I don't doubt that she knows more than me about it. But if you want to convince me, argue your point with facts, not just "my expert says". What papers and studies are cited may be well above my level of understanding, but perhaps I can glean enough to understand your take on it. I'm not completely dim, although you may argue that point as well if you wish.
    You raised the issue of brain structure in a post to DownTheCreek. If you can raise the issue without citing papers or studies, it can be rebutted by an expert without citing them. I know enough about the subject to know that it's unclear as even things like skin thickness increased by balding has an effect on readings (which is why I have repeatedly used terms like "clear evidence") and while I appreciate that you acknowledged your language was unfortunate, given your earlier reaction I'm not going to hassle her for a list of citations to rebut a claim you made with no such evidence.

    Anyway, I shall leave it at that.
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-12-2018 at 04:52 AM.

  13. #223
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Less than if he had access to more bomb making skills.
    If he had both working bombs and guns, even more people would probably have died than if he had just bomb making skills and a knife.

  14. #224
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    WHY is the 2nd amendment, through real-world outcomes, allowed to trump (!) the allegedly unalienable "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" that the Declaration of Independence enshrines the government to uphold?

    Clearly, any innocent gun victim has had these three rights taken away from them. Surely it should be your government's primary aim to live up to the Declaration and vastly alter (or ditch) the 2nd Amendment?

    Confused Andy
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie 2 View Post
    And right there Ladies and Gentlemen is the reason we will never see significant Gun Law changes any time soon.
    The fear is so ingrained that it has been normalised by so many that they can no longer even recognise or acknowledge it.
    I'm not afraid of any God damned thing either.....and I don't need to carry an arsenal around in my vehicle with me.
    not even a knife?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  16. #226
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    not even a knife?
    No Paul......not even a knife.
    I once thought I was wrong, but I was wrong, I wasn't wrong.

  17. #227
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    You raised the issue of brain structure in a post to DownTheCreek. If you can raise the issue without citing papers or studies, it can be rebutted by an expert without citing them. I know enough about the subject to know that it's unclear as even things like skin thickness increased by balding has an effect on readings (which is why I have repeatedly used terms like "clear evidence") and while I appreciate that you acknowledged your language was unfortunate, given your earlier reaction I'm not going to hassle her for a list of citations to rebut a claim you made with no such evidence.

    Anyway, I shall leave it at that.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2711771/

    https://medfreecon.com/2018/06/23/br...really-varied/

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...etween-genders

    https://www.the-scientist.com/featur...he-brain-34758


    The first 4 hits on Google, without selecting for content. Your post challenges the mainstream understanding of sex differences in brains, so it's up to you as to whether you want to back up your assertion or not. If not, it's a baseless post.


    Edited to add your post:
    Chris249
    Senior Member


    Join DateJun 2013Posts2,417


    Re: Sexism, rape culture, modern feminism and everything else you've been wondering a

    Why should DTC think biology is involved? As my friendly local neuroscientist just advised me, there's no real evidence that there's a difference in female and male brains; due to neuroplasticity, any changes that are observed may be the product of society's treatment of gender roles rather than the cause of same.





    I'd be happy if you did leave it alone, since you are the one following me around rather than the inverse.
    Last edited by Decourcy; 11-12-2018 at 09:55 PM.

  18. #228
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie 2 View Post
    No Paul......not even a knife.
    I pray you never find yourself wishing you had one. I hope i never have occasion to need mine.

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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    I use a knife every day ... inflicting terrible damage to culprits as diverse as packing tape, oranges, string, pencils ...
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I use a knife every day ... inflicting terrible damage to culprits as diverse as packing tape, oranges, string, pencils ...
    And only the guilty ones right

  21. #231
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Peel them all and let Tom sort them out.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    I'd be happy if you did leave it alone, since you are the one following me around rather than the inverse.
    Well, I'm not going to leave THAT unanswered. No, I'm not following you around - I am reading the forum threads just like you.

    As far as the other stuff goes, I noted the issue of brain plasticity earlier. It is also noted here, in articles written by specialists rather than the MDs in two of the pieces you quoted;

    From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6013760/;

    " Thus, there is no strong evidence available supporting the existence of a typical “female” or “male” brain.....in the context of modern plasticity research, we must take considerably more account of the fact that the brain can adapt and change anatomically and functionally through practice and learning 5, 8. Therefore, it could be possible that male and female brains might change their structure and functions because of their different experiences and because they are exposed to different social environments."

    From Science Direct's journal "Neuron"
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627311010439

    "The notion that sex differences in the brain, because they are biological, are necessarily innate or fixed is perhaps the most insidious of the many public misunderstandings on this topic. Neuroscientists know that, in the absence of proof of genetic or hormonal influence, any sex difference in adult neural structure or function could be shaped through experience, practice, and neural plasticity."

    Or from a less technical source; "There's no such thing as a male or female brain, study shows" at https://www.statnews.com/2015/11/30/...-female-study/ . As this source notes, “we’re still debating the question of whether there are sex differences in the [human] brain and whether they make any difference,” said neuroscientist Bruce McEwen of Rockefeller University, a longtime leader in the field...perhaps the key fact is this, McEwen said: Brains belong to people who have lived for decades in societies that treat men and women differently and gave them different experiences and opportunities. Experiences change the structure and function of the brain, as the many discoveries in the field of neuroplasticity show. “The male-female mosaic might reflect how these brains lived,” said McEwen..."

    Now, to bring this back to the thread topic - let's apply your approach from your post 227, and look at the first four results on whether gun control works on Google.

    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/does-gun-control-work-2018-2?r=US&IR=T gives a strong "yes".

    http://www.center4research.org/does-...l-really-work/ speaks of the limited research and notes " there is research that suggests that stricter gun-control laws may help."

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/201803/does-gun-control-work speaks of an "overwhelming" amount of evidence that restrictions on gun ownership reduce gun-related deaths and homicides.

    The fourth most popular Google result, Just Facts, doesn't seem to come to any broad conclusion but does point to some countries and states where gun control laws didn't seem to reduce homicides.

    So, if we take the approach you in post 227, it seems that most sources indicate that gun control laws work. I will, however, agree with your claim that there are many cultural differences that are also relevant.

    Last edited by Chris249; 11-13-2018 at 08:09 PM.

  23. #233
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I use a knife every day ... inflicting terrible damage to culprits as diverse as packing tape, oranges, string, pencils ...
    I am a Meat Inspector.....I use knives every day too.
    Very sharp ones!!!
    I once thought I was wrong, but I was wrong, I wasn't wrong.

  24. #234
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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    I wouldn't say I'm behaving inconsistently at all. I am no expert on firearms, but I think I know more about them and have more experience with them than Ralphie. He has asserted that in various ways, an institution of firearms limitations or full bans will reduce the number of mass shootings. I disagree with that, but rather than just saying "my expert says...." I have tried to explain the reasons behind my take on the problem. I have suggested to Ralphie that he gain more firearms experience, but I didn't tell him what he should get from that experience. I didn't tell him what to think, I told him what he could do to gain more insight, knowing that if he does, he will learn some things that will challenge his preconceptions. However, I could be entirely wrong, and it could turn out that his experience is greater than mine.

    In your case, you made a radical assertion, saying that there were no differences in male or female brains other than culturally created ones. I don't recall the post saying physical differences, but I may be wrong. I said it was laughable, but yes, that was a bad choice of words. What I should have said is "that's hard to believe, considering my limited knowledge of present understanding of brain chemistry, can you cite papers or studies to that effect?"
    i don't doubt that your wife is an expert in her field. I don't doubt that she knows more than me about it. But if you want to convince me, argue your point with facts, not just "my expert says". What papers and studies are cited may be well above my level of understanding, but perhaps I can glean enough to understand your take on it. I'm not completely dim, although you may argue that point as well if you wish.
    For what it's worth I have quite a bit of shooting experience, just never shot a Glock. I'm probably a better shot than you. I suppose you assumed because I'm for greater gun control that I must have no or little experience with firearms. I just think a lot of the modern firearms today are fine for a battlefield, but completely ridiculous and super dangerous for the average person. Just out of curiousity, what did you think I might learn by firing that particular weapon?

    Ralphie

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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Regarding brains, male and female. The brain structure may be the same but the animal is certainly not………….. Basic function for instance, you know, the chromosome thing………….and then there's hormones……….

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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post


    Well, I'm not going to leave THAT unanswered. No, I'm not following you around - I am reading the forum threads just like you.

    As far as the other stuff goes, I noted the issue of brain plasticity earlier. It is also noted here, in articles written by specialists rather than the MDs in two of the pieces you quoted;

    From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6013760/;

    " Thus, there is no strong evidence available supporting the existence of a typical “female” or “male” brain.....in the context of modern plasticity research, we must take considerably more account of the fact that the brain can adapt and change anatomically and functionally through practice and learning 5, 8. Therefore, it could be possible that male and female brains might change their structure and functions because of their different experiences and because they are exposed to different social environments."

    From Science Direct's journal "Neuron"
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627311010439

    "The notion that sex differences in the brain, because they are biological, are necessarily innate or fixed is perhaps the most insidious of the many public misunderstandings on this topic. Neuroscientists know that, in the absence of proof of genetic or hormonal influence, any sex difference in adult neural structure or function could be shaped through experience, practice, and neural plasticity."

    Or from a less technical source; "There's no such thing as a male or female brain, study shows" at https://www.statnews.com/2015/11/30/...-female-study/ . As this source notes, “we’re still debating the question of whether there are sex differences in the [human] brain and whether they make any difference,” said neuroscientist Bruce McEwen of Rockefeller University, a longtime leader in the field...perhaps the key fact is this, McEwen said: Brains belong to people who have lived for decades in societies that treat men and women differently and gave them different experiences and opportunities. Experiences change the structure and function of the brain, as the many discoveries in the field of neuroplasticity show. “The male-female mosaic might reflect how these brains lived,” said McEwen..."

    Now, to bring this back to the thread topic - let's apply your approach from your post 227, and look at the first four results on whether gun control works on Google.

    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/does-gun-control-work-2018-2?r=US&IR=T gives a strong "yes".

    http://www.center4research.org/does-...l-really-work/ speaks of the limited research and notes " there is research that suggests that stricter gun-control laws may help."

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/201803/does-gun-control-work speaks of an "overwhelming" amount of evidence that restrictions on gun ownership reduce gun-related deaths and homicides.

    The fourth most popular Google result, Just Facts, doesn't seem to come to any broad conclusion but does point to some countries and states where gun control laws didn't seem to reduce homicides.

    So, if we take the approach you in post 227, it seems that most sources indicate that gun control laws work. I will, however, agree with your claim that there are many cultural differences that are also relevant.


    I see see I have some reading to do. Time is tight right now for reasons that I just started a thread on, but I'll get back to you. I'll likely take it to PM, to keep it from distracting this threads topic.

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    Default Re: Another multiple shooting today

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    For what it's worth I have quite a bit of shooting experience, just never shot a Glock. I'm probably a better shot than you. I suppose you assumed because I'm for greater gun control that I must have no or little experience with firearms. I just think a lot of the modern firearms today are fine for a battlefield, but completely ridiculous and super dangerous for the average person. Just out of curiousity, what did you think I might learn by firing that particular weapon?

    Ralphie
    Ok, my mistake. I assumed less experience than me partly because you hadn't used the single most popular pistol type in your country today. When I suggested range time, it wasn't for the Glock in particular, but simply to handle and fire as many types as possible. Many people unfamiliar with guns don't realize, for instance, how difficult it is to be accurate with a pistol. If you are experienced, you already know that. Most people unfamiliar with guns don't know how hard it is to hit anything with a select fire weapon in full auto, particularly if it isn't in a small caliber.

    I suspect many on this board have very little experience.

    Perhaps you are a better shot than me. I never claimed to be a good shot. Shall we post each other some targets that we shoot at with say .38 special at 25 meters?

    As to experience with gun types, I have bought and sold many hundreds. Do you hunt? Ever shot at a moving target?

    As to modern firearms, say an AR-15, what makes it different than a mini-14, or a BAR etc?
    After ww2, most people gravitated towards the types of rifle used in that conflict as sporting rifles, both semi auto and bolt.
    Now, an AK type, or AR type, or one of the other types around the world, is the most common because people are familiar with them. I don't own an AR, since they are classed as restricted here (range use only), and I don't see the point. If they were classed as non-restricted, I would own one simply because they are a brilliant piece of engineering. AK types are prohibited here by name.

    My own personal preferences in firearms is older designs. I like lever guns, black powder, single shot and double barrels rifles. Older steel pistol designs (particularly savage and FN offering. I never hunt with more than 3 cartridges in my bolt or lever guns, and have never used more than one. Others hunt with a semi auto with 2 full magazines and an extra box in their bag. I don't have a problem with that. As long as they follow the rules.

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