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Thread: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

  1. #1
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    Default Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Dear Members,

    I have Thomas Gilmer's Blue Moon replica 22 feet gaff cutter yawl. I am happy with my boat and Last years I sailed Aegean sea with her.
    My maximum single hand sailing range is 87 nautic miles per day and ofcourse it was tired litlle bit To increase my range and confort for my family and friends olso.

    For long sail trips with my friends , we apply " hot bed " style sailing. such sailing is non stop sailing with 3 sailors , I and 2 friends. During the sailing , one of us sleepeng and the others manage the boat. Every six hours , one of us wake up the sleeping one and he strats to sleep ! we called this method as " hot bed " sailing method.

    Last one year, I am looking for a new boat bigger than Blue Moon with same style but no more than 30 feets.

    Last weekend , I was reading some documents in a blog , and I saw Wharram's wing sail. Infact, it is a gaff rig but Ge change and develop the gaff rig and named as wing sails. I like the way of solution and I start to investigate his catamaran designs. I know him before but as a monohull guy I did not interest catamarans any more.

    But at the end of two days reading about his designs, I realy like his way to solve the problems which are we meet every small monohull sailors.

    If I compare with other designs I think Wharram's traditional catamarans have lot of positive points for people who built his own boat and sail with her. I like Tiki 30 due to the following reasons.

    1 Easy to built.
    2 less material cost if compare with monohulls
    3 construct each part independently.
    4 required small costruction area
    5 easy to move , turn easily for painting and epoxy process
    6 feel free for interior design
    7 traditional design lines
    8 more stable with gaff rig as wingsail.
    9 Double ender design
    10 so fast
    11 so light. 30 feet catamaran is just 1000 kg.
    12 due to that just 10 HP outboard engine is enough to take her 7 nautic miles
    13 No more difficulties for inboard disel engines.
    14 No propeller resist during the sail, because engine is taken to up easily
    13 due to this design, sail area is not so big and easy to handle for single hand sailors.
    14 Less maintanence cost.
    15 Near 50 m2 deck area
    16 lot of place for storage , bike , dinghy etc.
    17 lot of area for solar energy panels without any obstacle during the sailing.
    18 Easy and flexible connection for main parts which is compatible to the waves
    19 Nice ladder and gangway solution
    20 no keel and close to shallow water
    21 lot of easy but effective solutions besides these are such as rudder, esay wheel system , Double anchor possibilities etc.

    I read two negative comment one of is less windward capcity, and less loading capacity as weight.

    Dinghy solution that I like

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Only I need half colsed cockpit but not tytpical. Just like little big than below one


    [IMG][/IMG]

    But I have very limited comments about sailing confort and any negative opinions about Wharram catamarans are highly appreciated. Otherwise I start to built Tiki 30

    Thanks.
    Last edited by ersin boke; 11-04-2018 at 01:47 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Wharram boats tend to be like a religion. They are total believers. I've never sailed one. You might look at Richard Woods design too. He worked f9or Wharram for many years and his ladyfriend is sister to Wharram's lady friend. http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    You and I have similar taste in designs. I've got a Blue Moon now and Tiki 30 study plans on my bookshelf. I also like some of his ethnic designs, and also the Mana 24 and the Tiki 26. My conclusion has been that small catamarans are best for people who enjoy living outdoors in all weather as the sheltered space is quite small; although, a deck tent to set up at anchor can extend it quite a bit. As such, I think they're better boats for warmer climates; whereas, I like monohulls in the high latitudes, especially with a nice heater inside. A Tiki 30 has a much simpler rig than a Blue Moon, which you might enjoy depending on your druthers. The shoal draft is a real boon, too, if you like pulling up to beaches. I plan on making beaching legs for my Blue Moon, based on Gartside's beaching leg plans, just to have that option and to cruise some drying harbors here and there. I think a Gudgeon 32 is an interesting catamaran design, too, if you can find one used out there to renovate, and there's the Fairey Atalanta's as well for an unusual monohull design. Probably all boats I would enjoy, but the Blue Moon is the only one I have experience sailing so far...

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Had some friends who circumnavigated on an old Tangaroa. Up wind not its best point, but so what? I think in your climate, something like a Tiki 30 would work well, especially with a small deck pod and tent or in harbour or anchor use. The hulls can get a bit cramped for more than a couple of people. I really like the new Mana 24, just nowhere to keep a boat like that local.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    I loved gaff cutters and built one. Now I want a fast sailing boat and a Wharram cat is slower then other cats and they are not harder to build and cost the same. With a modern Woods or Kurt Hughes cat you will also be able to sell them for more then material cost, but not a Wharram. And a fast cat is more fun then a slow cat. Frank
    Www.oarandsail.nl

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    The Wharrams certainly have some good points. Whether they are "fast" depends on what you mean - certainly they would be quicker than a traditional gaffer but as FF says they cannot go as fast as a modern boat of similar design. It's actually not easy to try to find out how fast they are - one Tiki result I saw was surprisingly good, other Tikis are no faster than bog-standard 1970s monohulls of similar length.

    "Wingsail" ideas have been around for over a century, and they have never proven to live up to the claims apart from in a very small number of cats and proas, where certain particular factors apply. People like Prof Mark Drela (America's Cup wingsail designer, designer of world record holding wings and foils) and Tom Speer (Boeing wing designer and America's Cup wingsail designer) have said quite clearly and publicly that there is NO reason to believe that wingsails are more efficient. There is no overall advantage to a double surface.

    The inspiration for Wharram's rig seems to have been tests that were ridiculously unrealistic - if I recall correctly the SMALLEST mast tested was 10% of the foot length, which is ludicrously over-sized. Moreover, modern testing has disproven the entire belief that masts are major drag inducers - in fact they are very efficient in creating lift when seen as they should be, that is as a single part of the rig as a whole.

    Wharram's claims that his luff pocket was "a major advance" ignores the fact that the same thing was done before and many times afterwards, and only rarely has the performance improved. It does worry me when people like Wharram make incorrect claims about their ideas being new. It just shows that, contrary to their claims that they are open minded, they can actually be walking around with their eyes shut, ignoring what they could learn from what has gone before. One wonders what sort of attitude leads one to assume that you're the first.
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-04-2018 at 07:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Thank you for all comments. All are so valuable for me because I did not see any Wharram design catamaran yet. As I said, I was reading about traditional gaff rig and I saw Wharram's wing sail article. My boat , a good replica of blue moon and hoops are connect the main sail to the mast. Mast is short according to bermudan rig and no need the spreader. with these hoops, hoisting the main sail is so easy with using traditional wooden blocks instead of winches. I have no winches in my boat and with topsail , I have 43 m2 sail area.

    Wharram's solution, I mean connection of main sail to the mast seems to me a practical way for hoisting the sail easily. But further than this, I read an old artice about slot effect written by Arvel Gentry and I understood that the trick of sailing is keeping the airflow on the surface of sails. One of his article ;

    http://www.gentrysailing.com/pdf-the...-Star-Mast.pdf

    He mentioned about more suitable mast crossection to prevent the airflow separation fom surface of sail. There is a drawing in this article, and show airflow grids around the mast. The crossection of Wharram's wing sail is approximately same as this grids.

    Than , I assumed that , Wharram's wing sail (infact according to me a gaff rig ) can be a good solution to keep the airflow on the sails.

    Ofcourse as I said I did not see any Wharram design catamaran and did not sail with one of them. Just wach some videos on youtube and seems to me fast. (do not forget that I am a traditional gaff cutter user )

    Again thank you for all comments about this subject.

    Dear Marujo, can you share your blue moon pictures or videos for me. ?

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post




    Wharram's claims that his luff pocket was "a major advance" ignores the fact that the same thing was done before and many times afterwards, and only rarely has the performance improved. It does worry me when people like Wharram make incorrect claims about their ideas being new. It just shows that, contrary to their claims that they are open minded, they can actually be walking around with their eyes shut, ignoring what they could learn from what has gone before. One wonders what sort of attitude leads one to assume that you're the first.
    I only vaguely recall one of Wharrams articles concerning his "advancements" to his rigs. I think he may have been referring to an advance on performance on his boats compared to his boats with prior rigs. I do recall there was a lot of calulations that went completely over my head, but the smooth transition of air flow around the mast was shown as a benefit, and i believe there was some data showing drag on a "standard" mast section with a sail set on the aft edge. My attraction to the soft wing sail was the lack of hardware and clean look, though i did/do have concerns regarding the life of a large zipper on such an important part of a sailing vessel.
    Wharram is well known for selling dreams, perhaps he needed to move on to a technical aspect in a time of fast development, instead of the old but time tested selling method of topical islands and bare chested ladies? I think "land rover of the sea" was an apt description of his early work, they just did the job and are easy to build. If he moved away from his "V" hull concept now, he would have to compete with every other designer, not likely at his age.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Another thing Wharram cats have is hobbyhorsing and that way a lot of energy or speed is wasted. Other designers could solve this by moving the centre of bouancy and centre of gravity apart.( this is a bit speculative and I am not an N.A.) I think Wharram prefers his image as a hippy designer and states his boats are slower but safer that way, while I think a fast boat is not only more fun but it helps to reach a safe place sooner or move away from bad weather. Of course non of this matters if you want to be member of his tribe.
    I admit in the past he helped lots of people to build a boat they would not have had otherwise but now the situation is radically different from the seventies and 80ties: Boats did cost money then and homebuilding was for many an option. Now the materials for a new boat cost more then a good used boat, so imo you have a different reason to build one at present.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Ersin, I think you would very much like to build your own boat and I suggest you have a good look to Kurt Hughes's 'cylinder moulding method'. It is a fascinating way to build roundbilge craft with plywood and I know 2 beautifull kats here that are built that way.
    And my own cat is also built by an amator. It is a Wizard from Richard Woods.Frank
    Www.oarandsail.nl

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Quote Originally Posted by ersin boke View Post
    Thank you for all comments. All are so valuable for me because I did not see any Wharram design catamaran yet. As I said, I was reading about traditional gaff rig and I saw Wharram's wing sail article. My boat , a good replica of blue moon and hoops are connect the main sail to the mast. Mast is short according to bermudan rig and no need the spreader. with these hoops, hoisting the main sail is so easy with using traditional wooden blocks instead of winches. I have no winches in my boat and with topsail , I have 43 m2 sail area.

    Wharram's solution, I mean connection of main sail to the mast seems to me a practical way for hoisting the sail easily. But further than this, I read an old artice about slot effect written by Arvel Gentry and I understood that the trick of sailing is keeping the airflow on the surface of sails. One of his article ;

    http://www.gentrysailing.com/pdf-the...-Star-Mast.pdf

    He mentioned about more suitable mast crossection to prevent the airflow separation fom surface of sail. There is a drawing in this article, and show airflow grids around the mast. The crossection of Wharram's wing sail is approximately same as this grids.

    Than , I assumed that , Wharram's wing sail (infact according to me a gaff rig ) can be a good solution to keep the airflow on the sails.

    Ofcourse as I said I did not see any Wharram design catamaran and did not sail with one of them. Just wach some videos on youtube and seems to me fast. (do not forget that I am a traditional gaff cutter user )

    Again thank you for all comments about this subject.

    Dear Marujo, can you share your blue moon pictures or videos for me. ?
    I can understand how Wharram's article sounded convincing. There's other information from Arvel Gentry and more recent information from other studies that show that the information Wharram was working off is incorrect. The mast works with the sails to actually create drive. This is informative to those of us who have used pocket sleeve for years and found they are not as fast as Wharram and others claim in real life. As Skaraborgcraft notes, designers are into marketing, just like used car dealers. :-)

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Aerodynamics aside, another significant part of the Wharram wing sail is its simplicity, no tracks, boom etc etc which also makes it cheaper to make, which sits well with his philosophy.
    Another potential benefit is the ability to take the boat apart for storage/ transport
    In his own words-
    "what makes a boat a good ocean sailing craft; slim fast hulls, efficient but simple sailrig design, low windage freeboard and excellent seaworthiness"

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    I like Mr Wharram. I think he's a deep thinker, he has alot of integrity, he's walked the walk and started as he carried on. I think a bit like Bolger, his designs have alot of well thought through simplicity. He's designed self build cruising boats, and that's not to be disregarded too quickly: he's considered every aspect of what he's doing, the beam, the sail area etc, and taken a balanced view to avoid you getting into a pickle. That might more valuable if your less experienced sailing multihulls or building boats, than a boat with a reputation for outright relative speed or pointing.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    For cruising catamarans of equal size, what is the difference in daily speed between a fast boat and a slower boat?

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Hard to tell, they dont race, but Nico Boon developed the Texel Rating, a formula to compare relative speed. He is connected to Wharram, for Hanneke Boon is Wharrams partner and Lilian Boon used to be Richard Woods partner. Small world.
    Last edited by FF; 11-05-2018 at 11:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    I investigate the other more modern stye cats. Not only cats I beliave we sacrifice lot of important other things which are so important for standing up in the boat.

    Wharram 's cats are so light. This means that such a light boat if the board is so high , effected from wind and can drag on surface I think. I read about wharram 's cat, you can not get "in " , only you can get "on " .

    Alsoanother interesting approach is the cabin. Cabin high increasing properly untill aft of tubes and his shape make spoiler effect to the boat and press her to the sea during the sailing.

    But the modern ones so high board and I think to prevent the wind effect , they add keels to the each tubes and this is kill all catamaran ambiance according to me. whit this design , I am not sure this keels help for winward sailing. Again v shape is important and better than the U sahape becouse V sahape sink more than U sahape to the water and This V shape can be also important during the sailing.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit View Post
    For cruising catamarans of equal size, what is the difference in daily speed between a fast boat and a slower boat?
    Given the same displacement and sail area also, i would add. Perhaps a round bilge hull with dagger boards will have less wetted surface, so might have an advantage over a more V or dory shape hull. To some, the added complication may not be worth it on a cruising boat, others may strongly disagree. Wharrams are considered under canvassed, but can usually carry full sail when others are reefing, much like a Tahiti ketch, ease of sail handling was part of the design, not out and out performance.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Quote Originally Posted by ersin boke View Post
    I investigate the other more modern stye cats. Not only cats I beliave we sacrifice lot of important other things which are so important for standing up in the boat.

    Wharram 's cats are so light. This means that such a light boat if the board is so high , effected from wind and can drag on surface I think. I read about wharram 's cat, you can not get "in " , only you can get "on " .

    Alsoanother interesting approach is the cabin. Cabin high increasing properly untill aft of tubes and his shape make spoiler effect to the boat and press her to the sea during the sailing.

    But the modern ones so high board and I think to prevent the wind effect , they add keels to the each tubes and this is kill all catamaran ambiance according to me. whit this design , I am not sure this keels help for winward sailing. Again v shape is important and better than the U sahape becouse V sahape sink more than U sahape to the water and This V shape can be also important during the sailing.
    Sure! I understand what you are getting at, and have sailed a cruising Wharram as well as owned one. But I did not want to build one back in the 1980's, because I needed a boat under 30ft that had space for living as well as shallow draught(for beaching), and was easy to sail single handedly. So I built a junk.
    After sailing from the Indian Ocean to England, I was sailing past Wharram's place when Hanneke paddled out to have a look at my junk, and then a little later I was invited around to speak with James.
    Had I known (back then), what I know now, I would have built the double canoe that I am building now, which has the advantages of the Polynesian double canoe, but does not need to be near 40ft to offer the living space and carrying capacity of a long period cruiser.
    This is a proa type Pahi, with the cabin structure being almost as equally low in windage as a Wharram; as compared to modern catamarans.
    Shallow draught is about the same, but rounded underwater shape (low wetted area drag) uses kick-up boards as lateral area at the same time as being used for steering.
    Sure, there is extra demand for hands when changing tack, making this about the only sticky point in the terms of design, and then there are no plans available for` anything comparable to a gaffer.
    Sailing with a crew who are OK with 'hot bunking', might just be the best way around the sail handling issue.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Given the same displacement and sail area also, i would add. Perhaps a round bilge hull with dagger boards will have less wetted surface, so might have an advantage over a more V or dory shape hull. To some, the added complication may not be worth it on a cruising boat, others may strongly disagree. Wharrams are considered under canvassed, but can usually carry full sail when others are reefing, much like a Tahiti ketch, ease of sail handling was part of the design, not out and out performance.
    The 60 deg V hull of the Wharram is the thing that does not go well with the philosophy of going under canvassed, and why low wetted arae hulls with boards and smaller more efficient rigs have one over a classic Wharram ( or any Wharram, for the matter), and why modern designs are oft touted as having more to offer.

    However, the simple rugged durability of a keel chine V is hard to beat when it comes to the craft looking after it'slf in real life (grounding etc.), and then the flexible and demountable cross-beams(with deck structure) have equally positive qualities on offer.

    Modern multi's are so much more awkward to take care of at all other times, besides sailing in conditions favouring unreefed rigs.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Ronald de Boer built a Wharram cat 30 years ago. Made several Atlantic voyages with he, sold the boat. Boat fell in disrepair and the owner gave her back. Ronald rebuilt the boat, with modern daggerbords, tall bermuda rig and fixed cabin between hulls. In short he did everything he could to de-Wharram the boat. He is married to Marijke Boon, sister of Wharrams partner Hanneke. The boat is much better now then she ever was.
    But I admit that I am not immune to the Wharram romantism, sailing away with a beautiful young maiden, engineless, swimming with dolfins and whales who like multis more then other boats according to Wharram. I like his ethnic designs most, even if they don't make sense.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Quote Originally Posted by ersin boke View Post
    I investigate the other more modern stye cats. Not only cats I beliave we sacrifice lot of important other things which are so important for standing up in the boat.

    Wharram 's cats are so light. This means that such a light boat if the board is so high , effected from wind and can drag on surface I think. I read about wharram 's cat, you can not get "in " , only you can get "on " .

    Alsoanother interesting approach is the cabin. Cabin high increasing properly untill aft of tubes and his shape make spoiler effect to the boat and press her to the sea during the sailing.

    But the modern ones so high board and I think to prevent the wind effect , they add keels to the each tubes and this is kill all catamaran ambiance according to me. whit this design , I am not sure this keels help for winward sailing. Again v shape is important and better than the U sahape becouse V sahape sink more than U sahape to the water and This V shape can be also important during the sailing.
    So, Ersin, you learned more about hull shape in a couple of days than top class professional designers like Richard Woods, Lock Crowther, Nigel Irens, Dick Newick, VPLP, Chamberlaine, Fountaine Pajot and others have learned in decades?

    Really? Honestly? Truly?

    How much experience do you have in the "catamaran ambience"? How many years have you spent sailing them? How many different ones have you sailed?

    It's funny, but there are many top designers out there who can explain and demonstrate how V shaped hulls are NOT better. They can show the maths that proves that Vee shapes have more wetted surface. They can demonstrate the fact that, all else being equal, the Vee shapes have lower payload. They will tell you how a Vee shape restricts the ability to spread volume out and develop correct fore and aft assymetry to prevent pitching, and also how innefficient Vee shaped boardless hulls are to windward and when tacking.

    The cat designers are NOT fools. They normally use the U shape hull because it carries loads better, has less wetted surface, normally pitches less, nosedives less, and tacks better. Most of these are simple geometrical issues.

    Sure, the Vee shape has certain advantages, as do Wharrams. But come on, your "investigations" in a couple of days are not proof that the other designers are fools who design their boats wrongly.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Modern multi's are so much more awkward to take care of at all other times, besides sailing in conditions favouring unreefed rigs.
    Is there's any evidence for that? Surely all the other designers haven't been asleep for decades, nor are they a bunch of idiots who keep on designing inferior boats. Surely the more modern hull designs must have more advantages than sailing in conditions favouring unreefed rigs.

    My family's cats have spent about eight years full time cruising and have never damaged themselves in "real life". They've never had a hull puncture or grounding damage. We just put them in shallow water and let them dry out, although in one you may make sure it has no rocks in awkward spaces. What's awkward about boats that go faster, tack faster, and carry more stuff?

    Sure, Wharrams have their advantages, but I have yet to meet a professional cat designer who is such a complete fool as to be unable to make boats that are better in some things apart from sailing in conditions favouring unreefed rigs.
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-05-2018 at 08:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Wharrams come on the market regularly for small money. Like this one, a fully equipped tiki26 in greece including the dingy with it's own motor and a trailer.
    http://www.multihulls.uk.com/index.p...ats/1361tiki26

    Woods has a few designs to interest you: Surfsong, Windsong, Skua. http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.p...marans-designs

    I find Wharram's prices somewhat high. The Tiki 30 plans are 1035, the optional deckpod plans are 75.
    Woods sells you any of his beforementioned plans for half that money.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Does anyone know how accurate Wharram's weights are? The claimed weights for some of the smaller cats appear to be extremely light. For example our old F16 type Taipan 4.9 is (IIRC) the world's lightest 16 ft catamaran class, with an all-up weight of 104 kg. It's a racing machine - the sort of boat that requires plenty of maintenance and is always trollied in and out of the water. It is built so lightly that you can crease the hull if you touch it with your trapeze harness hook. The same builder's current 16 footer is 129kg.

    Another class, the Formula 18 HT (ie High Tech, to differentiate it from the standard Formula 18), is 137kg, as is the Taipan 5.7.

    The Wharram Hitia 17 claims to be 134 kg. How can you build a plywood 17 foot cruiser, with bulky hulls, three wooden beams, wooden masts and wooden foils, and have it come out lighter than a low-profile 18ft carbon-fibre racing cat, complete with carbon fibre spars, carbon fibre crossbeams, and carbon fibre rudder and centreboard?

    Are they really claiming that this;

    Hitia.jpg

    is actually lighter than this:?

    F18HT.jpg
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-06-2018 at 12:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Warram's more recent designs have moved away from the simple V hull and now have a fuller chined hull. There is a series of photos on the build of a 24ft (?) on the web. IIRR it was CNC cut and used location tabs. Think it was the first of a type and Wharram & Boon were directing the team. Designed to be easily trailed and included photos of the launch.

    Back in the 70s, I bought a 2CV off a young guy in Norfolk. Turned out he was building a biggish Wharram and had completed one hull. He was having trouble with the plans and asked if I could help. So we spent a couple of hours with what I would call pretty poor drawings (my old man was a NA) I was surprised he had got so far.
    He fitted the image exactly. Building it to sail round the world with his wife and small child. No sailing experience or any other boating....But plenty of dreams. I wished him luck. No idea if he managed it.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Dear Chris,

    I am an engineer. Engineering builded on its mistakes. I know that the purpose of design is so important . As you said, I have no experience about Catsamarans But I can say sometihing for monohulls . Can you tell me that latest monohull designs are seaworthy? Lot of them stall the wind after 20 knots. Then who designed them? green grocers?

    Latest monohull designs are another subject but I try to say their aim of a designer is important. Each of them design according to their aims and ofcourse market demands.

    After 25 years experience in engineering , I can say Wharram's aim is design seaworthy sailing cats. Is he sucess? sure he did lot of mistakes in his design life or He can not adoupt new equipments or materials such as computer tech etc.

    As you say, I have not enough experience about cat boats. But do not worry, I know myself , I can learn fast. Your writing style will push me up.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Ersin
    You have probably found this: https://www.wharram.com/site/self-build-boats/mana24
    The Mana24 was the one I saw the build photos of.

    In a UK magasin ( Practical Boat Owner?) there was an article about renting a 35ft Wharram out in some Pacific Island chain. That design was not for home builders and was similar to the Mana with a fuller chined hull. The writer quite liked it.
    A2

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Thank you Andrew2 that link one of I saw to build a Wharram.

    I also add something about why I like Wharrarm design. He based his designs to a traditional sailing knowledge . That knowledge is non tradable but so valuable.

    Ofcourse carbon fibre materials high tech and lighter, and great designs maybe. But Wharram designs remember me something about soul. With my poor English hard to explain .

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Is there's any evidence for that? Surely all the other designers haven't been asleep for decades, nor are they a bunch of idiots who keep on designing inferior boats. Surely the more modern hull designs must have more advantages than sailing in conditions favouring unreefed rigs.

    My family's cats have spent about eight years full time cruising and have never damaged themselves in "real life". They've never had a hull puncture or grounding damage. We just put them in shallow water and let them dry out, although in one you may make sure it has no rocks in awkward spaces. What's awkward about boats that go faster, tack faster, and carry more stuff?

    Sure, Wharrams have their advantages, but I have yet to meet a professional cat designer who is such a complete fool as to be unable to make boats that are better in some things apart from sailing in conditions favouring unreefed rigs.
    Evidence for this is seen on all the cruising cats that have keels on their smartly designed "U shape hulls, that are designed by your oft touted NA's to apparently "go faster, tack faster, and carry more stuff'.
    You seem to go through many boats in your effort to keep up with the crowd, and obviously fork out a lot more than others who need to stretch their resources a bit further.
    This is where Wharram started out (low budget sailboats), and those who think he must be 'foolish' for doing things so differently to the apparently smarter lot you favour, just do not get what it takes to chase a dream on a dime.

    What I have seen is a Wharram built with cascamite glue, that was lighter than a contemporary design, lets say a Prouts cat, and had been sailing for about a decade, doing a circumnavigation that included a couple of severe Indian Ocean cyclones, when I saw and sailed on 'her'.
    This cat had hit and come off reefs, and could do a 240 nm daily average in strong winds and seas of up to 8Metres.
    No doubt a cat with a taller rig and a less draggy U shaped hull, could have been a bit quicker, if it was able survive the same usage as the Wharram.But it would likely have needed those draggy keels to protect the bottoms, and would then have lost any weight advantages well as U section low wetted area.

    Pretty much for sure, it would have cost a lot more to start with, and would anyway have been way more of a handful to steer(in those conditions), unless reefed right down down, to make use of the faster hull form ( if it indeed lacked the add-on keels).......Those V hulls track really straight and easy in following seas.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 11-06-2018 at 03:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Lug, re "You seem to go through many boats in your effort to keep up with the crowd."

    Anyone who knew me will laugh their head off at that one. I've had my 28'er for 32 years; my favourite windsurfer for 34 years. Until last month, the newest windsurfer I sailed was built around 2000. I've raced the same Tasar now for about 24 years; I loved and raced my 29 year old Laser until it broke. We did recently buy a boat I'd been lusting after since 1981, and after our Hobie was written off we "updated" to a 20 year old design. To say that someone who hangs onto their craft as long as I do "goes through many boats" is completely and utterly baseless, and so is the implication that is being made.

    Sure, lots of other cruising cats have keels. So what? They are pretty effective and practical in lots of ways. We used to be able to beach the keeled cat safe in the knowledge that the 'glass in the bottom of the keels was thicker than any cat hull and would take rocks with ease. That is not "awkward". Sure, with his centreboard cat my brother has to take some care of where he dries out - so what? He's is not a moron, he is able to decide that the volume and performance advantage under full sail or reefs is worth it, and he has shallower hulls which can be an advantage. If others have different priorities and tastes and prefer a Wharram then good on them, but it does not mean that the other cats are "so much more awkward".

    It is a complete misrepresention of what I wrote to imply that I think that Wharram is foolish - all I am saying is that his boats, like any boat, have weak points that are being ignored by some here. It is also a complete misrepresentation to imply that I am in any way dismissive of low budget sailing. Not a shred of what I wrote should have been read like that. All I'm saying is that other designers and cats are also good, in different ways. Chamberlain, Woods and others are not fools; they are not bad designers; they do not only cater for millionaires; and their boats are not all "so much more awkward to take care of at all other times, besides sailing in conditions favouring unreefed rigs" as you claimed.

    It's always depressing how upset some people get when someone just tries to say "hey, other designers are not fools, and most boats have strong and weak points".


    Last edited by Chris249; 11-06-2018 at 05:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Quote Originally Posted by ersin boke View Post
    Dear Chris,

    I am an engineer. Engineering builded on its mistakes. I know that the purpose of design is so important . As you said, I have no experience about Catsamarans But I can say sometihing for monohulls . Can you tell me that latest monohull designs are seaworthy? Lot of them stall the wind after 20 knots. Then who designed them? green grocers?

    Latest monohull designs are another subject but I try to say their aim of a designer is important. Each of them design according to their aims and ofcourse market demands.

    After 25 years experience in engineering , I can say Wharram's aim is design seaworthy sailing cats. Is he sucess? sure he did lot of mistakes in his design life or He can not adoupt new equipments or materials such as computer tech etc.

    As you say, I have not enough experience about cat boats. But do not worry, I know myself , I can learn fast. Your writing style will push me up.
    I NEVER said that Wharram was not a success, nor did I imply it. The point is that Vee hulls are not "better" than U hulls as you claimed - each has its strong points and its weak points. As an engineer you should surely understand the issues that the geometry of Vee shaped hulls bring. As Scaraborgcraft said, to some the advantages of a U shaped hull may be worth it on a cruising boat but others may disagree. The point is that it gets down to individual situations and preferences and not one type being better.

    Yes, I can say that good modern monos are very seaworthy, and they do NOT "stall" in 20 knots - and I can say with confidence that I have spent much more time sailing them than you have. The good ones can be under finger-tip control under storm trysail in waves that round the world sailors on classic designs say are the worst they have seen. That some modern boats handle badly can be put down to individual bad designs or bad sailing. To say they are all bad because some get out of control is a bit like saying all mountain bikes are bad because some people fall off them, or all modern cars are bad because some crash. You may want to look at the very poor record of the old designs currently sailing in the Golden Globe race to see how their failure rate is at least as high as the ultra-modern boats that sail the same course.

    This is NOT saying that Wharrams or vee hulls are bad - in fact two of my own beloved boats are older style Vee hulls. I've had friends with Wharrams and I understand their appeal. All I am saying is that their weak points should be recognised as well as their strong points, and that the designers who choose U shaped hulls should be respected and it should not be claimed that their choice is as inferior as you made out.
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-06-2018 at 05:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    I have always likened the Wharram cats as the Colin Archers of multihulls, they may not be the fastest things afloat, but people still build new ones despite being "outdated". I think Atkin said "the sea remains the same". Maybe get a ride on a Wharram before committing to a build, nothing worse than spending so much time building, only to be disappointed in the performance results.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    As you see I submit this thread to learn something about Wharram cat. This means that I have no any idea untill last week about cat boats. Then I do not know which hull sahpe is better for cats really I do not know.

    I wonder how yo know that your sailing experience more than me ? and what is the criteria ? winning races? thousants of sailing miles?

    But I can say this. All "modern " cruising boats generally have bemudan rig. Main and genova have furling. If you start to reef such rig, Center of effort of main sail closed to the mast. Similarly when you reef the genova , center of effort of this sail moves to the forward also. This means that , main sail force and moment arm of this sail reduced but this is not same for genova. Force on the genova reduced but length of moment arm increased. This means that turning moment on the boat increase(not force ) "Generally " after 20 knos The moment due to the main sail did not balance the moment due to genova. If wind increased to 30 knots boat starts to turn . At that time rudder can not enough surface to turn to boat. I call this position as stall . sure maybe not correct English word. Ofcourse some different trims for both sails to go. But in this case speed is reduced .

    For Wharram , I try to say maybe V shape is required for his design if you think his design totally. I did not say that V sahape is better than U shape. Because I do not know which one is better.

    For modern cruising boats I am not sure they are really "modern" . This is my opinion and not based a technical data. Just an instinct.

    Again thank you for yor comments. As a goddamn engineer At least I learn that catamaran hulls can be different as U sahpe and V shape.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Lug, re "You seem to go through many boats in your effort to keep up with the crowd."

    Anyone who knew me will laugh their head off at that one. I've had my 28'er for 32 years; my favourite windsurfer for 34 years. Until last month, the newest windsurfer I sailed was built around 2000. I've raced the same Tasar now for about 24 years; I loved and raced my 29 year old Laser until it broke. We did recently buy a boat I'd been lusting after since 1981, and after our Hobie was written off we "updated" to a 20 year old design. To say that someone who hangs onto their craft as long as I do "goes through many boats" is completely and utterly baseless, and so is the implication that is being made.

    Sure, lots of other cruising cats have keels. So what? They are pretty effective and practical in lots of ways. We used to be able to beach the keeled cat safe in the knowledge that the 'glass in the bottom of the keels was thicker than any cat hull and would take rocks with ease. That is not "awkward". Sure, with his centreboard cat my brother has to take some care of where he dries out - so what? He's is not a moron, he is able to decide that the volume and performance advantage under full sail or reefs is worth it, and he has shallower hulls which can be an advantage. If others have different priorities and tastes and prefer a Wharram then good on them, but it does not mean that the other cats are "so much more awkward".

    It is a complete misrepresention of what I wrote to imply that I think that Wharram is foolish - all I am saying is that his boats, like any boat, have weak points that are being ignored by some here. It is also a complete misrepresentation to imply that I am in any way dismissive of low budget sailing. Not a shred of what I wrote should have been read like that. All I'm saying is that other designers and cats are also good, in different ways. Chamberlain, Woods and others are not fools; they are not bad designers; they do not only cater for millionaires; and their boats are not all "so much more awkward to take care of at all other times, besides sailing in conditions favouring unreefed rigs" as you claimed.

    It's always depressing how upset some people get when someone just tries to say "hey, other designers are not fools, and most boats have strong and weak points".


    Chris, you started it (for me), saying " I have yet to meet a designer who is such a fool... etc."
    Forgive me then for assuming that you have pretty much met them all (the British, the Hawians and Californians, the French and Australian cat designers, as well as others like Spronk) who are near unanimous in their differing design philosophy to Wharram.
    Then oh!, you have ownership experience covering a few Hobies, a few dinghys, sailboards, and Keeler or two!.
    Fine!, we might do well to keep on thread with the premise that apart from Wharram, the rest of catamaran design falls into a top end one having U section hulls with twin daggerboards, and then the multi chine variations of the theme.
    Otherwise, there are keels, as a compromise to handle drying out on the inevitable rock, fill out the options available......unless there is some strange reason to include complications, like centreboards (inside keels) or in nacelles, slung between the` hulls.

    I agree with you that hulls having lower WSA include a basic design element that does show Wharram up, and having once committed to depth of V section for lateral area, there is virtually no way out of the performance trough/pit, committed to.
    But then the quicker turning/tacking configuration demands constant attention or steering energy input for all the many hours of open Ocean sailing that is (hopefully) the expectation.
    Also, designing for performance by the average designer's book, will invariably go along with a Bermudan sloop rig, making sail balance for steering, a very limiting one.
    This is another area that singles out Wharram.....and is maybe OK for a different thread as well.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 11-06-2018 at 04:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Wharram Catamarans , discussion required !

    I like the newer Wharram ply hulls that came in with Melanesia and now go through to the Mana 24. They put a bit more lateral plane forward and have a more sophisticated shape with buoyancy distributed asymmetrically fore and aft to reduce hobby-horsing. They look like better load carriers too.


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