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Thread: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

  1. #1
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    Default resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    I start back working on the yacht again tomorrow.

    The mast sections are sitting on the jig waiting for glue...

    I've had absolutely no luck trying to source resorcinol glue.

    Nightingale supply in Brisbane (as many will be aware from my earlier post on the same subject matter) did begrudgingly take back the 20kg kit I purchased in August sticking by their claim that the product was "fresh" stock despite a 3+ year date stamp on both resin and hardener.
    They refunded only a portion of our money holding back freight cost of around $70. As a business they were extremely slapstick with product details and difficult to deal with.

    MZ3 in Perth are having difficulty sourcing base materials from which to manufacture their own glue. Whilst Dough from MZ3 has been most gracious in helping me as much he can, he wont be producing in the foreseeable future.

    Norski in NZ no longer supply.

    Holdfast in NZ tell me that get supply from Fullers in Australia.
    They do have on hand Aerodux in 4 Lt cans. These are extremely expensive at NZ$285.33 each. Even if did want to buy, the Hazardous Goods freight for the hardener would ramp the cost up. Of greater concern is the fact that they could not give me a product batch number or manufacture date.

    The Fullers representative in sales in Australia didn't have any idea as to what resorcinol glue is..."haven't even heard of it"

    Alansons in the UK have Prefere 4050M Medium Resorcinol Phenol Resin and 5750 Liquid Hardener. Prefere is made by Dynea.
    Alansons will sell me 10 kg resin and 10 kg liquid hardener for UKP164.26 and UKP95.02 respectively. Not a bad price BUT the Hazardous Air freight comes in at a whopping UKP950.
    To get he product sent over by sea freight (never mind the travel time) will cost 2 to 3 times more!!!!!
    The issue I have with this option is the high cost coupled with obtaining an iron clad assurance the glue is in date.

    Dynea have no presence in Australia. The closest is NZ. I'll be trying them tomorrow.

    Jowat (who supply Nightingale in Brisbane) will only sell in 1000kg lots. At best Im likely to only need about 25kg for the mast and spars. I'll be giving them a call tomorrow and try with all my might to get a small quantity by pleading my case...
    Or finding out if they supply to other smaller distributors within Australia.

    Ive looked through Classic Boat and Wooden Boat magazines for leads on glue...but nothing.

    I go around in circles when doing internet searches.

    My other (most horrible) option is to consider using epoxy and then painting the mast and spars to protect the glue line from sun degradation. I don't want painted mast and spars.
    I dont know for sure, but I dont think there is such a thing as a UV stabilised epoxy glue on the market????

    If anyone can help in any which way...please fell free to do so.

    I really want to bright work the mast and spars.

    Bernadette
    Last edited by Bernadette; 11-04-2018 at 02:08 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    I think it's fairly common to use epoxy to glue up, and then varnish over the top for UV protection. Shouldn't be a big deal, I'd think. The glue line might show a bit more but it can be done very neatly. With sawdust mixed into the glue-up, you can match the color of the wood pretty closely.

    THIS LINK will be of interest to you, I think.

    I for one am never bothered with a visible glue line if it's neatly done.

    Good luck!

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Tom
    thanks for the info.

    Im not bothered by showing a glue line. Using resorcinol almost invariable means a dark line will be visible with the laminations.

    Im concerned the sun will break down the epoxy if I were to go ahead an use it then varnish the mast and spars rather than paint them.

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    You can re-varnish regularly to renew the UV protections, can't you? A good varnish will protect the epoxy from UV damage.

    Or perhaps oil the spars instead? (Thought that means more frequent re-applying, I'd guess).

    I have to believe there are MANY boats out there with epoxy-glued masts that are varnished, not painted. But maybe I'm wrong. I'm used to small trailer boats that live indoors or under cover. Certainly varnish over epoxy has been fine for that kind of use. Hopefully someone with more relevant experience will be along to chime in.

    Tom
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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    I last used Alansons for a job lot, but for small quantities of resorcinol you can buy Polyproof from Polyvine in the UK (670g tins). It’s changed its name from Cascaphen/ extraphen. They actually make it and sell direct, though its available in most uk trade stores. I cant see that they distribute in Australia, but they do say they export, at a better rate hopefully and would likely give you a quantity discount as they make it.



    http://www.polyvine.com/index.php/en...ives/polyproof

    Air freight is expensive for glues as they are potentially flammable. Resoricinol glue lines are tight and don’t need much glue relative to epoxy, i’m sure you’ve figured it out, but I over ordered by volume. The cyclical loading improvement of resorcinol over epoxy beside uv and heat resistance would be worth finding some on a mast.

    Its used in high end glue lam beams in the construction industry, also specified in home wood plane building/ aviation, two other avenues to search out a stockist.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 11-04-2018 at 04:57 AM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    thanks Edward...another supplier I can check out. incredibly....very much appreciated!!!!

    Ive been searching the internet for any possible lead.
    As an example, I got onto a timber frame antique car builder who uses resorcinol. The suppliers link from this page lead to me a 'gliders' page and so on and so forth. Sometimes as mentioned, I find myself going in circles.

    A lot of the suppliers it would seem are in fact 'on-sellers' from the big manufacturing firms.

    Ive been wading through trade names changes and companies being bought out by other firms...A lot of the information pages on the www don't reflect these updates.

    update: ive just done the math on the Polyproof. At UKP30 per 670g I would need in the order of 37 tins to equate to the 25 kg I need. This = approx A$2200. No freight costs included in this amount.
    Last edited by Bernadette; 11-04-2018 at 05:32 AM.

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    This stockist sells Aerodux in 25kg packs. Might be worth asking for their price on international shipping. You shouldn’t expect to pay the 20% vat for an export to Australia from the UK.

    https://www.adkwik.co.uk/aerodux-185...inol-resin-kit

    The polyproof price is rrp in trade shops, i’m sure direct after an email it would be alot cheaper in quantity as they make it. I’d be expecting half, at least.

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Thanks again Edward.


    As a starter, Ive sent an enquiry to Polyvine and Adkwik via their online email function.
    Last edited by Bernadette; 11-04-2018 at 06:10 AM.

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Hey Bern I guess you would not consider using slash pine Peter Sibley has a nice stand around 40 year old.

    I am just restoring an old solid Couta mast for WB and am very surprised how light a solid spar actually can be.

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Hi,

    What size mast ? solid ? Epoxy can be protected from UV with either paint or varnish. It's only the outer glue line that is exposed. We've just built some solid laminated spars, bit of a write up by Murielle here : http://mimijane.ca/building-the-masts-and-spars


    Cheers,
    Mark

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    I think it depends on the UVfilter in the varnish, and you could find out about it. I expect these filters are getting better and better, so I would not worry about using epoxy.

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Being in one of the most intense UV areas of the world, you might invite some of the varnish manufacturers to send you some test samples in exchange for effectiveness reporting? Ya never know..could be worth a try and could offset some costs. 'Course, if their varnish is a "flunk"....

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Found this. They're in Texas, with free shipping on orders over $60.00. Marine epoxy with UV inhibitors and HALs. No experience with this.

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Grasp is available in Australia as is Resobond. I've included links on the left for suppliers in various parts of the world I could identify.

    https://www.christinedemerchant.com/...esorcinol.html

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Aircraft Spruce in the US has Cascophen Resorcinol

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by auscruisertom View Post
    Hey Bern I guess you would not consider using slash pine Peter Sibley has a nice stand around 40 year old.

    I am just restoring an old solid Couta mast for WB and am very surprised how light a solid spar actually can be.
    hi Tom
    nice to hear from you!

    Ive already got the silver Quondong made up into laminations for the main mast resting on the mast jig...sans the glue!
    I recently purchased some Douglas fir from Victoria for my bowsprit and I have enough Quondong left over to do the gaff, mainsail boom and foresail boom.

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    I second the notion of epoxy. West's g-flex is the best sort for spars, but standard epoxy will work ok too. I bet MAS can recommend something.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark0 View Post
    Hi,

    What size mast ? solid ? Epoxy can be protected from UV with either paint or varnish. It's only the outer glue line that is exposed. We've just built some solid laminated spars, bit of a write up by Murielle here : http://mimijane.ca/building-the-masts-and-spars


    Cheers,
    Mark
    Hello Mark
    thanks for the link to your mast building video. Its refreshing to see Murielle (ie another woman) doing boat work!

    my mast will be approx 44' x 5 3/4" (tapering from the hounds up). its solid laminations.
    I have assumed that varnish will protect to some degree Ann epoxy glue line but as I have no experience with this aspect of varnish over epoxy Im very hesitant to go ahead with etc process.
    I do however think your method of applying a highly vicious epoxy down first followed by a 'gap filling' thicker application a good idea.

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    I think it depends on the UVfilter in the varnish, and you could find out about it. I expect these filters are getting better and better, so I would not worry about using epoxy.
    FF, yes, I will have to do some further research.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    Grasp is available in Australia as is Resobond. I've included links on the left for suppliers in various parts of the world I could identify.

    https://www.christinedemerchant.com/...esorcinol.html
    Gib

    this web page is sadly grossly outdated. As I mentioned previously, a lot of the information on this page and others similar to it are no longer current.
    I purchased glue from Nightingale and it was a disaster..one foul up after another from that business.
    see my other post on this matter.
    Nightingale get their glue from Jowat.
    Resobond is available form Doug at MZ3 in Perth. As previously noted, he is not manufacturing just at this present point in time.
    Last edited by Bernadette; 11-04-2018 at 05:22 PM.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    Being in one of the most intense UV areas of the world, you might invite some of the varnish manufacturers to send you some test samples in exchange for effectiveness reporting? Ya never know..could be worth a try and could offset some costs. 'Course, if their varnish is a "flunk"....
    Hugh
    I am very concerned about the level of UV attacking the outer glue line...this is precisely why we use resorcinol in the first instance...BUT...if I can get a 'new breed' of varnish that will greatly reduce the UV getting to the glue then I would consider epoxy. However, I am sceptical. I guess on the plus side there will only be the middle sections of the mast and spars to monitor closely as the ends will be painted (white tipped in the traditional manner) and I will sew up a mast cover as I did for DECATUR's masts when not in use.

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    These guys below use polyurethane. I think most modern adhesives would be fine if applied correctly. It all depends on open time / temp / clamping requirements.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqoZZ6fuefA

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I second the notion of epoxy. West's g-flex is the best sort for spars, but standard epoxy will work ok too. I bet MAS can recommend something.
    David
    what makes West's g-flex the best for spars? what about masts?
    What does MAS stand for?

    Is this what you have been using?

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Another european manufacturer, but I suspect the same high transport charges https://www.bindulin-shop.de/de/prod...mer__BC10.html

    Asian manufacturers:
    https://www.aica-ap.com/p_structural they have a NZ office https://www.aica-ap.com/network#NewZealand

    https://www.astachemicals.com/produc...oodworking-fw/

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
    David
    what makes West's g-flex the best for spars? what about masts?
    What does MAS stand for?

    Is this what you have been using?
    Having built a dozen or so spars using epoxy, I've wondered about their longevity. Not because of UV exposure, which I think minimal, but because of the brittle nature of plain old epoxy. I can't help thinking that every flex cycle is degrading the epoxy ever so slightly and that eventually it will fail. So far this hasn't happened. G-Flex retains flexibility and apparently doesn't degrade under stress. Perhaps the engineers in the forum can tell us what the modulus of elasticity is for this product compared to generic epoxy.

    MAS is a brand name of epoxy here in the States.

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    The UV does not penetrate very far into a glue joint, especially with any fillers present. Maintaining the varnish will protect the exposed edge of the glue.

    It is possible that resorcinol is being phased out http://www.glulam.co.uk/principalChoices_adhesives.htm. BS EN 301 Type I may be the thing to ask for? Probably not helping you much here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
    David
    what makes West's g-flex the best for spars? what about masts?
    What does MAS stand for?

    Is this what you have been using?
    MAS is Just another brand of epoxy. The link in Tom's post includes West and MAS, but the link is older than G-flex. G-flex is flexible, and seems to be less sensitive to the oils in the difficult to bond woods. Other than that, most epoxies should work.
    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I think it's fairly common to use epoxy to glue up, and then varnish over the top for UV protection. Shouldn't be a big deal, I'd think. The glue line might show a bit more but it can be done very neatly. With sawdust mixed into the glue-up, you can match the color of the wood pretty closely.

    THIS LINK will be of interest to you, I think.

    I for one am never bothered with a visible glue line if it's neatly done.

    Good luck!

    Tom
    EDIT:
    Dusty mentioned modulus of elasticity. Regular West is about 3 times stiffer than G-flex. G-flex is about as stiff as polyethylene. Wood is 10-20 times stiffer than G-flex. Fortunately he didn't ask how important that is because that is not as easy to answer.
    http://www.highgaincomposites.com/img/2016722182028.pdf
    https://www.westsystem.com/wp-conten...poxy-Resin.pdf

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    Last edited by MN Dave; 11-04-2018 at 08:08 PM.
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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier


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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
    hi Tom
    nice to hear from you!

    Ive already got the silver Quondong made up into laminations for the main mast resting on the mast jig...sans the glue!
    I recently purchased some Douglas fir from Victoria for my bowsprit and I have enough Quondong left over to do the gaff, mainsail boom and foresail boom.
    The boom and gaff will be great made up out of Quandong it’s such a great and flexible wood. Good luck with your search.
    Cheers Tom

  29. #29
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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
    Hugh
    I am very concerned about the level of UV attacking the outer glue line...this is precisely why we use resorcinol in the first instance...BUT...if I can get a 'new breed' of varnish that will greatly reduce the UV getting to the glue then I would consider epoxy. However, I am sceptical. I guess on the plus side there will only be the middle sections of the mast and spars to monitor closely as the ends will be painted (white tipped in the traditional manner) and I will sew up a mast cover as I did for DECATUR's masts when not in use.
    A good spar varnish, applied to the mfr's specs, will protect the epoxy just fine. As with many others, my boat's mast and other epoxy-jointed timber has had years of exposure without problems. I've recently started using Awlwood MA, a new generation varnish from International/Awlgrip that has MUCH better longevity than standard varnishes. A bit harder to apply but easier than 2-pack.....

  30. #30
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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Thank you all so very much for your efforts to source and post up links and the advice. Ive got a fair bit to wade through now and still have yet to make up my mind what I glue with.
    I haven't yet read the article about phasing out resorcinol but my opinion is that it still has a place in the manufacture of a lot of timber products and cant be beat for its characteristics - broadly speaking.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Another european manufacturer, but I suspect the same high transport charges https://www.bindulin-shop.de/de/prod...mer__BC10.html

    Asian manufacturers:
    https://www.aica-ap.com/p_structural they have a NZ office https://www.aica-ap.com/network#NewZealand

    https://www.astachemicals.com/produc...oodworking-fw/
    Rumars
    Thanks for the links and info.

    The first link unfortunately is not in English and I cant understand any of it! it does look like they sell resorcinol and ship internationally though.

    Aica is the NZ outlet for Dynea. Ive yet to contact them.

    Asta chemicals in Malaysia doesn't have much on their website and Im not sure I would be keen on this company.

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Schweiss View Post
    Aircraft Spruce in the US has Cascophen Resorcinol
    This is where I hVe bought it as well. I have spoken to them on the phone, good to talk to.

    https://m.aircraftspruce.com/catalog...?clickkey=3807

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
    David
    what makes West's g-flex the best for spars? what about masts?
    What does MAS stand for?

    Is this what you have been using?
    Just in terms of terminology... masts ARE spars. So are booms, yards, boomkins, etc.

    G-flex is a bit better because, as mentioned, it doesn't dry quite as brittle, so takes the flexing of a spar better than straight epoxy... and better than resorcinol. Also - a 'tougher', less brittle adhesive takes shock/impact better. A factor which 'can' come into play for a spar. I've repaired several older masts that were glued up with the 'plastic resin glue'... the powdered urea-formaldehyde glue one mixes with water. Depending on conditions, it seems to have had a 40+ year lifespan. It dried hard initially. Then it dried out and granulated over time. Failure seems to often start in areas with the most flex. G-flex also seems to be a bit 'grippier' which is part of what makes it suitable for 'difficult' woods (dense, oily, etc.). The grippy part is good, even though spar woods are not usually the difficult species.

    I mentioned MAS only because I've known a lot of folks in OZ who've used their product, and assume they must have widespread distribution there. The products I use come from West System, System 3, RAKA, and Duckworks. All of which, I suspect, will ship to OZ.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Schweiss View Post
    Aircraft Spruce in the US has Cascophen Resorcinol

    I bought a gallon of Cascophen from Aircraft Spruce last spring. The stuff they sent had two months left before the expiration date. Sound familiar? They were very reluctant to accept the product back and needed prompting afterward to credit the return. Return shipping was paid by me. These folks are selling products intended for homebuilt aircraft so you might think that quality control would be more rigorous.

    I ended up buying from CP Adhesives, an outfit that sells nothing but adhesives.

    Jim

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    Default Re: resorcinol glue...now desperatly seeking supplier

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    I bought a gallon of Cascophen from Aircraft Spruce last spring. The stuff they sent had two months left before the expiration date. Sound familiar? They were very reluctant to accept the product back and needed prompting afterward to credit the return. Return shipping was paid by me. These folks are selling products intended for homebuilt aircraft so you might think that quality control would be more rigorous.

    I ended up buying from CP Adhesives, an outfit that sells nothing but adhesives.

    Jim

    We have been buying all our resorcinol through CP Adhesives as well. So far everything has been excellent, no complaints!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

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