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Thread: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

  1. #1
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    Default Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    I'm a Yuge Fan of PL Premium and tend to use it for nearly everything that doesn't require quality epoxy, but thought I'd be more craftsman-like and use Titebond III for setting bungs in the floorboards I'm stripping and reinstalling as sections held in by toggles.

    But I've noticed that the bungs and surrounding wood tend to turn dark when they meet the beltsander / palm sander - is this a thing? Do I need to wait a day or two before sanding? I gave these between 4 -24 hours before sanding after setting with TBIII.

    With the PL Premium I can sand within a hour if no glueline is exposed, or within 4-6 hours if glue is exposed. PL doesn't sand perfectly and isn't good for anything very exposed like fillets, but for faying surfaces and bungs it works well and the tan color makes a nice putty fill.

    These particular bungs are just plugging old screw holes and will never need to be removed as you do for those covering SB screws. The floorboards flex a lot so I ain't gonna try a trad solution like old varnish or pine tar cut with Norwegian mustache hair. ;-) They are commercial ones as I prefer the tapered bungs over the straight bungs my cutter makes. The white is old paint and/or epoxy putty that didn't get completely cleaned out from around the screw holes with my countersink tools.

    IMG_0437.jpg IMG_0436.jpg
    Last edited by Thorne; 11-02-2018 at 01:41 PM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    That's not from the glue, I think that is moisture staining from the old hole. I suspect it would be there no matter the glue.

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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    ^

    Agreed.

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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    I too would agree that the dark staining is from old water intrusion. I'd like to add that Titebond makes a lousy end grain glue. Plugs as you have, are a lot of end grain. So much of the surface isn't getting adhesion with it's mate. The plugs won't fall out but neither will there be a glue-seal-bond around their circumference. Perhaps the PL would be better for longevity as would epoxy.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    Thanks, all. But as for the dark stain, it wasn't there before I glued the plug in, and the originally-white plug tops are also sometimes turning black when sanded. The surrounding wood doesn't turn dark when sanded at the same time.

    IMG_0439.jpg

    I'll probably go back to using PL for non-removable bungs, but am curious about the dark stain created by sanding. I suspect the water in the glue is wicking through the end grain of the bungs and then "burning" on the surface during sanding while still damp.
    Last edited by Thorne; 11-02-2018 at 03:59 PM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    Are those bungs or dowels?

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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    Thanks, all. But as for the dark stain, it wasn't there before I glued the plug in, and the originally-white plug tops are also sometimes turning black when sanded. The surrounding wood doesn't turn dark when sanded at the same time.

    IMG_0439.jpg

    I'll probably go back to using PL for non-removable bungs, but am curious about the dark stain created by sanding. I suspect the water in the glue is wicking through the end grain of the bungs and then "burning" on the surface during sanding while still damp.
    That looks like charring. If they are dowels and you are sanding end grain it may be "harder" than the surrouunding wood and so getting hot.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    A properly-fitting plug (i.e. straight-sided, not tapered, IMHO) set in thick shellac (if need be, cook off some of the alcohol and it will thicken) or thick varnish (good use for opened cans that have gone "bad,") will seal the end-grain sides of the bore and plug. They will be much easier to chisel fair with the surface and sand. That would probably solve the discoloration problem in the future. Hard to say if you can bleach out the present staining, depending upon the wood species. Some bleach well. Some don't. Additionally, if you ever have to drill out a plug (use a brad point bit) and remove a screw, it's a lot easier to clean out the slot, square, or Phillips "X" if the glue in it is brittle and will bust and crumble. In my experience, the commonly encountered aliphatic resin and polyvinyl acetate adhesives remain somewhat flexible, which makes them difficult to sand.

    Tite Bond adhesive is technically "water-proof," but in any event, thati's in the eyes of the beholder. It passes the "waterproof" testing threshold, at least. That said, it certainly isn't in this application. It's good stuff for many applications, but I wouldn't use it on a boat, no matter what their advertising literature may say. Suffice it to say, it isn't working for you. Here, again, the traditional method is also a lot less expensive.

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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    We see that where PVA adhesive touches a plain steel clamp and the wood. The TB might be reacting with metal remaining from the fastener.
    R
    Sleep with one eye open.

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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    Maybe just redrill and use some larger plugs. Wouldn’t take too long.

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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    These are plain wood tapered bungs, not covering fasteners but they are plugging old SB screw holes in the floorboards. The TBIII could be reacting with "wood sickness" or rot from the SB screw holes, but my countersink tool takes nearly all of that out before I poured the TBIII into the hole and then bunged it. These are purely for visual effect, as I could have also used thickened epoxy or even PL Premium to fill the holes -- but prefer the look of wood bungs.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    I think it may just be the color of the dried glue, Thorne.

    Iíve noticed the III dries much darker than the other two. I use wood glue a lot (for wood! Haha), and started recently with the III for some stuff to try it. Itís darker, I think. I mean glue lines, you know?

    Maybe itís just the glue itself, when dried? Maybe try just glue on a similar or scrap piece to see?

    If using a titebond glue, maybe II would be better, here?

    Peace,
    Good Guesser, But Based On My Own Frequent Fumblings

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    The darkness in the surrounding wood certainly looks like historical artifact to me.

    Some of the darkened plug-ends could easily be from 'burning'. End grain is more susceptible to over-heating due to aging sanding belts/disks.

    At any rate -- A boat owned by a character... should have some character, no? <G>
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    I dont think that's got anything to do with the glue. Ive never seen TB3 stain surrounding wood and I use gallons of the stuff.

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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    "Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood?

    No, they don't Thorne.



  16. #16
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    Default Re: Do water-based glues like TBIII stain bungs and wood? Sanding tips needed

    The nice thing about using thickened shellac or the old brown water based Weldwood plastic resin glue for plugs is that they both are close in color to most woods and will seal end grain thus preventing water intrusion and staining of the sorrounding wood. In addition, if a plug must be removed, the glue is brittle enough to shatter when a small chisel is used in conjunction with a steel hammer to remove the bad plug. The brittle glue can then be chipped away from the walls of the hole without damaging the bore if one is careful. This saves the original plug hole and makes it unecessary to drill a larger counterbore.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 11-05-2018 at 01:16 PM.

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