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Thread: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

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    Default Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    On Oct 27, 2018, at 6:08 PM, Patricia Peyton <ppeyton52246@gmail.com> wrote:

    An anguished question from a Trump supporter: "Why do liberals think Trump supporters are stupid?"

    The serious answer:

    Here’s what we really think about Trump supporters - the rich, the poor, the malignant and the innocently well-meaning, the ones who think and the ones who don't...

    That when you saw a man who had owned a fraudulent University, intent on scamming poor people, you thought "Fine."

    That when you saw a man who had made it his business practice to stiff his creditors, you said, "Okay."

    That when you heard him proudly brag about his own history of sexual abuse, you said, "No problem."

    That when he made up stories about seeing muslim-Americans in the thousands cheering the destruction of the World Trade Center, you said, "Not an issue."

    That when you saw him brag that he could shoot a man on Fifth Avenue and you wouldn't care, you chirped, "He sure knows me."

    That when you heard him illustrate his own character by telling that cute story about the elderly guest bleeding on the floor at his country club, the story about how he turned his back and how it was all an imposition on him, you said, "That's cool!"

    That when you saw him mock the disabled, you thought it was the funniest thing you ever saw.

    That when you heard him brag that he doesn't read books, you said, "Well, who has time?"

    That when the Central Park Five were compensated as innocent men convicted of a crime they didn't commit, and he angrily said that they should still be in prison, you said, "That makes sense."

    That when you heard him tell his supporters to beat up protesters and that he would hire attorneys, you thought, "Yes!"

    That when you heard him tell one rally to confiscate a man's coat before throwing him out into the freezing cold, you said, "What a great guy!"

    That you have watched the parade of neo-Nazis and white supremacists with whom he curries favor, while refusing to condemn outright Nazis, and you have said, "Thumbs up!"

    That you hear him unable to talk to foreign dignitaries without insulting their countries and demanding that they praise his electoral win, you said, "That's the way I want my President to be."

    That you have watched him remove expertise from all layers of government in favor of people who make money off of eliminating protections in the industries they're supposed to be regulating and you have said, "What a genius!"

    That you have heard him continue to profit from his businesses, in part by leveraging his position as President, to the point of overcharging the Secret Service for space in the properties he owns, and you have said, "That's smart!"

    That you have heard him say that it was difficult to help Puerto Rico because it was the middle of water and you have said, "That makes sense."

    That you have seen him start fights with every country from Canada to New Zealand while praising Russia and quote, "falling in love" with the dictator of North Korea, and you have said, "That's statesmanship!"

    That Trump separated children from their families and put them in cages, managed to lose track of 1500 kids. has opened a tent city incarceration camp in the desert in Texas - he explains that they’re just “animals” - and you say, “well, ok then.”

    That you have witnessed all the thousand and one other manifestations of corruption and low moral character and outright animalistic rudeness and contempt for you, the working American voter, and you still show up grinning and wearing your MAGA hats and threatening to beat up anybody who says otherwise.

    What you don't get, Trump supporters in 2018, is that succumbing to frustration and thinking of you as stupid may be wrong and unhelpful, but it's also...hear me...charitable.

    Because if you're NOT stupid, we must turn to other explanations, and most of them are *less* flattering.

    -Adam Troy Castro

    That should clear things up a bit
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Well said .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    ..most of them are *less* flattering.
    Certainly less flattering for Mrs. Clinton and her party.

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Because they double-down when they're wrong... instead of learning from their errors.

    Because they are SO bloody gullible --

    David G
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    It might be more illuminating to ask, given Trump's many faults, what did people find attractive about him?

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    That he was just like them?

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Donn View Post
    Certainly less flattering for Mrs. Clinton and her party.

    Yeah, if only Clinton and the Democratic Party embraced, fear, xenophobia, nihilism, vctimhood, resentment and preservation of traditional male hierarchy in a few choice voting districts of swing states where Russian efforts were at play.

    Darn that Clinton for not embracing boy talk.

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Btw I don’t think “they” are stupid.

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    It might be more illuminating to ask, given Trump's many faults, what did people find attractive about him?
    He 'acts' tough?
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    New headline this morning claims Trump's attack on the media "is working". God help us.

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    There is a large faction of Trumpistas who are not stupid. Those are the ones who are morally bankrupt and profit from the stupid ones.

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    There is a large faction of Trumpistas who are not stupid. Those are the ones who are morally bankrupt and profit from the stupid ones.
    Ayup... but I'm not sure you could accurately call them Trumpistas. Just greedy oligarchs. Trumpism is but a tool for them, not a belief or a commitment.
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Ayup... but I'm not sure you could accurately call them Trumpistas. Just greedy oligarchs. Trumpism is but a tool for them, not a belief or a commitment.
    What is the value of the distinction? Given that they themselves embrace it?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    I want not to offend but to diagnose but it seems to me that it is the liberals who educated America.

    I know this must be the case because President Trump has repeatedly informed us that we are a “stupid country” — he offered this opinion on at least nine occasions since he launched his campaign for the presidency — and he should know. When so many obviously intelligent and well-educated Americans claim that global warming is a “hoax”; when we seem obsessed with vilifying an entire, fourteen centuries-old religious tradition simply because of recent heinous actions of terrorists who profess to act in its name; when, nearly a century after the Scopes Trial, there is still significant public resistance to the theory of evolution, with one recent poll revealing that 34% of the population rejects evolution — over one third of the country! — and when voters elect a man so obviously unprepared and unfit to be president, I begin seriously to worry that we Americans are exhibiting greater and greater stupidity. Let me be clear: By “stupidity” I do not mean a lack of knowledge, education, skill or savvy. Stupidity is not the same as ignorance or incompetence or folly (although it often leads to foolish behavior). I do not mean it as some immature, all-purpose playground forum insult.

    yeah, I know. It is easy to blame the teachers.
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Donn View Post
    Certainly less flattering for Mrs. Clinton and her party.
    Is there a "Godwin Law" for the phenomenon where Hillary Clinton's name is evoked in any political debate. I'll be glad to have it called "Foster's Law"
    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    What is the value of the distinction? Given that they themselves embrace it?
    It's always good for clarity's sake to have language that distinguishes between people of similar behaviors but differing motivations.
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    I think you are on to something Ted, don't blame the professional teachers though, as someone once said "It takes a village to raise a child".
    Steve

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    A thought, after reading Ted's post. White evangelical Christians are Mr. Trump's most dedicated supporters. Given his history, behavior, and general standard of morality, that's kind of odd to say the least, but it's true. They are also the ones most likely to reject evolution, imagine the earth is 6000 years old, and think global warming is a hoax. To be an evangelical fundamentalist absolutely requires that you hold to your beliefs despite contrary evidence; this is seen as a virtue. If I were being unkind, I could call it willful stupidity, although of course they don't see it that way at all; 'having a strong faith' sounds a lot better. They are also more likely to be rural, southern, and older than the general population, and to feel like a shrinking and beleaguered minority in a country that was once theirs - this last having a fair amount of truth in it.

    Now some folks here have a tendency to lump all of Christianity together, a mistake I've often tried to correct. But a considerable fraction of US evangelicals really are as deluded as that. And as their numbers shrink (and they are indeed shrinking) they've been getting firmer in their delusions and politically more extreme.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 10-28-2018 at 10:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Trump supporters are anguished about what hateful liberals think
    I'm calling BS on this one.

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Isn't it abundantly clear at this point that the vast majority of Trumpistas couldn't care less what liberals think?

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    In fact, "caring about what liberals think" has directly led to Trump. Conservatives that don't conserve anything, precisely because they care what liberals think, have almost been entirely excised from the party.

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Isn't it abundantly clear at this point that the vast majority of Trumpistas couldn't care less what liberals think?
    There's abundant evidence that this isn't the case at all. It's quite common that those on the right express glee at things that get liberals angry or upset. You've done this yourself. This is not the behavior of people who don't care what they think.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    It might be more illuminating to ask, given Trump's many faults, what did people find attractive about him?
    no doubt, some found his positions attractive. however, When you have an election between two unelectable candidates, a unelectable candidate will win. i get the sense 2016 was more about voting against rather than voting for. The primary process failed for both parties.
    Last edited by CK 17; 10-28-2018 at 12:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    ... If I were being unkind, I could call it willful stupidity, ....
    Call it "willful blindness" instead, you're more likely to win over people if you don't call them stupid at the start of your conversation. You are spot on about cognitive dissonance in the evangelical/deeply religious community. I know a few, happy to partake in all good things science and education has brought to the world until it contradicts against some pillar of their faith and they reject it.
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    It's always good for clarity's sake to have language that distinguishes between people of similar behaviors but differing motivations.
    But that's just it, the motivations don't differ. The common denominator is greed. Some are fervent Christians -- by their definition -- while Trump isn't. They're all greedy. The rest is rationalization.

    Try to imagine some mountain monastery full of monks who've taken a vow of poverty, wearing MAGA hats and manning the phones for the RNC.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    Call it "willful blindness" instead, you're more likely to win over people if you don't call them stupid at the start of your conversation. You are spot on about cognitive dissonance in the evangelical/deeply religious community. I know a few, happy to partake in all good things science and education has brought to the world until it contradicts against some pillar of their faith and they reject it.
    I agree; 'willful blindness' is both kinder and more accurate. Saying either to someone's face would be totally counterproductive, of course. The trouble comes, I think, when believing something despite clear evidence to the contrary is seen as an essential virtue. I work with a few folks like that, who are quite bright, technically extremely competent, yet believe things that it's almost impossible to imagine a rational human being could believe. Winning them over seems entirety out of the question.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 10-28-2018 at 11:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    I'm sorry folks, but you're all wrong in a typically condescending liberal elite way. These people are not stupid - well no more stupid than everyone else. They just have different cultural values and priorities and they felt and continue to feel that their culture and values are constantly denigrated and mocked by the white liberal elites. And they're right. It happens here on this forum all the time and I myself have been guilty of it.

    It's not that these folks are too stupid to understand that Trump lies or all that other stuff. If you ask them specifically about those things most of them will admit that they are true. The thing that us liberal elites have to understand is that none of it matters to these folks because they are more concerned about larger cultural issues that most of us liberals and certainly the Democrat party are oblivious to or dismiss as being unimportant. These people voted the way they did not because they're stupid but because they've done the math and determined that TrumpCo represents the best hope of preserving their culture and values. Call it "willful blindness" if you will, but it's NOT ignorance or stupidity.

    The simple fact is that we liberal don't understand these folks at all. We arrogantly assume that the things WE value are the things that EVERYONE who is intelligent and educated and reasonable should value and we openly display our profound ignorance in threads like this. We will continue to lose voters and elections until such time that we stop looking at the rest of the country through OUR eyes and start seeing it through THEIRS.


    A book that might help you to understand this better:



    We liberal elites are guilty of "class cluelessness" and as such, we're no smarter than the folks we love to mock.

    Pless is right, liberals DO suck.
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianY View Post
    I'm sorry folks, but you're all wrong in a typically condescending liberal elite way. These people are not stupid - well no more stupid than everyone else. They just have different cultural values and priorities and they felt and continue to feel that their culture and values are constantly denigrated and mocked by the white liberal elites. And they're right. It happens here on this forum all the time and I myself have been guilty of it.

    It's not that these folks are too stupid to understand that Trump lies or all that other stuff. If you ask them specifically about those things most of them will admit that they are true. The thing that us liberal elites have to understand is that none of it matters to these folks because they are more concerned about larger cultural issues that most of us liberals and certainly the Democrat party are oblivious to or dismiss as being unimportant. These people voted the way they did not because they're stupid but because they've done the math and determined that TrumpCo represents the best hope of preserving their culture and values. Call it "willful blindness" if you will, but it's NOT ignorance or stupidity.

    The simple fact is that we liberal don't understand these folks at all. We arrogantly assume that the things WE value are the things that EVERYONE who is intelligent and educated and reasonable should value and we openly display our profound ignorance in threads like this. We will continue to lose voters and elections until such time that we stop looking at the rest of the country through OUR eyes and start seeing it through THEIRS.


    A book that might help you to understand this better:



    We liberal elites are guilty of "class cluelessness" and as such, we're no smarter than the folks we love to mock.

    Pless is right, liberals DO suck.
    Fine. Take all of that as a given.

    But even if we start there... the narrative they've been sold is an emotional one, and not factually, actually, correct in almost every case. They are wrong on the diagnosis - which makes them wrong on the prescriptions. And the strong emotional attachment to that false narrative... that they've allowed to be triggered in themselves... the refusal to demand more rationality and critical thinking of themselves... Makes Them Stupid. See Kanhemann's work on 'fast & slow' thinking.

    That doesn't mean that individually they are stupid, as you say - more than anyone else (though today's R's get far more support from the less educated than the D's do). But it does, as a consequence, make their approach to citizenship stupid. Bad candidates. Bad policies. Short-sightedness. Anger, fear, and resentment in lieu of thoughtful consideration. Rigidity. Tribalism. General Stupidity.
    David G
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Fine. Take all of that as a given.

    But even if we start there... the narrative they've been sold is an emotional one, and not factually, actually, correct in almost every case. They are wrong on the diagnosis - which makes them wrong on the prescriptions. And the strong emotional attachment to that false narrative... that they've allowed to be triggered in themselves... the refusal to demand more rationality and critical thinking of themselves... Makes Them Stupid. See Kanhemann's work on 'fast & slow' thinking.

    That doesn't mean that individually they are stupid, as you say - more than anyone else (though today's R's get far more support from the less educated than the D's do). But it does, as a consequence, make their approach to citizenship stupid. Bad candidates. Bad policies. Short-sightedness. Anger, fear, and resentment in lieu of thoughtful consideration. Rigidity. Tribalism. General Stupidity.
    Remove your blinders. "Bad" is subjective. If "Bad" candidates screw up in every way except the one that matters most to you, then he/she is not really "Bad". I also dispute that these folks don't engage in "thoughtful consideration". It's just that they reach different conclusions than you and I do. And tell me that liberals don't make decisions out of fear and anger, rigidity and tribalism especially these days...

    As for short sighted...yes, but if you're an unemployed coal miner in West Virginia who is struggling to put food on the table for your family and keep your house, who are you going to vote for - the guy who promises to bring coal jobs back or the one who says forget it, your way of life is over and you have to figure out how to do something else to earn a living? The latter may be right and that might be the correct long-term view, but it's not going to do anything to help you out of your present difficulties.

    As for "emotionalism" and being sold on false narratives...liberals are most certainly not immune to those things. We have our own myths and false narratives and we certainly react and develop policies for emotional rather than logical reasons. See the whole gun control debate for example.

    We are as "tribal" as the other side. We just dress it up in snobbery and classism that we pretend have a basis in reason and logic.
    I rather be an American than a Republican.

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    . . . they are more concerned about larger cultural issues that most of us liberals and certainly the Democrat party are oblivious to or dismiss as being unimportant.
    Some truth in the post in general, but I think that you're wrong that those on the left aren't concerned about those 'larger cultural issues'. We're just 100% opposed to the thinking on the right, particularly what's important to evangelical Christians. Pick a cultural issue that gets the right excited - gay marriage, abortion, immigration, scary brown folks, the decline of the influence of Christianity, take your pick - and the left is dead opposed, often vehemently so. These are not thing the Democratic party is unconcerned with. No compromise here; either abortion will be legal or it won't. Bob and Tom will be able to get married or they won't. One thing the right talks about a lot, and has put a lot of energy into doing, is to appoint judges that will enforce their ideas when their voting power has shrunk even further.
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    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Some truth in the post in general, but I think that you're wrong that those on the left aren't concerned about those 'larger cultural issues'. We're just 100% opposed to the thinking on the right, particularly what's important to evangelical Christians. Pick a cultural issue that gets the right excited - gay marriage, abortion, immigration, scary brown folks, the decline of the influence of Christianity, take your pick - and the left is dead opposed, often vehemently so. These are not thing the Democratic party is unconcerned with. No compromise here; either abortion will be legal or it won't. Bob and Tom will be able to get married or they won't. One thing the right talks about a lot, and has put a lot of energy into doing, is to appoint judges that will enforce their ideas when their voting power has shrunk even further.
    You're right but that's not exactly what I meant. I didn't express myself well. What I mean is that liberals and the Democrat party dismiss the reasons why the folks feel as they do about these cultural issues are unimportant.
    I rather be an American than a Republican.

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Well, perhaps. How should I do otherwise? When someone tells me abortion should be illegal because that's God's commandment? That gay marriage is a abomination because the bible says so? I need to take it seriously because these folks vote, but how can I, with any integrity, give that credence other than to find better ways to oppose it?

    I don't think their reasons are unimportant. I think they're wrong.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Well, perhaps. How should I do otherwise? When someone tells me abortion should be illegal because that's God's commandment? That gay marriage is a abomination because the bible says so? I need to take it seriously because these folks vote, but how can I, with any integrity, give that credence other than to find better ways to oppose it?

    I don't think their reasons are unimportant. I think they're wrong.
    Yes, but if we are to engage in any sort of productive dialog, we have to understand - not accept or agree with, but understand - where the other side is coming from. We can't simply dismiss it as being "wrong"
    I rather be an American than a Republican.

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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianY
    The simple fact is that we liberal don't understand these folks at all. We arrogantly assume that the things WE value are the things that EVERYONE who is intelligent and educated and reasonable should value and we openly display our profound ignorance in threads like this. We will continue to lose voters and elections until such time that we stop looking at the rest of the country through OUR eyes and start seeing it through THEIRS.
    I am a liberal. I think I understand these people. My brother-in-law is one of them. Is he stupid? No. Does he share my cultural values? That is an extremely mixed bag. Does he share my political beliefs? Not at all. And he is EXTREMELY ANGRY that non-whites, women, and LGBT people have gained political traction and power during his lifetime. Since they generally view the Democratic Party as best representing their interests he REALLY DESPISES the Democratic Party. Therefore he will vote for anyone the Republican Party nominates for public office. The character of the candidate is immaterial to him.

    Not to pick on my brother-in-law. The above describes a whole bunch of people with whom I work. I know what they think because they are loud and proud and I keep my mouth shut because I have to work with them daily. I want peace in my workplace and within my family.

    P.S. None of these people are hurting financially. The people I work with are all UAW represented Ford employees. My brother-in-law is retired on an FAA pension and continues to operate a very profitable cash business.
    Last edited by Tom Montgomery; 10-28-2018 at 01:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Why liberals think Trumpistas are stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianY View Post
    Yes, but if we are to engage in any sort of productive dialog, we have to understand - not accept or agree with, but understand - where the other side is coming from. We can't simply dismiss it as being "wrong"
    But in the end they are still wrong. So then what?

    They refuse to consider any evidence that threatens their beliefs. They ignore basic facts. They just "know" things--and continue to "know" them even after reality contradicts those things. Is there a better definition of "stupid?"

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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