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Thread: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

  1. #1
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    Default Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Well I'm finally getting to work on the engine....After sucking out acorn shells and half eaten pinecones from some squirrel family, I threw in the 6 volt battery. The rebuilt fuel pump seems to be working because I filled the site glass/filter and one of the two Carbs full of gas by the butterfly choke....So I've ordered two rebuild kits for the dual carbs...

    Compression Test::: the front most cylinder had NO compression and as I moved towards the transom on my Straight Six Flathead it went from 0 to 45 to 90 to 90 to 100 to 100 on the last cylinder. I gave a call to Mark Willis in Brookfield, Wi (engine rebuilder) and he said yes, rebuild the dual carbs and that he thought I had a stuck valve and he was correct....after pulling the head, I've sprayed SeaFoam into the valve area and will let it set for a while before I try to carefully tap the top of it with a plastic hammer (Marks suggestion)

    So I have a question about the head gasket....it looks like it's copper and in great shape....should I reuse it or order a new one....Mark suggested calling "Vintage Power Wagons" because that's where he get's his gaskets (these engines where in a lot of trucks I've heard).... on there site they show Flathead 6 Engine Head Gaskets for 218, 230, 237 and 251's cu.in... and looking in my manual I find the M47S to have a 265 Piston Displacement....so I'm confused...I'll call VPW on Monday...

    Appreciate any help!
    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin

    This is the stuck valve on the furthest forward cylinder.
    IMG_3917.jpgIMG_3913.jpg
    Last edited by erstadmr0355; 10-27-2018 at 01:35 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Bar the engine over and add some penetrating oil under each valve. (Kroil is good, CRC also, Patience is a virtue!)
    It is pretty easy to bend a valve (permanently) by "hitting" it. I have run into this stuck valve issue many times and use a brass or copper drift punch and try to center the blows in line with the dead center of the valve.
    A plastic hammer? Meh...

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    I would only use the old gasket if a new one isn't available but I would check very close that the new gasket is identical to the old. With that said I reused a head gasket on a 4 cyl Chris Craft engine I rebuilt and it worked fine. However, it was only used a short time to crank the engine up long enough to ID there was no cooling water in the exhaust. I shut it down and the condensed version is I took the head off to find one 1/2" dia water passage hole missing in the new gasket...I missed that when comparing old and new gasket so beware that car engine gaskets (which is what was supposed to match) may not have the same cooling water holes! Regardless, I punched out the hole, reinstalled and ran 2-3 yrs before selling the boat. That was 40 yrs ago so no telling what aftermarket gasket you will get today for a 1950s marine engine.

    Low compression could be as simple as stuck rings but lots of carbon on piston tops can burn holes in their tops with same results. To the point you have that one taken apart it really isn't a big effort to replace pistons, etc and do a valve job. Piston tops are probably marked with their size too.

    Good luck.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Well,... now that you have the head off,.............
    I have had the #1 exhaust valve stick too.
    If it were me,.... and I have been there with my current engines....
    I spray the valve stem down from the top with WD40, then with the intake valve open, so you know the exhaust should be closed, (as mentioned above) give the valve head a tap on center with a brass drift and hammer. It could take anything from just a tap and it will pop down to needing repeated taps to work it down. If it does need coaxing all the way down I would just start it going down and then grab the head with some large goose-neck pliers and rotate the head back and forth ... with some additional WD40 along the way.
    Given all the other valves work just fine I suspect that one should free up pretty easily. When mine was sticking I could pop it free through the sparkplug hole without pulling the head.

    With the head off you should check the bottom with a straight edge. These long long thin heads warp, .... my two heads were both warped about .020”. If it is warped it needs to go to a good engine shop to be machined flat (mine were $75 each). They will have a much higher chance of cracking if left warped.

    I would put very little meaning on any compression numbers at this point (I think I said this when you first posted). When I first looked at my engines I had numbers like yours (about 10 - maybe 80). After three months of using the engines I have numbers all within 10% and about 115.

    The head gasket you want to find is Felpro # 2205504. I have bought my gaskets on EBay ,... $30 - $60 typically. I just did some googling and there is a place with them for $72.

    you do need to replace the head gasket, head gaskets shouldn’t be used over. However,...... given where things are with your engine I would free the valve, put it back together with this head gasket and get it running. After getting it running for a while and you can realistically asses the condition of the engine you can then replace the gasket if things seem good.

    I run zinc replacement in the crank case oil and lead replacement and Marvel Mystery Oil in the gas. These do help the old flat tappet engines.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Low compression could be as simple as stuck rings but lots of carbon on piston tops can burn holes in their tops with same results. To the point you have that one taken apart it really isn't a big effort to replace pistons, etc and do a valve job. Piston tops are probably marked with their size too.

    Good luck.[/QUOTE]

    The piston heads had a little carbon on there tops, but after applying Sea Foam Deep Creep, the heads cleaned to a shinny surface and the valve tops are pretty nice also... I picked up a set of brass drift punches and will try tomorrow to tap the valve down...

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Hmmmm,..... on a flat head engine that is still in the boat there is a whole different scale of work between having the head off and getting the pistons out.
    Yes, it is easy to do a valve job, but there is a reason the phrase was always “ ring and valve job”. With just a valve job you can end up burning more oil.
    I would still put it back together and see how it runs.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....


    I picked up a set of brass drift punches and will try tomorrow to tap the valve down...
    Do this while the valve next to it (in the same cylinder) is open.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Canoeyawl,

    Absolutely, otherwise I'd be tapping down with nowhere to go....
    Thanks for the note on that...
    Mike

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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Yep, pulling pistons is more effort but I guess it depends on a person's threshold of pain. I did a valve job on a mounted Atomic 4 and decided not do pull pistons and check them. Ended up having to replace the rings anyway and it was way more hassle than doing it in the first place. Unbolt everything and jack up enough to pull the pan. Unfortunately old rusty bolts don't always come out so easy and you have to plan for it.

    FYI: For soaking stuck engines and parts...I did a test on Seafoam compared to Startron. Both claim to dissolve petroleum grunge. I took samples of 20 yr old 2 stroke outboard gas that was the consistency of tar. The samples were collected by dragging #14 wood screw threads through the gunk and placing the screws in glass jars. Then I poured Seafoam in one and Startron in the other. Within 30 minutes the Seafoam started melting the gunk off and the next morning the entire sample was turned to liquid. Startron did nothing sitting on the bench for about a month. It didn't melt or dissolve anything and was more like using water for the test.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Thanks for the response BillP,

    Good to hear that Sea Foam works well....the assistant manager at O'Reillys said that Sea Foam Deep Creep really works well, but a bit pricy...

    I'll be out in the garage later today to see if I can move it.....I'm guessing this valve is up and stuck because it's just where it was when the engine was turn off some time ago.

    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by erstadmr0355 View Post
    Thanks for the response BillP,

    Good to hear that Sea Foam works well....the assistant manager at O'Reillys said that Sea Foam Deep Creep really works well, but a bit pricy...

    I'll be out in the garage later today to see if I can move it.....I'm guessing this valve is up and stuck because it's just where it was when the engine was turn off some time ago.

    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin
    I've never tried heat on a valve but it's easy to shoot a heat gun on it and Seafoam works much better with heat. Doing a couple heat/cool cycles may help break it free...I've used heat and then ice to shock parts free on corroded motor parts. Hard stuck parts have taken 5-10 cycles to break free so don't expect it to happen quickly. Learned from the school of hard knocks!

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Ok, Good News....I went out this morning and was able to slowly tap the valve down, then with a few cranks from the starter it popped up again, more spray, tapped it down and repeated this about 6 times and now she's soaking with some more Sea Foam Deep Creep....yet unable to rotate the valve....Later today I'll check her again....

    Thanks So Much for all the responses!!!
    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    That valve is most likely stuck because it sees the least oil. It is on the uphill end of the engine and therefore gets the least oil. The exhaust valve stems also are the ones to get varnish buildup.

    Just finished changing the oil in my Crowns about two hours ago, ten quarts each.

    If it is that sticky it’s probably worth popping it out and cleaning the stem an guide. This is quite easy to do. Remove the side cover, get in there with a spring compressor, pull the keepers (stuff some little rag pieces into the holes to the crank case so you don’t loose a keeper down there) pull the valve and clean things up and reverse the order.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by nedL; 10-28-2018 at 07:28 PM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    nedL,
    The Valve is loose and now goes up and down on its own....I can also turn it......gave it a good saturation of Sea Foam for an over nite soaking....

    Was thinking of removing the side covers after I pull the dual carbs....they said 4 to 5 weeks to make the rebuild kit but I can still pull the carbs and take a look inside the covers/springs before the carb rebuild kits come...

    Mike

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    If you do remove the side covers, replacement gaskets are as close as your local NAPA.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Napa, Thanks nedL.....

    nedL, you mentioned the head gasket....but I'm having trouble finding the correct one... you mentioned Felpro # 2205504, bu when I go to Fel-Pro's site the gasket is not perfectly rectangle, on one end it has a bump out for what looks like another bolt hole... Ebay doesn't produce the correct one as well...

    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Hi Mike,

    My 1958 M47S is out of the boat now and heading out for a total rebuild later this week (as soon as the brakes on the truck are fixed!). Here's the initial discussion that lead to that decision:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...put-on-engines

    My compression is terrible. No zeros, admittedly, but I've got 70-110. It just needs rings and valves and everything else, as someone said.

    I replaced the head gasket last winter, optimistically hoping that was the problem. It was wishful, I know. I ordered one from Dave Van Ness. Call him up (you'll probably speak with his wife) and he'll send you the correct gasket.

    www.vannessengineering.com

    20180327_213632.jpg

    20180220_200033.jpg

    Keep the updates coming!

    Jeff

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    If you remove the tappet cover (and you should!) I would go ahead and clean, lap and adjust the valves!

    (Keep them in order, wire wheel them, then lap them with a smidge of fine valve lapping compound, and the adjustment will stay set. Otherwise, the carbon and surface rust will prevent an accurate adjustment. This is far easier to do now than later!)

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by guillemot View Post

    20180220_200033.jpg

    Keep the updates coming!

    Jeff
    Be careful! The one full beer could put enough uneven pressure on the crank to do damage. Best that you drink it quickly!

    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by erstadmr0355 View Post
    Napa, Thanks nedL.....

    nedL, you mentioned the head gasket....but I'm having trouble finding the correct one... you mentioned Felpro # 2205504, bu when I go to Fel-Pro's site the gasket is not perfectly rectangle, on one end it has a bump out for what looks like another bolt hole... Ebay doesn't produce the correct one as well...

    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin


    That extra "bump" causes no issues, the gaskets I have used have that bump. It took me a while to figure out and learn that the gaskets with the bump are a good bit easier to find, are generally less expensive, and work fine.




    I would take a look at this one https://www.ebay.com/itm/CHRYSLER-MA...S!-1:rk:2:pf:0

    I might see if the seller can verify the overall length.


    For those side cover gaskets you just need to ask for the valve cover gaskets for something like an , ......... ohh maybe 1958 Chrysler 265 CID valve cover gasket. They can look it up by the engine. You don't ask for a Chrysler Crown M47. You ask for a chrysler car or truck engine. take the valve cover with you so they can compare to the diagram. As I remember it was about $12 a set.
    Last edited by nedL; 10-29-2018 at 11:48 AM.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    The "bump" in the head gasket is for an internal waterpump bypass port (late) vs. external (early, no bump)
    (If I remember correctly you can use it one way but not the other, maybe a late gasket on an early block?)

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    I've purchased single gaskets but found it's way cheaper to buy a complete gasket set if doing heads, valves and a few other bolt on parts that need gaskets. Does anyone make gasket sets for this engine?

    Lapping valve has been mentioned and I agree 100%. It can be done with a simple $6 hand operated suction cup tool and compound from the auto parts store. I used an electric drill to lap once but decided the hand operated suction one is less prone to home brew operator error.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Thanks for all the replies....I especially like the photo of the beer bottles in the cylinder openings....Both my neighbors complain that I don't have any beer in the garage, so I ordered a small fridge and it should be here this week for my neighborly moochers!

    I just dropped off the head to have it resurfaced and am also changing the oil/filter....This engine calls for 30 weight oil but several guys mentioned using 5W30 with a little Marvel Mystery Oil added to it and then crank the engine over several times to circulate the mixture...

    Oh, I found a nice used Valve Spring compression tool on eBay so that's on it's way...

    What else did I spend money on....oh yea, I ordered a 20' and two 10' Micro Lam beams along with 4, 6 by 6's to support the beams for raising the engine and flipping the boat...I also have two 1000 pound pulleys coming along with some chain hoists to help with that.

    Non-Stop Fun here in Eagle River-----Thanks Everyone....

    Mike

    Here's a current picture of the engine.....My oil extractor sucking the oil out of the oil filter canister(I couldn't get anymore out of the dip stick so I ran the starter and the oil canister filled right up). My flash lite with magnetic end stuck to the exhaust if you were wondering what that was...

    IMG_3930.jpg This is much more fun than having twin 330hp Vortec Engines that I didn't have to do anything to except change the fluids...We sold that boat in 2017....
    110844179089578.jpg

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    I use either 5/30 or 20/30 weight oil, I don’t think it much matters which for these engines. I use Marvel Mystery Oil too. It is also good to add zinc replacement.
    After the appropriate amount of frustration I finally realized the best way to suck the oil out is through the fill tube hole. With some wiggling and pulling the oil fill tube should come out of the block, this gives a good path to the oil pan to suck the oil out.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by erstadmr0355 View Post
    nedL, you mentioned the head gasket....but I'm having trouble finding the correct one...
    I think you said yours was solid copper ? If it's in good shape, copper is okay to re-use. Anneal it by heating it red - even a propane torch will do that - then dunk it end-on into water. That will turn it dead soft.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Most likely a copper/asbestos sandwich, with a crimped "fire ring"

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Most likely a copper/asbestos sandwich, with a crimped "fire ring"
    yes,......... this is what they are.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    My head gasket "Looks" like copper but I haven't lifted it off yet....I'll do that tomorrow...I'd guess it's like Canoeyawl said, Copper/Asbestos sandwich...

    And thanks for the tip on how to extract the oil.....I was able to add 10 qts of 5/30

    Thanks All!!!
    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin...

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    I have gotten away with reusing these copper/asbestos askets many times, but sometimes not...
    (To save an hour of todays wages, I wouldn't even consider it, let alone try it. That gasket is readily available for less than $50)

    If it was an engine that a head gasket was not available, short of having one made for hundreds of dollars, I would definitely try it.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Here is the 2205 504 gasket.
    Last edited by nedL; 10-29-2018 at 09:14 PM.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Complete set w/ copper head gasket on Amazon for $125 (a copper gasket is desirable if there is any chance the engine may be raw water cooled)

    https://www.amazon.com/Chrysler-Dodg.../dp/B014VGRRZ4






  32. #32
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    That’s not bad at all. It is much easier to adjust the lash with the manifold off, so out of this set you would use the head gasket, valve cover gaskets and the manifold gaskets.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    I can't believe how fast you guys respond.....it's amazing and Thanks for helping....

    Didn't know I had a number on my gasket...I'll be pulling it tomorrow. Didn't know there were two dime size riveted copper plates on my carburetors either until I called to order rebuild kits and the guy on the other end was patient enough to have me run out to the garage, crawl in the boat until I found the numbers....
    I guess most everything has numbers on them.....I wish I would've taken a shop class on engines at the "Learnstatuite" years ago!

    Thanks Again,
    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Well, I guess I could pull the Manifold off....I'll look at that tomorrow as well....
    Mike

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Hey Mike, forklifts with chain work as good as anything to pull engines. For boats in the water I used the extended forks. It's much easier than doing homemade stuff.

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