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Thread: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Question: Where do I find a 6 Volt Ignition Coil....I see some on eBay but are they different....

    looks like I can find the cap and rotor without a problem...
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CHRYSLE...53.m1438.l2649

    Thanks Much,
    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by erstadmr0355 View Post
    Question: Where do I find a 6 Volt Ignition Coil....I see some on eBay but are they different....

    looks like I can find the cap and rotor without a problem...
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CHRYSLE...53.m1438.l2649

    Thanks Much,
    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin
    https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHIC7 is one option.

    This is a place where having a parts store with a knowledgeable counterman is hugely helpful. Unfortunately, those stores are few & far between. I'd reach out to rebuilders, auto-electic shops where the owner is over 50, or if you're lucky, one of those parts stores.

    I don't know about 6 volt systems, but many 12 volt chrysler products used a ballast resistor with the coil (on a csr it was usually mounted on the firewall). It'd look something like this:

    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHIC7 is one option.

    This is a place where having a parts store with a knowledgeable counterman is hugely helpful. Unfortunately, those stores are few & far between. I'd reach out to rebuilders, auto-electic shops where the owner is over 50, or if you're lucky, one of those parts stores.

    I don't know about 6 volt systems, but many 12 volt chrysler products used a ballast resistor with the coil (on a csr it was usually mounted on the firewall). It'd look something like this:


    Yup. Many 12 volt conventional ignition coils are actually 6 volts. The ballast resistor is bypassed during starting, the rest of the time the coil is operating on 6 volts through the resistor.
    Ratus ratus bilgeous snipeous!

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  4. #74
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by erstadmr0355 View Post
    Looking back, I guess I'm at this point with the engine because I was hoping to get it started to decide if it needed a rebuild....
    Heck, you've got it 1/2 torn down now anyhow and it's coming out of the boat ... checking the pistons and crank isn't much more. Flatheads are so simple, I'd probably do the whole thing now that you've come this far.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Adams View Post
    Yup. Many 12 volt conventional ignition coils are actually 6 volts. The ballast resistor is bypassed during starting, the rest of the time the coil is operating on 6 volts through the resistor.
    Hmmm,.... I thought the ballast resistors dropped voltage to about 9 volts?

    I added ballast resistors to my engines and didn’t even bother bypassing them during starting (to provide a “hotter” spark during starting). They start just fine.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    That ballast resistor shown above is an open resistance coil shedding excess voltage as heat. Sometimes they will glow red hot and I don't think they have any place in or near the engine compartment of a gasoline powered boat.
    A 6 volt coil can be purchased almost anywhere with or without an internal resistor. (My guess from here is you will need a coil with an internal resistor.)

    Marine distributors are often very different from their automotive cousins. Any source of spark should be isolated. Both the distributor (cap/rotor) and the points are usually shielded (As are the generator and starter) This is a place where less expensive "will fit" automotive components can lead to trouble.

    You may be able to change from a points ignition to electronic ignition which is a sealed unit eliminating one source of explosion. (Pertronix, BTW uses no voltage drop so a coil without an internal resistor is used)

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Auto coils work fine (as do auto points and condensers) and the only difference I've noticed between marine and auto is a rubber coating and 4x the cost. I replaced a couple and they had exposed lugs like auto coils. When they went obsolete I used auto coils with internal resistors without failure on inboards and outboards. Some old marine engine coils used long "resistor wires" (the length is the resistance) that lead back to the helm and they don't even get warm...unless you leave the key on without the engine running. They can usually be identified as a red/white candy stripe but if replacing the coil its simpler to use a coil with internal resistor and toss the red/whites. If an external resistor glows and supports combustion you have the wrong resistor.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    what Canoeyawl said...replace with petronix electronic ignition and forget about future ignition problems .

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug B View Post
    what Canoeyawl said...replace with petronix electronic ignition and forget about future ignition problems .
    i certainly agree. no points to set or pit and also no spark to blow up your boat is another bonus.

    jim

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug B View Post
    what Canoeyawl said...replace with petronix electronic ignition and forget about future ignition problems .
    +1 - I did it on my CC & because that engine uses the "uniset" points - which have gotten crazy expensive - the electronic replacement was about the same as 2 sets of points. It does still use a coil though & I'd see what coil pertonix recommends for a 6V system.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by MADOC1 View Post
    i certainly agree. no points to set or pit and also no spark to blow up your boat is another bonus.

    jim
    There is still an internal "spark" between the rotor and cap terminal posts. In marine applications this area is usually isolated from the actual points with a cover of some sort.
    (True "marine" distributor caps are never vented to atmoshere, unlike an automotive cap)

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Today I pulled the covers off from the Tappets and springs...

    IMG_3981.jpg

    When on my third valve removal I set the keepers on a wood slat, then knocked one of the keepers somewhere into the boats bilge....
    After looking and looking I headed to O'Reillys and they could not help....So back to the boat and start searching again....Well I found it....from now on they go into a ziplock bag. The valves look like there in really good shape, so a little lapping and back in they go....4 done so far...

    IMG_3982.jpg

    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug B View Post
    what Canoeyawl said...replace with petronix electronic ignition and forget about future ignition problems .
    A lot of the problems that old cars and motorcycles had were because of crappy ignition. You can cure a lot of hard-starting, bad running problems with a gazillion-volt extended-length spark and get better reliaility*. Electronic ignitions are pretty nice.

    *Except when they do go bad, electronic doesn't limp you home, it just quits. But that's pretty rare.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    I still run points (with ballast resistor) and havenít had to touch anything. Cleaned the points after sitting for 24 years, but that is it.

    as I mentioned, I would suggest stuffing a piece of rag in these drain holes so a keeper doesnít end up in the pan if it slips.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    nedL,

    Yes those holes....that was a "Holly Crap" moment when I first started and didn't realize they were there....
    So, I do have them stuffed with paper towel now.... Currently I have 4 valves done and will be working on the rest today...

    Is this area (the tappets/springs) usually this clean or is this engine looking pretty good to you guys?

    Mike
    Frosty Eagle River, Wisconsin

    The Windshield cleaned up pretty good....tree sap came off with Alcohol...

    IMG_3962.jpg

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    There is still an internal "spark" between the rotor and cap terminal posts. In marine applications this area is usually isolated from the actual points with a cover of some sort.
    (True "marine" distributor caps are never vented to atmoshere, unlike an automotive cap)
    ah, my bad. can i blame it on old age?

    jim

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Mike, the inside does look good,... however, the purpose of using Glyptal paint (that red paint) is to provide a slippery surface so the oil will drain back down into the crank case more quickly (and because it seals the case iron it keeps things cleaner).
    The fact that Glyptal was used shows that your engine is a bit better than just one of the masses of Crowns.

    I would say a good indication will be to check the bottoms of the little ‘troughs’ or trays in the casting in front of the lifters. I have found what settles in these to be a good indicator. Is there dirty black residue in the bottom of them or are they clean? There are no drains in the bottom of them, so if the oil is dirty they will be dirty in the bottom.

    see where I mark this picture.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by nedL; 11-08-2018 at 12:07 PM.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    I still run points (with ballast resistor) and haven’t had to touch anything. Cleaned the points after sitting for 24 years, but that is it.
    I'm lazy and I don't much like electronics either, so if it was operational I'd probably leave it alone. But if I had to buy parts, may as well go electronic.

    I'm old enough to where I ran both in the past, and the electronic ignition works so much better and is so much less maintenance. It's pretty nice, even on a flatty.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    nedL,
    Those troughs are sparkly clean....not a darn thing in them.....

    But: ​When it came to pulling the valve that was originally stuck open.....man, that was still super tight...yes it came up and down under cam and spring pressure but I had to use a very thin screwdriver to tap between the top of the tappet and bottom of valve stem to get the darn thing started up and out.... see pictures...
    There seems to be a poor casting on this one valve....not a scratch but missing material...
    IMG_3989.jpgIMG_3990.jpg
    After cleaning the valve it still wouldn't slide up and down so I took 1500 grit sandpaper, rolled it up and put it into the end of a drill and spun the 1500 grit sand paper up, down and around in the Valve Race until that valve slid down with ease....
    IMG_3992.jpg

    IMG_3985.jpgHere's the valve right after removal/before cleaning...

    Martini Time
    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Hmmm,.... so far it seems like you have a low hour upgrade engine. Not bad. ...

    oh,... and I typo’ed,... I meant 14 years, not 24 years for the age of my ignition components.

    As an FYI,..... if for any reason you should find yourself in need of a replacement intake valve, uhm,.... let me know.

    For cleaning the valve guides I would more recommend a piece of rag wrapped around a small dowel (with acetone or similar solvent) worked up and down by hand.
    Last edited by nedL; 11-08-2018 at 08:31 PM.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    I was wondering what automotive engine it is based on, and whether a supplier such as RockAuto would have some parts for it.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Quote Originally Posted by Stiletto View Post
    I was wondering what automotive engine it is based on, and whether a supplier such as RockAuto would have some parts for it.
    The Crown is the 265 CID Chrysler car and small truck engine. A lot of basic parts are as far away as NAPA.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    The engine looks good, it is nice to see that glyptal coating.

    That valve is showing a corrosion crevice and I would probably replace it now that it was in my hand. Valves break and they don't cost much... $10-15?
    Is it an intake or exhaust valve? Try a magnet on it, both on the head and the stem. Some Chrysler (Mopar) truck engines were equipped with Sodium filled valves which is excellent for heat transfer but can be really problematic with age (they break) There may be a part number stamped around the stem just at or near the end, check it out it will be tiny, but perhaps useful.

    Note also any burrs on the valves were they have been in contact with the lifter, this is common and can score the guide when removing and replacing them. There should be a nice little chamfer on the end of the stem, no sharp edges.
    exit to add; There may be burrs on the stem at the retainer groove/s. Gently file those off with a nice sharp "smooth cut" mill file. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001R1QCW6/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

    Valve guides are cast iron, which is porous and the very last place you want to introduce abrasives. Try your best to clean and flush those thoroughly after running sandpaper in them, before installation.


    A lifetime ago I had a contract to service and maintain a fleet of fork lifts (which would include anything from a tune up to replacing a crankshaft), all were fitted with a Chrysler industrial six (which is the same engine for all practical purposes). I have forgotten far more than I remember about them though!

    Break on dotted line!

    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 11-08-2018 at 10:10 PM.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    rockauto has an exhaust valve for a 1952 265 c.i. for $12 and some cents.

    jim

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Me too as regards being spanked by ignition. Apart from the environmental effects Jake mentioned, the distributors on my M blocks wouldn't advance and retard properly, was worn out and wouldn't operate properly.needed to be rebuilt. I went electronic when that wasn't the perfect answer. Nobody noticed but me.

    Finally I re-powered but that's another story and it wasn't totally about the flat heads.

    Really fun thread to read.
    Last edited by Lew Barrett; 11-09-2018 at 03:06 PM.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Definitely replace that valve with the corrosion....
    Simon

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Well, I went to O'Reillys and they couldn't find it.

    MADOC1 what is the part number...

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    $100 the set, new

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1942-1968-C...EAAOSwFnFV~G6s


    edit; note the part number stamped on stem (unusual not to find that)
    The S-2 designation may indicate sodium filled valves, I don't know. New valves you can shake them and hear it inside the hollow stem. Old valves, they just break!
    Rumor has it that Sodium filled valves were common on "Chrysler" (Dodge) truck and other heavy duty applications, maybe marine? (I am familiar with them on performance engines from the 60's and folks are very wary if them if they have been used)
    The rpm level and spring pressures on the little flathead six are very modest and would not give me cause for alarm.

    IMG_4330.jpg
    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 11-09-2018 at 09:26 PM.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Ok, using a magnet it seems like the valve is all metal, stem and head....

    I shook it and it doesn't make any noise...

    The Numbers on the valve in question are.....
    SPE 1020X B-G

    And it is an Exhaust valve

    IMG_3993.jpgIMG_3994.jpgIMG_3995.jpg

    Why are some of the exhaust valves listed on the eBay site a different color on the tops?
    Screen Shot 2018-11-10 at 8.53.03 AM.jpg

    So, should I purchase the ones on eBay?

    Appreciated all your help...
    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin
    Last edited by erstadmr0355; 11-10-2018 at 09:55 AM.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    i just went to rockauto.com and looked up an exhaust valve for a 1952 chrysler 265 six cykinder engine. sealed power #v1004. they also give the dimensions. good luck. also no reason to replace the others if they look good. just be sure to replace them in the same hole as they came out of.

    jim

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    The ebay valves look different

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    My exhaust valves are tapered near the keepers... see photo,

    IMG_3993.jpg

    The valves at Rock Auto on eBay have a straight shaft...

    Screen Shot 2018-11-10 at 9.45.35 AM.jpg

    Mike
    Eagle River, Wisconsin

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    you are correct about the rockauto and the first two ebay listings, but further down is a set of sodium filled ones with the tapered end for $165 a set and it looks like they come with new guides also.

    jim

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Crown M47S Head Gasket....

    Yes, you will need to search by your original part# on the valve or by dimension.

    I can't tell if the keeper diameter is reduced or the stem is enlarged. It could be either way. A larger diameter stem may indicate "Heavy Duty".
    All that stuff predates the internet, but there are books! You may have to find someone that has either direct knowledge or
    "the book"! I can make a call on Monday if you wish.

    "Melling" is the largest manufacturer of valves/cams and etc. in the US they will know the answer. You may need to ask for technical support.
    I will dig a little bit more...

    edit;
    https://www.melling.com/wp-content/u...size-chart.pdf

    https://www.melling.com/wp-content/u...tion-chart.pdf

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