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Thread: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

  1. #1
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    Default Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    How to brace it properly. How/who de mast it ready for shipment on container ship, or specialized ship.
    Last edited by Hooligan navy; 10-21-2018 at 01:19 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Is the schooner carrying cargo, or maybe the schooner IS the cargo?
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    She is or, will be the cargo.

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooligan navy View Post
    How to brace it properly. How/who de masts it ready for shipment on container ship?
    You know...If "wishes" were horses....then beggars would ride...?
    And...If turnips were watches...I would wear one by my side! ?
    Also...if "ifs and and's" were pots and pans...The tinker would RULE the world!! ?

    Your posts don't make a lot of sense to me.
    Anyway, I would not brace and ship an old wooden schooner (or any old wooded traditional carvel boat) to have it covered with "fiberglass'! No matter how much I think they should be "saved".
    Just my 2 cents!!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    It just doesn't seem right to let the chainsaws have her. I am a total novice and glad I'm not the owners, but I know the older Alden schooners have so much heritage. It seems to me that hauling one of these old girls out of the water for a reconstruction would require massive bracing right away or she would just melt. A Viking burial off the coast of Maine might serve better.

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Let me get this straight, you want to ship some old big wooden boat as deck cargo somewhere? And you ask how this might be done? The answer is simple, with lots and lots of nice green pieces of paper that serve as legal tender. A million of them might be about right.
    Seriously, getting the boat aboard a container ship is only possible with the help of a chainsaw to make it fit several containers.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Im not aware of which particular boat you are contemplating.

    But, the way to move a large schooner of questionable integrity would be to brace up the interior very well prior to hauling out, and then haul it out and place it in a large cradle that will support the hull from the outside as well. Then, if its too large for over-the-road trucking, it could be possibly be shipped as deck cargo, or maybe place onto a semi-submersible cargo ship that ships boat.

    There is no cheap or easy way.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    I struggle with your idea that this just some old wooden boat. Give her a chance ....send some greenbacks, or a brave crew to sail her home.

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Of course she's just some old wooden boat, and a hypotetical one I might add, since you graceously avoided giving out any details. Maybe you think if you do, somebody will rush in to steal the deal of a lifetime from you. That's your right of course, but communication might not be what you expect if you insist on doing this. I doubt you can find a crew without disclosing at least starting point and destination.

    So yes, without any details I imagine some tired old boat, rotting away at some mooring or dock. She might have a salvageable interior and masts, the rigging and sails need replacing, the motor is chunk of unreliable rusting iron, her frames are half broken and half rotten, her planks a patchwork of dutchmen and butt blocks and the only things staying between her and the bottom of the sea is a thin layer of semiatached fiberglass and the bilge pumps. A long time ago she had a financially potent owner who used her to spruce up his social life and minor celebrities used to decorate her deck and cabins sipping cocktails and puffing cigars while the hired hands raced her. Or maybe the owner was a keen corinthian and drilled his friends around the buoys. Those days are long gone, now her value is in her lead keel and bronze fittings.

    How am I doing so far, is that a good description of your hypothetical boat? If yes then either put up the money to properly restore her where she is or get the plans from the museum, cut her up carefully, load the remains on a truck and rebuild her in your backyard. Shipping her as deck cargo to some undisclosed port is likely to cost almost as much as the restauration, because she's not some standard size steel box you stack with a crane on top of other boxes for a flat rate.

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    You have a strange sense of "value" of an older Alden schooner. Yes she is a real boat and worth restoring. She is not for sale so there is no rush. She is a long way from her builders and there are very few who "qualify". It seems that you may know some of these so called "yachtsmen". They are the reason this schooner is in the shape she's in, shame on them.....but step1, step 2, step 3, and so on.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Sawzall is the better tool. Chainsaws are over rated for schooner demo.
    Bi metal bayonet blades.

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooligan navy View Post
    You have a strange sense of "value" of an older Alden schooner...
    Nope, I'm a realist. Example: Zaida III, 65' Alden cutter. Advertised for 75 000USD. http://rockportmarine.com/brokerage/...-alden-cutter/

    11t lead ballast = 15-20 000USD
    All original bronze winches = 5 000 USD
    Toilet plus sanitation device = 1 000USD
    New mainsail cover = 1 000 USD
    Mainsail + genoa in usable condition = 3 000USD
    1997 Yanmar + transmission running = 5 000USD
    Spars + hardware = 10 000USD
    Mahagony and butternut interior = 10 000USD
    Miscellaneous = 5-10 000USD

    That's 55 - 65 000 USD. The rest up to asking price is negotiating room. Of course this is only valid if one intends to restore her.
    If you were to scrap her there is enough lead and bronze in her structure to make over 20 000USD on the spot, plus all the reusable pieces you have to sell individually, wich might bring another 20 000 USD over time. So her true value keeping in mind the wrecking expenses and time to sell all the other stuff might be around 25 000USD.

    All the history, glamour, Hooligans Navy stories, are just bait for that half million (minimum) check needed to give her a new lease on life. Facts of life my friend. Her beeing a schooner instead of a cutter would not change the equation one bit.

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Apparently you wanting to save this boat has some people angrier than they normally are. But their point has to be driven home at times. Just the cost of taking the mast down building a rigid steel cradle and hiring cranes to lift it all, is probably going to be extremely expensive, no way around it. Average crane (100 ft and under) operators over the years have cost us $300- $500 an hour. For large cranes I have no idea. if it's a 60ft boat per your other thread. Where you're shipping it from and where you're shipping it to is another question, I think shipping containers are limited to 53 feet so that may be an issue I really don't know. There are famous well founded, beautiful old wooden boats sitting rotting away because someone thought they were worth saving and it did not happen the Coronet comes to mind, I think funding disappeared on her. As you state that you're a novice I would suggest you try restoring something under 20 feet before spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to save something that in the end won't be saved anyhow, because almost noone will want it. I just don't think there are that many philanthropists that love wood boats. So I think the boat bucks for this should be in the number 10000 rather than 1000 My Wag is it's going to cost you 30 K just to get her moved. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...t=#post5700825
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Granted, but there has been many schooners where $500,000 has done quite nicely, and now their incomes put quite a smile on the faces of guests and owners. Maintenance is the #1 job over the life of any boat, and if the money is invested properly, of course that's job one. I believe some of the older boats pass from owner to owner simply because the money (borrow another thousand) runs out and they cut their losses, hopefully putting the boat in the hands of a new family who can afford the incredible costs.....but alas some boats fall into a state of poor maintenance and "slip" into yearning for open water. Once a boat falls into poor maintenance she never sails again. Unless one of the very few progressive non-profits with deep pockets, makes her day.

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    "Its not going to be cheap or easy"........well expensive and hard works just as well. It's the master craftsmen and "skippers" who love their trade, who stay on top, and remain "on course".

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    If your trying to move a large beat up schooner pretty much the only option is to sail or tow her. That means you're going to need a crew who knows the risks and knows what they're
    doing, you could probably ease her down the coast but it could literally take years of waiting for weather windows. All of that leads to the second more important question, why would you move a schooner that needs restoration away from New England? Maine is probably the best place in the world to find people and yards willing to take on a large schooner project.

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    Lookie look, I hope this is not the mystery boat. Good grief!
    https://youtu.be/qbmWTk7-WxE
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    I have a mind to ask previous owners but it would do no good, the schooner boat is far away from her builders. I agree with you 110% about Maine being the gold standard. I received a post about a "semi-submersible" boat hauler which I'm intreagued by.

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    I think that this is one of many sailboats that has fallen into the well intentioned hands of one person instead of many. Projects like these are not for the faint of heart, but once done, sailing them puts a smile on faces.

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    No, but being out of the water with a survey would give people a real chance to "make a decision" . The owners have made the choice.

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    We once brought the Hugh Angleman and Charles Davies Sea Witch and Bounty Ketches in as deck cargo on ships from the Orient. All we did was to off load them cradle and all into the water. The cradle was floated free and picked up by a service for the freighting company for the next boat. If you contact a boat moving company, they can set you up better than the members of this forum can unless some of us are in the boat moving business. Be prepared to spend some bucks!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Did you have to put them as cargo because of issues with sailing them? I would expect that is a tough decision for owners. no places to refit them there? Cheaper.

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    I have shipped Anthéa on the 209 m submersible cargo ship Yacht Express in november 2015 from Fort Lauderdale to Genova.
    Absolutely no stress on the boat. The crew prepare a steel craddle which is set by divers when the boat is "docked " in the ship.
    These pics have been taken in Genova. One can see the wood stands waiting for the boats to come.
    On this trip Anthéa was the only "passenger" on the ship !
    The first pic is before the ship ballast to let the water come in.
    It's a very safe way to ship a boat. But the destinations are specific.
    The crew is very efficient.



    Last edited by Rapelapente; 10-21-2018 at 06:17 PM.
    Gerard.
    SCHOONER FOR EVER, GOELETTE A PERPETE

    http://www.goelette-anthea.fr

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions




    Ready to board and sail away

    Gerard.
    SCHOONER FOR EVER, GOELETTE A PERPETE

    http://www.goelette-anthea.fr

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    The ship fully ballasted

    Gerard.
    SCHOONER FOR EVER, GOELETTE A PERPETE

    http://www.goelette-anthea.fr

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    I'll repeat myself, maybe this time it arrives. Without any details it's impossible to give any meaningfull advice.

    A 60ish Alden will be around 14ft wide and weigh in the region of 25-30t. There are enough oversize trucking firms who have the expertize to move such an object over the road. Yes it's going to cost a pretty penny, but moving it by ship could be even more expensive. It makes sense only if there is an ocean in between. Depending on condition, size, starting and destination point there are any number of posibillities. From all road, to road/inland waterways on a barge to all ship. Then there are the options involving moving by herself, from light repairs and towing to heavy sheathing and motoring. All depends on the condition she's in, one boat you can just put on a trailer and go, another will need extensive reinforcement just to be hauled.
    Also this thing you keep stating that she's "far away from her builders". What have her original builders to do with it? If she can be hauled she can be repaired where she is, it's not like her original builders have some esoteric proprietary knowledge. You may have to organize a space and hire your own team but that might prove cheaper than transporting her.

    So please provide following info:
    How big?
    What's her general condition?
    Where is she, and is she floating or on the hard?
    Where should she be going?

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    This reminds me of that thread from about five years ago; Schooners R Us

    Why is it always schooners?

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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    I sailed and raced, single handed a bit in the 60's out of Torrance/Hermosa Ca. but when I went with some friends on a 45' schooner, I was hooked. It's the "us" that I like, plus the incredible history goes so far back. Schooners were the boat of choice, because they were so powerful, and could be sailed with a very small crew. plus, I kinda liked sailing on my bottom instead on the beams so much. They looked the part. Captains Courageous and Barnacle Bill and others, choose schooners because ...well ...They are beautiful. Nothing against other sailing yachts, but I was hooked. There have been so many built in the 40' to 70' range and even at 100 years old still retain their grace, and still win races. They must have got something right to be in the MIT museum.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooligan navy View Post
    Did you have to put them as cargo because of issues with sailing them? I would expect that is a tough decision for owners. no places to refit them there? Cheaper.
    These were new boats that were built in the Orient. They were delivered to Hugh Angleman's and Charley Davie's agents here, in the U.S. They were then prepped and placed on display for sale by the brokerage at Newport Harbor Yacht Landing.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 10-22-2018 at 12:40 PM.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    This looks to be a very gentle way to treat a 90 year young lady. Thank you for sharing your information.

  31. #31
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    Default

    90 yrs??? no way the keel timber, bow & stern aren't worm & rot ridden and about 50 yrs overdue major restructuring!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Here's a real schooner that really exists and seems to be loved by real people! https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...5&share_type=t
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapelapente View Post
    The ship fully ballasted



    If you want to move an old schooner long distances without actually sailing it, this is the way to do it. Not cheap.


    ......

    If you didn't notice, the members of this forum will generally not get behind undefined day dreams. Many dreamers come, some even sink large amount of money into projects, very few ever succeed.

    If you want this endeavor to work, you need to be very clear on the exact vessel, the plan, and the end goal. And then show/prove how you are going to get there. Not show/prove to us, but the person/organization that is bank rolling the project. Veterans programs are great. There are many worthy vessels that deteriorate more every day. But there are many more than can actually be saved. If you want this to work, then you need to share details, get folks excited, and then get serious about planning and organization. Founding a proper non-profit is an important step.

    Truthfully, none of us wants to see these wonderful vessels meet their fate at the business end of a chainsaw, but we've seen it happen too many times.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    "We've seen it to many times". If you were to document this story of abuse and distruction of these fine vessels ( and it is abuse, lack of proper maintenance, and downright lazy attitudes that cause a good boat to go into this non sailing state) many more people would come forward to really help, because their fate is "sailing". I think it's all about a good marine survey, which means these boats are properly cradled and stored close to the master craftsmen who may or may not do their work. It's up to the owner(s) to spend the money to give the boat a fighting chance. If they don't, and leave them in the water, (for what) nobody can take a serious look. These older wooden boats need all hands on deck with some pockets full of cash. How can we sit back and let "worthy vessels" rot? I guess that's the point, I think a list of these vessels should be compiled (we do know what the worthy vessels are) and circulated among like minded yachtsmen/woman . The ball is in the court of the owner(s), and we should all show our support for the ones that come forward. There is so much "good stuff" out there every day in Wooden Boat Forums. There are so many boats out there that are worthy to their owners, but I personally think the wooden ones have a special place.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Old wooden schooner shipping questions

    Willin: (post 27)

    Was "Schooners R Us" the person who was looking to sail a schooner down (up?) the ICW but who wanted volunteer crew (unpaid) to help him do it and got incensed when the forum members pointed out that a survey was essential? We get one or two of these "save the boats" threads a year here, but the one I am thinking of got unnecessarily vituperative and he invaded at LEAST six other forae with the same querys and attitudes when we didn't bow down to his ideas and desires. (or was that the Tahiti ketch guy?) Age fogs the memory.



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