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Thread: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

  1. #1
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    Default "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Has any designer interpreted the concept of LF Herreshoff's Rozinante design in modern materials and construction?
    Today, I'd expect to see fin keel, saildrive, carbon spars maybe.

    Key features:
    drop dead gorgeous
    Comfortable cockpit for six
    easy to sail
    Modest interior for 1-2
    Relatively fast
    Last edited by JimConlin; 10-18-2018 at 07:55 PM.

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    Default

    Francois Vivier’s Pen Hir, which he drew for himself:





    Not canoe sterned, and not a yawl, but checks the other boxes in your “key features” list.



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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Pretty close and I bet Doug Hylan would design a slightly larger one for you! https://www.offcenterharbor.com/2014...loop/?prev=yes
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    Has any designer interpreted the concept of LF Herreshoff's Rozinante design in modern materials and construction?
    Today, I'd expect to see fin keel, saildrive, carbon spars maybe.

    Key features:
    drop dead gorgeous
    Comfortable cockpit for six
    easy to sail
    Modest interior for 1-2
    Relatively fast
    Twinkle, by Ben Seaborn



    Sliver, by Bob Perry.



    Red Herring, by Hubbard.


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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Bob Perry's 'Sliver' design ended up being named Francis Lee:

    http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1...er-sliver.html

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Oh, and don't forget Sparkle, designed by rocket scientists in 1947.

    Video here:

    https://www.offcenterharbor.com/vide...kle-boat-beat/


    Email This Page to a FriendPreview: Fine Boat Designs – SPARKLE, A Speedy Sloop With A Whaleboat Heritage

    March 31, 2015 Maynard Bray
    SPARKLE was built in 1947 by aeronautical engineer Alex Irving in his back yard. Alex owned and raced her in Southern California for the next 32 years, winning the prestigious Lipton Cup and countless other races. She was the "boat to beat" for many years in Southern California.
    The hull was drawn up by fellow engineer Norman Schwartz and the rig (the original one shown here) was by Ted Carpenter. Inspired by those long and lean whaleboats of New Bedford, she's just under 40' long, 8'2" wide, and draws 5'6" of water. She displaces about 12,000 lbs with nearly half of it (5,000 lbs) in her ballast keel. She sleeps four, has a small galley and head, and is altogether a snappy little sloop that's proven the boat to beat on the racecourse. In profile, she looks a bit like an enlarged Rozinante by L. Francis Herreshoff that came out a few years later.
    In 1997, Brian McGinn discovered SPARKLE languishing in San Diego, bought her, got her to Port Townsend and fixed her up enough to sail and race. She proved a winner, Guy Hupy signed on as a partner in the boat and together they rebuilt the boat, giving her a spade rudder instead of a keel-hung one, and a masthead rig to go with it. It took them two sessions and five years in all. Amidst the rebuilds, Alex Irving and his racing friends got to sail her again in 2007—on the boats 50th anniversary and for the first time since 1979.
    SPARKLE is as good an example of successful do-it-yourselfing as you're apt to find—an inspiration for all of us!
    SPARKLE'S original sailplan as shown in the May, 1951 issue of Yachting

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    Last edited by johnw; 10-18-2018 at 08:48 PM.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    I fondly remember Red Herring in Marion.


    Moxie, another favorite, was moored nearby.

    Anything 30' or less?
    Last edited by JimConlin; 10-18-2018 at 09:10 PM.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Gartside #102 at 27ft. Fin keel below a canoe hull. Strip plank. Double ender. Narrow.



    https://store.gartsideboats.com/coll...noe-design-102

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    What was wrong with the original Roz?

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Nothing!
    Jay

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Oh, and don't forget Sparkle, designed by rocket scientists in 1947.

    Video here:

    https://www.offcenterharbor.com/vide...kle-boat-beat/



    March 31, 2015 Maynard Bray
    SPARKLE was built in 1947 by aeronautical engineer Alex Irving in his back yard. Alex owned and raced her in Southern California for the next 32 years, winning the prestigious Lipton Cup and countless other races. She was the "boat to beat" for many years in Southern California.
    The hull was drawn up by fellow engineer Norman Schwartz and the rig (the original one shown here) was by Ted Carpenter. Inspired by those long and lean whaleboats of New Bedford, she's just under 40' long, 8'2" wide, and draws 5'6" of water. She displaces about 12,000 lbs with nearly half of it (5,000 lbs) in her ballast keel. She sleeps four, has a small galley and head, and is altogether a snappy little sloop that's proven the boat to beat on the racecourse. In profile, she looks a bit like an enlarged Rozinante by L. Francis Herreshoff that came out a few years later.
    In 1997, Brian McGinn discovered SPARKLE languishing in San Diego, bought her, got her to Port Townsend and fixed her up enough to sail and race. She proved a winner, Guy Hupy signed on as a partner in the boat and together they rebuilt the boat, giving her a spade rudder instead of a keel-hung one, and a masthead rig to go with it. It took them two sessions and five years in all. Amidst the rebuilds, Alex Irving and his racing friends got to sail her again in 2007—on the boats 50th anniversary and for the first time since 1979.
    SPARKLE is as good an example of successful do-it-yourselfing as you're apt to find—an inspiration for all of us!
    SPARKLE'S original sailplan as shown in the May, 1951 issue of Yachting


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    My first thought was Sparkle. Having lost to her a few times, I can attest that she fits the OP's criteria to a T.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    My first thought was Sparkle. Having lost to her a few times, I can attest that she fits the OP's criteria to a T.
    She's pretty brilliant. Scott Rohrer told me the R boats are faster to windward, Sparkle is faster off the wind, so they're pretty evenly matched on a triangular course. Both are faster than a 6 meter.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    The Yankee One Design is similar, and arguably a better boat.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    The Yankee One Design is similar, and arguably a better boat.
    It's not double ended. Mine was certainly a lot faster than a Rozinante, I raced against them on several occasions, but it had a different purpose. I did know someone who cruised the San Juan Islands in a Yankee with sweeps, though.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    Has any designer interpreted the concept of LF Herreshoff's Rozinante design in modern materials and construction?
    Today, I'd expect to see fin keel, saildrive, carbon spars maybe.

    Key features:
    drop dead gorgeous
    Comfortable cockpit for six
    easy to sail
    Modest interior for 1-2
    Relatively fast
    If I recall correctly, LFH himelf drew a version of Rozinante with a fin keel and spade rudder. Longitudinal construction would have been something he would have been comfortable with also.
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    If I recall correctly, LFH himelf drew a version of Rozinante with a fin keel and spade rudder. Longitudinal construction would have been something he would have been comfortable with also.
    LFH design #96 Gjoa had a spade rudder and is longitudinally framed. It's fatter than Rozinante.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    LFH design #96 Gjoa had a spade rudder and is longitudinally framed. It's fatter than Rozinante.
    Doug Hylan built a yawl version of Rozinante called Red Head. Then a subsequent version that had more beam as well. Both good boats.
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

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    Default

    This Redhead?






    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    LFH design #96 Gjoa had a spade rudder and is longitudinally framed. It's fatter than Rozinante.
    It also has an engine...
    And I can say for certain that rowing a Rosanante in Penobscot bay against a head tide is a futile experience. Even with two people rowing you will not get back to the mooring until the tide changes or the evening breeze settles in.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Which is faster, a Rozinante towing a dinghy or a Rosinante towing an out board prop in the water?
    Jay

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    What provoked the question in me is my experience with my Alerion Express 28, a modern interpretation of NGH's Alerion. I judge the design to be successful, both aesthetically and functionally. Please, no whining about materials.
    It seemed to me that a similar modern interpretion of Rozinante could be a good boat.
    At 75, I'm thinking that I might have one more boat project in me and I'm fishing for ideas. A 27' decked strip canoe with a lead fin on the bottom, a small diesel with saildrive and some carbon sticks in the air might be do-able. I'd rather not have to dig the Westlawn books from the attic.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    That's this, Joel White's Fox Island class.:

    I'd admired that design (and his Sakonnet 23, aka Lala) for years.

    That's very much in the ballpark, Dave.
    I wonder if I could scavenge rig and keel from a J/something.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Lots of great suggestions already. Paul Kotzebue had a series of double-enders, one of which might fit the bill. His web presence seems to be non-existent these days. Stephens-Waring's "Tendress" is a bit bigger (1450 lbs/22% more displacement). Quite nice looking though - https://stephenswaring.com/yachts/tendress/

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    I built two Rozinantes when I worked for Carl Chapman boat works in S. CA. They were easy hulls to plank. The yard owner thought that the scantlings were too light so he took it on himself to beef up the forefoot timber and floor sidings and increase the molded and sided dimensions of the frames. This made the owner furious as he wanted the boat built as drawn. It made LFH mad as well and a letter arrived to say so. The owner also sent a letter stating that if any more changes were made from the plans he would cancel the contract. That anger was sparked by the fact that we put wiring in the masts for nav. and spreader lights. Fortunatly I was just doing what I was told to do or I would have been chewed out as well. After launching of the first boat, a couple of the frames cracked and had to be replaced. That was caused by imbalance of the scantlings caused by Chappy. Had things not been changed all would have been in ballance. Herreshoff designs take into consideration that a wooden boat moves and twists when at sea. The entire design is orchestrated to take this factor into harmony. Changing one thing in a Herreshoff design throws the entire structure out of balance. So now, you members of our group can see how differences of opinion over LFH's designs existed even back in the nineteen fifties. LOL!
    Here is an interior shot of one of the Rosinantes seen under sail above. That radio is sitting on a Fatsco stove. Snug cabin!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 10-20-2018 at 07:21 PM.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    T I wonder if I could scavenge rig and keel from a J/something.
    Or a keel and rudder/skeg from an old 210? Or even alter a 210 (29') for light cruising? https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/197...ailer-3071990/
    Last edited by rbgarr; 10-20-2018 at 04:37 PM.
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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    That's lovely, Jay. I have much more modest skills and ambitions.

    I think it was about the H28 that LFH wrote:
    "If her design is only slightly changed, the whole balance may be thrown out. If you equip her with deadeyes or fill her virgin bilge with ballast, the birds will no longer carol over her, nor will the odors arising from the cabin make poetry, and your soul will no longer be fortified against a world of politicians and fakers."

    'Tis true. You hope for balance in a built object like a boat between grace, weight, strength, etc. and when there isn't harmony, it's unfortunate.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    At 75, I'm thinking that I might have one more boat project in me and I'm fishing for ideas. A 27' decked strip canoe with a lead fin on the bottom, a small diesel with saildrive and some carbon sticks in the air might be do-able. I'd rather not have to dig the Westlawn books from the attic.
    Perhaps Bolger's version - Burgundy? He meant it to be relatively quick and easy to build (and outfit), no Westlawn needed. A crude variety of strip building, I think. Carbon masts and a saildrive would not be amiss.

    More: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/hallman/tags/burgundy/

    Dave
    Last edited by DGentry; 10-20-2018 at 06:35 PM.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Phil Bolger is one of my favorites! He was capable of designing a sweet hull such as "Spur" or an abrupt variation of what one sees as proper and one becomes outraged by the flagrant nose thumbing at the mundane and expectance as to what is proper. What he did was austounding! His micro cruiser is both outlandish and practical! Some of his boats may have been unusual to the aye of tradition but all of his boats worked. His "Jacknife" is one of my favorite schooners! It is practical, space saving and does more for a sheet of plywood than most designers do in a lifetime!
    Jay

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    That's lovely, Jay. I have much more modest skills and ambitions.

    I think it was about the H28 that LFH wrote:
    "If her design is only slightly changed, the whole balance may be thrown out. If you equip her with deadeyes or fill her virgin bilge with ballast, the birds will no longer carol over her, nor will the odors arising from the cabin make poetry, and your soul will no longer be fortified against a world of politicians and fakers."

    'Tis true. You hope for balance in a built object like a boat between grace, weight, strength, etc. and when there isn't harmony, it's unfortunate.
    Yes Jim, I should think that the most appealing thing that can be said of a Herreshoff design is that one can find no nonsense in the works of either L.Francis Herreshoff or his father Nathanial Green Herreshoff!
    Jay

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    I’d forgotten Arion and Walter Greene. It’s a great story.




    Arion was designed by Sidney DeWolfe Herreshoff and built in 1950, two years before Rozinante was published in The Rudder. It was the first fiberglass sailing auxiliary. In the early sixties, it was in the fleet at the Coast Guard Academy. I was there for college sailing, saw it and fell in love.
    Years later, Damian McLaughlin found Arion’s hull in a field and rebuilt it.
    Walter Greene is closely based on Arion and was built by McLaughlin in wood composite. The naval architect was Matt Smith. His website has good versions of these drawings.


    This just what I had in mind, except for size. Ironic that the design predates Rozinante.
    Last edited by JimConlin; 10-23-2018 at 10:26 PM.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    I went aboard Arion in Damian's yard one year. She had a drag link tiller to rudder connection (the tiller is in the center cockpit well forward of the aft spade rudder). It makes for slightly sloppy steering with a lack of 'feel'. But she was a neat boat! Narrow as hell and a very low coach roof made for hunched over creeping around down below.
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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Which is faster, a Rozinante towing a dinghy or a Rosinante towing an out board prop in the water?
    Jay
    In answer to the question as to which boat won, the leeward Rozinante towing the dinghy sailed thrugh the lee of the windward boat that was dragging an outboard prop and won over her. Note that the dinghy is being towed off of the quarter of the Rozinante and just up on the quarter wave which offers the least resistance when towing a tender.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    I went aboard Arion in Damian's yard one year. She had a drag link tiller to rudder connection (the tiller is in the center cockpit well forward of the aft spade rudder). It makes for slightly sloppy steering with a lack of 'feel'. But she was a neat boat! Narrow as hell and a very low coach roof made for hunched over creeping around down below.
    Damfino's steering is also remote. I used yokes and amsteel strings. Works fine.

    I'm just thinking about scaling the concept down to Rozinante daysailer size, 27-30 ft. Headroom is overrated.
    I'm at the idle planning stage. I already have projects for this winter. If I came across an appropriate rig or a J/27 keel (~1500#) or a J/29 keel (~2000#) for short money, that would focus things.

    Then there's the negotiation with SWMBO about growing the shop a bit.

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    Default Re: "Spirit of Tradition" Rozinante?

    Tiffany Jane?

    https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/tiffany-jane-34

    Or perhaps the 410:



    The 410 “Nor’wester” Specifications:
    LOA: 35’10 7/8″
    LWL: 28’3″
    Beam: 6’10 3/4″
    Draft: 5’9″
    Ballast:
    Displacement:
    Designed: C. Raymond Hunt
    Built By: Marblehead Yacht Yard
    Year Designed:
    Year Built: 1947
    Sail Area: 482 sq ft
    Hull material: “Harborite” Plywood Construction
    Original Owner: Ray Hunt
    Original Name: Et Toi
    Sail Plan: Main, Jib, Spin
    Spinnaker: Conventional
    Upwind sail area: sq ft
    Spinnaker sail area:
    Crew:


    http://classicsailboats.org/c-raymon...-410-510-1010/

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