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Thread: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

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    Default Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Reported by NYT this morning. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/w...gtype=Homepage

    ANKARA, Turkey — A Turkish newspaper close to the government has published a list of 15 men it says formed a hit squad of Saudi government agents the Turks suspect of killing and dismembering a prominent critic inside the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.

    While Turkey has not leveled the charges publicly, two Turkish officials speaking on the condition of anonymity confirmed that the government considers the men to be Saudi operatives who flew last week to Istanbul in pursuit of Jamal Khashoggi, the dissident. Mr. Khashoggi has not been seen since he entered the consulate on Oct. 2.

    One of the men on the list published by the newspaper, Sabah, is an autopsy expert at Saudi Arabia’s internal security agency, according to the two Turkish officials. Another appears to be a lieutenant in the Royal Saudi Air Force. The officials, citing confidential intelligence, said all worked for the Saudi government.
    Turkish officials have said that Mr. Khashoggi was killed at the consulate and that his dismembered body was taken away — an allegation the Saudi government has vehemently denied. Mr. Khashoggi, a veteran Saudi commentator, United States resident and Washington Post columnist, had become a prominent critic of the kingdom’s rulers.

    Saudi leaders, including Prince Mohammed bin Salman himself, have said that Mr. Khashoggi left the consulate freely, shortly after he entered, and that they have no knowledge of his fate. Turkish officials have cited confidential intelligence to support their contention that Mr. Khashoggi is dead, but have declined to disclose that evidence.
    In recent days, anonymous Turkish officials have leaked a steady stream of details about the alleged killing. They say they believe the operation was ordered by the highest levels of the Saudi court in part because of its scale and complexity.

    The Saudis have yet to produce video footage or other evidence supporting their contention that Mr. Khashoggi left the building. Turkish officials have said, without offering evidence, that Mr. Khashoggi was killed within two hours of entering the consulate and dismembered with a bone saw brought for that purpose. Although the Turkish allegations about Mr. Khashoggi’s killing have so far relied largely on confidential intelligence, Western intelligence agencies have generally regarded their Turkish counterparts as reliable on domestic matters.

    “The Turkish services are extremely capable, especially with regards to internal threats or incidents,” said Thad Troy, a senior executive of the business intelligence firm the Crumpton Group and a former senior C.I.A. officer with experience in Turkey.


    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 10-11-2018 at 08:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    bit of an irresponsible headline there, no?
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    bit of an irresponsible headline there, no?
    Not really in a world where our own leaders loudly declare war on journalists and are allies with monsters.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    In a related story also in New York Times this morning.

    WASHINGTON — For President Trump, who has made Saudi Arabia the fulcrum of his Middle East policy, the possible murder of a Saudi journalist in Turkey is a looming diplomatic crisis. For Mr. Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, it is a personal reckoning.
    More than anyone in the Trump administration, Mr. Kushner has cultivated Saudi Arabia’s crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman — whose family may have played a role in the disappearance of the journalist, Jamal Khashoggi — elevating the prince into a key ally in the Arab world and the White House’s primary interlocutor to the kingdom.

    Mr. Kushner championed Prince Mohammed, 33, when the prince was jockeying to be his father’s heir; had dinner with him in Washington and Riyadh, the Saudi capital; promoted a $110 billion weapons sale to his military; and once even hoped that the future king would put a Saudi stamp of approval on his Israeli-Palestinian peace plan.

    While the fate of Mr. Khashoggi, a resident of Virginia and a columnist for The Washington Post, remains unclear, allegations that he was killed on the orders of the royal court have thrown Mr. Kushner’s grand bet on Prince Mohammed into doubt.

    He may be less the risk-taking reformer the Trump family eagerly embraced than a reckless, untested ruler, who critics say has been emboldened by his ties to the Trumps to take heavy-handed actions at home and abroad.
    American intelligence agencies have collected communications intercepts of Saudi officials discussing a plan to lure Mr. Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia from his home in Virginia and then detain him, according to a former senior American official.

    The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss confidential intelligence reports, said it was inconceivable that such a plan could be carried out without the approval of the crown prince. The American intercepts were first reported by The Washington Post.
    While it is possible that such a plan involved assassinating Mr. Khashoggi, the official said, it is also possible that a plan to trick Mr. Khashoggi into returning to Saudi Arabia, or to temporarily incapacitate and kidnap him, went horribly awry and resulted in his death.
    Saudi leaders, including the prince, insist Mr. Khashoggi left the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul on his own, and they do not know what happened to him after that.

    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 10-11-2018 at 08:23 AM.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    I’ve been wondering why this has taken so long to drop on the forum. America’s biggest closest strongest most important ally in the Mid East. . .
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    I’ve been wondering why this has taken so long to drop on the forum. America’s biggest closest strongest most important ally in the Mid East. . .
    I waited too. Considering all the liberal thought that is written here and with a huge Trump connection - I wonder how many read the news.


    The Saudis have kept Turkey together by their bolstering of the Turkish economy as the Turks weather some tough economics and violent political times. For the Turkish government to confirm these 15 Saudis with full knowledge of the crown prince, heir to the throne and linch pin to Trumpian mideast politics - this is a huge deal. Photos revealed the Saudis who killed and dismembered Mr. Khashoggi are US collage educated and trained. Their identities were determined from their Facebook profiles. They got their orders to kill from the Prince himself.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Has any evidence been put forward showing the gentleman is actually deceased?

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    I haven’t heard anything solid, yet.

    Sort of like the Chinese cat.

    Who knows? Which is really the worst part, eh?

    John Who? Never heard of him. Move along.

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Has any evidence been put forward showing the gentleman is actually deceased?
    From Turkish Newspaper



    The Turks are exceptional at surveillance. If they reported the journalist was boxed up and departed with Saudis - we should take them at their word. There is little to gain for them to fabricate a journalist entering a building and having 15 known saudi killers come and go as quickly as they did with some boxes. There has been no sign of Khashoggi ever since. The journalist Khashoggi expressed fear of the saudis. It should be known Khashoggi was a moderate who was a part of the reporting of the Arab Spring. Saudis are doing clean up to rid any body who champions the cause of democratic and human rights.

    This is quite chilling to all reporters in the middle east. It also says it is open season on reporters whom the powerful authoritarians do not like.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 10-11-2018 at 09:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    I tend not to believe either side.

    Still, if Mr. Khashhoggi owed me money, I'd be concerned.

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    "The market" noticed it pretty quickly...

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    I tend not to believe either side.

    Still, if Mr. Khashhoggi owed me money, I'd be concerned.
    Nice. What was your business again?
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Washington Post: Trump says curbing arms sales to Saudi Arabia in response to missing journalist is ‘not acceptable’

    By John Wagner
    October 11 at 12:55 PM

    President Trump said Thursday that “it would not be acceptable to me” to block arms sales to Saudi Arabia in response to the disappearance last week of a Washington Post columnist after he entered the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.
    Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office, Trump said he was open to other actions but questioned the wisdom of not selling military weapons, saying Saudi Arabia could instead turn to Russia or China, hurting U.S. defense companies.
    “What good does that do us?” Trump asked.
    On his first international trip as president, Trump visited Saudi Arabia and announced $110 billion in proposed arms sales. The administration also relies on Saudi support for several aspects of its Middle East agenda.
    The Washington Post reported Wednesday night that the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman, ordered an operation to lure columnist Jamal Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia from his home in Virginia and then detain him, according to U.S. intelligence intercepts of Saudi officials discussing the plan.

    Turkish officials say that a Saudi security team lay in wait for the journalist and killed him.

    “We don’t like it, and we don’t like it even a little bit,” Trump said. “But as to whether or not we should stop $110 billion from being spent in this country, knowing they have four or five alternatives, two of them very good alternatives, that would not be acceptable to me.”

    Trump’s comments Thursday echoed arguments made in a Fox News interview on Wednesday night in which he said he wants to find out what happened to Khashoggi but expressed concerns about the economic impact of blocking arms shipments.
    “We have jobs. We have a lot of things happening in this country,” Trump said. “We have a country that’s doing probably better economically than it’s ever done before. Part of that is what we are doing with our defense systems and everybody is wanting them and frankly, I think that would be a very, very tough pill to swallow for our country.”

    In a separate Fox News interview on Thursday morning, Trump characterized the United States’s relationship with Saudi Arabia as “excellent.”

    Asked about The Post report that the crown prince ordered an operation to lure Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia, Trump said: “Well, it would be a very sad thing, and we would probably know in the very short future.”
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 10-11-2018 at 12:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    As if Russia’s allies in the region would tolerate the former SU selling the Saudis weapons. Trump, the smartest man in the world seems to have forgotten who’s who in the ME’s proxy wars.

    I’m going with killed and cut into convenient to carry portions in the Saudi embassy.
    Last edited by Lew Barrett; 10-11-2018 at 12:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Washington Post: Trump says curbing arms sales to Saudi Arabia in response to missing journalist is ‘not acceptable’

    By John Wagner
    October 11 at 12:55 PM

    President Trump said Thursday that “it would not be acceptable to me” to block arms sales to Saudi Arabia in response to the disappearance last week of a Washington Post columnist after he entered the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.
    Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office, Trump said he was open to other actions but questioned the wisdom of not selling military weapons, saying Saudi Arabia could instead turn to Russia or China, hurting U.S. defense companies.
    “What good does that do us?” Trump asked.
    On his first international trip as president, Trump visited Saudi Arabia and announced $110 billion in proposed arms sales. The administration also relies on Saudi support for several aspects of its Middle East agenda.
    The Washington Post reported Wednesday night that the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman, ordered an operation to lure columnist Jamal Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia from his home in Virginia and then detain him, according to U.S. intelligence intercepts of Saudi officials discussing the plan.

    Turkish officials say that a Saudi security team lay in wait for the journalist and killed him.

    “We don’t like it, and we don’t like it even a little bit,” Trump said. “But as to whether or not we should stop $110 billion from being spent in this country, knowing they have four or five alternatives, two of them very good alternatives, that would not be acceptable to me.”

    Trump’s comments Thursday echoed arguments made in a Fox News interview on Wednesday night in which he said he wants to find out what happened to Khashoggi but expressed concerns about the economic impact of blocking arms shipments.
    “We have jobs. We have a lot of things happening in this country,” Trump said. “We have a country that’s doing probably better economically than it’s ever done before. Part of that is what we are doing with our defense systems and everybody is wanting them and frankly, I think that would be a very, very tough pill to swallow for our country.”

    In a separate Fox News interview on Thursday morning, Trump characterized the United States’s relationship with Saudi Arabia as “excellent.”

    Asked about The Post report that the crown prince ordered an operation to lure Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia, Trump said: “Well, it would be a very sad thing, and we would probably know in the very short future.”
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    You are known by the company you keep.
    as reported by 3/18/2018 http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/243521
    JTA - Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman may be using his close relationship with White House adviser Jared Kushner to send a message to his allies and enemies that his actions were backed by the U.S. government, a U.S. government official told The Intercept.

    Kushner, who is the son-in-law of President Donald Trump, and the crown prince had a late October meeting in Riyadh.


    A week later, Mohammed began what he called an “anti-corruption crackdown.” The Saudi government arrested and jailed dozens of members of the Saudi royal family in a Riyadh hotel – among them Saudi figures named in a daily classified brief read by the president and his closest advisers that Kushner read avidly before he lost his top-secret security clearance in February, The Intercept reported Thursday.

    According to the report, Mohammed told confidants that he and Kushner discussed Saudis identified in the classified brief as disloyal to Mohammed. While it is likely that Prince Mohammed could independently learn who were his critics, he may have wanted to let it be known that Kushner shared that information with him in order to show his close relationship with the United States, the unnamed U.S. official said.

    If Kushner discussed the names with the Saudi prince without presidential authorization, he may have violated federal laws around the sharing of classified intelligence, according to the Intercept.

    The Saudi crown prince bragged to the United Arab Emirates Crown Prince Mohammed bin Zayed and others that he had Kushner “in his pocket,” an unnamed source who talks frequently to confidants of the Saudi and Emirati rulers told The Intercept.

    The online publication cited a senior Western official and a source close to the Saudi royal family that Kushner has communicated directly with both the Saudi and Emirati crown princes on WhatsApp, a popular messaging app owned by Facebook. Kushner’s attorneys have since told him not to use the app for official business, according to The Intercept, citing a source with direct knowledge of the exchange between Kushner and his legal team.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Where is the evidence for "dismembered"?

    You could butcher a corps an feed it through a garbage disposal unit with less fuss.

    Or feed it to a couple of pigs.

    Of course it is possible that the Saudi Embassy has no pigs.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Vanity Fair reporting on Jared and the Saudis this week....

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018...i-saudi-arabia

    In an administration that provides fresh horror on a daily basis, one of the most alarming aspects of Donald Trump’s presidency is his penchant for casting off decades-long relationships with democratic allies and cozying up to autocrats in their place. While Vladimir Putin will always have a special place in Trump’s heart, another clear favorite is Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who ingratiated himself with the ex–real estate developer by agreeing to a multi-billion-dollar arms deal that allowed Trump to maintain the illusion of being a successful businessman. In exchange, the president of the United States has basically cheered on the prince’s human-rights abuses. Last November, with the tacit support of the president, M.B.S., as he is known, rounded up 200 businessmen, Saudi officials, and family members as part of a crackdown on alleged corruption, and detained them for months at the Riyadh Ritz-Carlton—a move Trump publicly endorsed. In August, Team Trump essentially gave Saudi Arabia its blessing to expel Canada’s ambassador, ban new trade, freeze Saudi Airlines flights to Canada, and order the withdrawal of more than 12,000 Saudi citizens studying in Canada, after our neighbors to the north mildly condemned the arrests of several political activists, and called for their release. But a recent incident—wherein Saudi Arabia may have kidnapped and murdered a journalist who has been critical of the regime—could make it tough for Trump to look the other way. Though lord knows he’s trying!
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 10-11-2018 at 03:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Ted, I think you need evidence to justify the thread title.

    If events transpired as alleged, there will be evidence.

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Ted, I think you need evidence to justify the thread title.

    If events transpired as alleged, there will be evidence.
    according to the Guardian - https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...y-saudi-arabia

    Turkish authorities are examining motorway cameras in the search for a black van they believe carried the body of Jamal Khashoggi from the Saudi consulate in Istanbul last week – one of six cars investigators say belonged to a Saudi hit squad thought to be behind the suspected murder of the dissident journalist.
    Officials say the convoy left the consulate around two hours after Khashoggi entered. Security camera footage shows boxes being loaded into the van, which carried diplomatic number plates. After leaving the consulate grounds, three cars turned left on to a main road while the remaining three turned right. Investigators say one of the vehicles, a van with blacked out windows, has become the focus of the investigation, and was briefly tracked to a nearby motorway.

    ————

    Khashoggi was last seen wearing an Apple smart watch - the watch could indicate his last minutes as well as his current physical whereabouts.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Ted, I think you need evidence to justify the thread title.

    If events transpired as alleged, there will be evidence.
    Well he is either dead and disposed of or imprisoned. When you consider the options available to the consulate staff in the future should he be imprisoned you have to ask the "What is more likely" question.

    Consulates are "Home Soil" so if the Saudis do not want anyone to see any evidence, evidence will not be seen.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Oh, I am probably as certain as Ted is as to what has occurred. Still, we cannot dispense with the requirement of evidence. Nor do I trust the reporting of for profit media without some form of substantive corroboration.

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Oh, I am probably as certain as Ted is as to what has occurred. Still, we cannot dispense with the requirement of evidence. Nor do I trust the reporting of for profit media without some form of substantive corroboration.
    We are not relying on the US media here.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Oh, I am probably as certain as Ted is as to what has occurred. Still, we cannot dispense with the requirement of evidence. Nor do I trust the reporting of for profit media without some form of substantive corroboration.
    I respect your skepticism but considering the facts as they lay. We are forced right now to go with the Occum’s razor explication.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 10-11-2018 at 05:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Seems the Turks have forensic evidence from the sewers that come from the Saudi Consulate as well as audio and video evidence of the murder. Possibly from Khashoggi’s Apple Watch.

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics...t-of-interest/

    Trump’s meek response to the diplomatic crisis highlights the ongoing conflicts of interest posed by his business empire.

    At a 2015 campaign stop, Trump bragged to the crowd about his business dealings with the Saudis. “Saudi Arabia, I get along with all of them,” Trump said. “They buy apartments from me. They spend $40 million, $50 million. Am I supposed to dislike them? I like them very much.”


    https://www.businessinsider.com/jare...aud-uae-2018-5

    A real estate startup partly-owned by presidential senior adviser Jared Kushner is seeking an investment of at least $100 million from a private fund backed by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

    Sources familiar with the plans told Bloomberg a senior executive at Cadre, which was co-founded by Kushner, recently met with representatives of SoftBank Vision Fund, a Japanese conglomerate which receives much of its funding from the Saudi and UAE governments.

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Doesn't matter. No Western nation, no nation on earth would have done anything, will do anything about it, even if true. The absence of business ties would not change this. It's Realpolitik.

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    https://www.motherjones.com/politics...t-of-interest/

    Trump’s meek response to the diplomatic crisis highlights the ongoing conflicts of interest posed by his business empire.

    At a 2015 campaign stop, Trump bragged to the crowd about his business dealings with the Saudis. “Saudi Arabia, I get along with all of them,” Trump said. “They buy apartments from me. They spend $40 million, $50 million. Am I supposed to dislike them? I like them very much.”


    https://www.businessinsider.com/jare...aud-uae-2018-5

    A real estate startup partly-owned by presidential senior adviser Jared Kushner is seeking an investment of at least $100 million from a private fund backed by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

    Sources familiar with the plans told Bloomberg a senior executive at Cadre, which was co-founded by Kushner, recently met with representatives of SoftBank Vision Fund, a Japanese conglomerate which receives much of its funding from the Saudi and UAE governments.
    this crisis may be Trumps undoing here. He may chose to ignore the heat that the senate will be forced to bring on the Saudi holdings. No foreign policy and Jared will go into hiding. There is no cover except what the house republicans give him right at the edge of the election.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Our government knew the Saudis were going to take Khashoggi from intercepted Saudi communications. Then did nothing.

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Link? I haven’t seen that.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    Our government knew the Saudis were going to take Khashoggi from intercepted Saudi communications. Then did nothing.
    Thank you Steven for picking it up. We all should take note of this. Our basic protections as journalists, citizens and legal residents we would expect from our nation is eroding. It is why we need to be outraged beyond what evil the Saudiis have continued to do.
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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Link? I haven’t seen that.


    https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...ed-to-stop-it/

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    Default Re: Saudis kill and dismember journalist in consulate in Istanbul

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Doesn't matter. No Western nation, no nation on earth would have done anything, will do anything about it, even if true. The absence of business ties would not change this. It's Realpolitik.
    We're talking about a country that will happily stone women to death. You think they would baulk at killing and dismembering a journalist?
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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