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Thread: Sooty Tern No. 93

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Goodbye Page 1, Hello Page 2.

    This post, amongst other things, sees the return of my ‘HTML Scratchpad’ PLAIN TEXT file, renamed ‘BB-Code Scratchpad’, my default defence against web browsers and forums as a general class, which latter seem to delight in logging me out before I’ve had a chance to finish crossing all my Is and dotting all my Ts. The former either like reloading the page in Safari’s case - because it is too braindead to cope with the latest HTML 5/JavaScript/PhP-ect. coding - ofr crashing, in the case of Firefox. Which sees me very happily using the ‘Safari Technology Preview’ ongoing beta-version of Safari which is like night and day, the difference is so marked.



    I had forgotten about the propensity of this and other Forums to do the dirty while readying a post, and I got a salutary and sobering reminder of that this evening when the WBF gobbled an entire post when I went to post it - and I had also forgotten to ‘save’ it by copying it to the clipboard.In the case of a log-out, ‘Restore Auto Save’, of course, doesn’t work… It also means using the inestimable and incomparable Nisus word processor, which has plaint text files accessible as the second ‘File’ menu item. ‘GEdit’ isn’t working because of a library issue in the UNIX/X-Windows side of things, and an update fixing it hasn’t been forthcoming yet. I have to do a bit of tweaking to this new method, as there are some formatting problems such as overly large images to sort out.


    Once I’ve written the post, I copy the whole thing and drip it into the editor of whichever forum I’m posting to, do a final proof-check and formatting pass, and post. It works a treat, usually.


    So, now I need to have a little think about what I wrote previously and try and recall it from memory.


    The day got off to a good start, but the failed post was pretty well symptomatic of how it ended.


    Anyway, there were three snaps of my dust-extractor (happily, the captions are all saved up on Flickr: I have to be thankful for small mercies), followed by three snaps of...anyway, I’m getting ahead of myself.


    1. Readying the dust extractor for transport, steps 1, 2 & 3...
    Step1: remove bags and hanger;
    Step 2: extract the machine from its storage niche;
    Step 3, undo motor/fan housing assembly bolts...Aaaaargh! ALL the sockets and spanners are all at WF. Flamin' IDIOT!


    Readying the dust extractor for transport, steps 1, 2 & 3 by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    2. Motor/fan housing removed from dust extractor. I found a sole remaining spanner: 10 mm and exactly what I needed to undo the eight dust chute to fan/motor housing bolts! A quick rummage around in a drawer found an overlooked 15 mm AF flat spanner that came with either the Carbatec table saw or the extractor itself, so with the aid of my small pair of vice grips, I was able to undo the two remaining retaining bolts - and voilà! Note that I went looking after seeing the 19 mm AF flat spanners lying waiting their chance (for dissassembly) on the table saw top.


    Motor/fan housing removed from dust extractor by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    3. Cast-iron dust extractor fan/flywheel - no wonder the thing is so jolly heavy! I put the eight fastening bolts back in their holes along with the rubber gasket, for transport. It is obvious from this snap that this device has never been used; I think that I only turned it on once to test it - and that only a few months ago.



    Cast-iron dust extractor fan by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    I popped down to the lock-up this morning and fished out the 24-1/8”-wide roll of 80 gsm draughting printer paper - this has been used in more recent times for the Skyfarer fuselage and a wing for a 1:4/5 scale P-40E radio-controlled model, which is why I thought of it for the (paper) mould patterns. This worked as well as expected, being much easier to handle, and also speeding up the process a bit as well as allowing for a little more accuracy. Things went swimmingly, in fact - so much so that when things went...but I am getting ahead of myself.



    4. Here’s the first ‘new’ pattern - 3rd overall completed as a direct comparison of Stations 1 & 7, the latter on the moulds plans sheet. There’s a bit of distance between the outer edges: I will probably nest No. 7 inside No. 4. Four more templates to go, but the 80 gsm paper is working well. Templates for Nos. 2, 3, 6 and 7 remain...


    Direct comparison of Stations 1 7 7 by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    5. Off-cut glued on the bottom of the roll paper to make up shortfall. Waste not, want not - something that Australian Standards don’t seem to have heard of - but I digress...


    Off-cut glued on the bottom of the roll paper to make up shortfall by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    6. Paper pattern for Moulds No. 3, placed within the No. 4 outline on the plywood sheet, centrelines (more or less) lined up, for comparison.


    Paper pattern for Mould No. 3 complete by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    WARNING: My next post contains a totally intemperate RANT about Australian Standard’s Declaration of Independence on Sheet Size (TM ).
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-17-2018 at 05:42 PM. Reason: Shrinking the rather-too-large images back to normal

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    WARNING: This post contains a totally intemperate RANT about Australian Standard’s Declaration of Independence on Sheet Size (TM ).

    I got the next four patterns done very expeditiously, and was done by afternoon tea time. That was when things - but I anm getting ahead of myself again.

    1. Paper patterns for Moulds Nos. 2 and 3, on No. 4 outline on the plywood sheet, centrelines more or less lined up


    Paper patterns for Moulds Nos. 2 and 3, on No. 4 outline by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    2. Mould patterns for Stations 2, 6 & 3, front to back. Lined up on the Mould No. 4 and each other's centrelines, rather than against the edge of the board


    Mould patterns for Stations 2, 6 & 3. top to bottom by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    3. All seven mould patterns - there is a specific order here. No. 7 nests in No. 4, bottom left of snap, first sheet of plywood; No. 1 nests in No. 5, top right of snap, on the second sheet. This is at the practicable limit of what can be practicably nested - in my opinionated opinion. Nos. 2 and 6 will fit on the third sheet, but No. 3 will need another sheet all to itself. WARNING: RANT AHEAD! Had it not been for the accursèd Australian Standard of 1200 x 2400, the extra 20 mm sheet height and/or 40 mm sheet length of the International Standard of 1220 x 1440 would have avoided the necessity of a fourth sheet, which I am going to have to jump through hoops to transport: the other three were delivery at the princely sum of $45.00 - about 9 kilometres (5-1/2miles), and I'm not pay8ing that for one sheet. So, another $50.00 for the plywood plus fuel costs and time. Thanks, Australian Plywood Standard, you’ve helped yet another Orstilian wooden boat builder bang their sorry head against a wall (I'm not the first by any means) - I’m sure you’re pleased with yourself. Bah humbug.


    All seven mould patterns - there is a specific order here by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    4. Pattern layout seen from the other end of the plywood sheet: note that there are multiple plywood sheet layouts conflated here (four, in fact - there should have been three, see above).


    Pattern layout seen from the other end of the plywood sheet by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    5. Mould No. 3 will be on its own on a fourth plywood sheet. I am going to have plenty of plywood left over to make as many finger clamps as my heart desires, and then some. Probably more fingers clamps than you could poke a stick at, in fact.


    Mould No. 3 will be on its own on a *fourth* plywood sheet by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    So, I am now trying to work out the logistics of obtaining the fourth piece of plywood. The sheet-size (smaller though it is than everywhere else in the world) is rather too large for my roof racks to support stably. I could possibly get the plywood people to cut the sheet at a particular point laterally (depending on the full width of Station 3), at the cost of $10 or thereabouts for the cut. I will do some more moving about tomorrow, to see if there is a permutation that I’ve missed that will bring things back down to three sheets. Spreading the three plywood sheets out will help a bit, I suspect.

    At least I've got the image size a bit more manageable again - I'll fix up post no. 36 in due course. Note: fixed.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-17-2018 at 05:21 PM. Reason: Formatting, caption addition, and the removal of extraneous forum-generated emoticon
    You can never have too many clamps

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    You don’t need the moulds to be all one piece, amigo. The only part that matters is the edge. The middle can be totally hollowed out, and just tacked together with whatever random framing lumber is necessary to hold it together. This is how you do it when you build station moulds out of timber.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Thanks, James! I had been doing some moving about of plywood and patterns this morning, see below for the results, which will be followed by some comments weighing your advice with what I found in my morning's conniptions.

    So, Mr Oughtred, of course, specifies 2440 x 1220, but in my usual Happy and Blind State of Wishful Thinking, I had decided that I would risk it, and there would be enough room for a jigsaw blade at the tightest. Well, who's laughing now, eh, Mr Silly?

    My preferred general plywood supplier was Mr Ply&Wood, but the only 2440 x 1220 plywood that they appear to have is the 3.6 mm 3-ply meranti that I got for the planking templates. It turns out that the hardware crowd that I avoid at all costs because of their vicious business practices does in fact have 2440 x 1220 x 12, but in AA grade and over twice the price of the CD grade 1200 x 2400 that I have in hand (then again, the AA grade would probably be less likely to have cupped than the the different-sided CD grade, so that'll serve me right - again...). It just goes to reinforce my saying that there is not such thing as a cheap tool - I need an additional "there is no such thing as a cheap material" saying, too.

    Well, today, I got out into the shed earlier than usual:

    1. Three 12 mm plywood sheets laid out separately. At least once the table saw and dust extractor are carted off, I will have a bit more room to not trip over things. Apologies for the rather drunken angle of the snap - I was as sober as a judge, honest, guv...


    Three 12 mm plywood sheets laid out separately by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    2. Seven mould patterns on three plywood sheets. From front left to right, then back: Moulds 6 and 3; moulds 5/1 and 2; moulds 4/7. There is about a 5 mm gap 'twixt 5 and 2 - plenty of room for a jigsaw under steady guidance - or a fence. There isn't a gap between 3 and 6 at their nearest points, however, which is a problem. (snap is slightly straigther)


    Seven mould patterns on three plywood sheets by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    3. Just enough room for a jigsaw blade between patterns 5 and 2. This assumes that the patterns haven't shifted in the wrong directions after placement (way from each other) and that the outlines are accurate. These are two very big assumptions


    Just enough room for a jigsaw blade between patterns 5 and 2 by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    4. Mould 3 and 6 patterns separated to show overlap. The dotted line is outside the edge of No. 3 pattern. The patterns need a separation of at least 3 mm between their closest points looking at this - and allowing for blade kerf and pattern/placement error (see previous snap's 'description' block). One solution to this - apart from buying a whole new sheet of plywood to correct this tiny overlap - is to move one of the patterns off the board slightly at the bottom edge (or both, thereby 'halving' the amount moved), and making ABSOLUTELY SURE that the missing amount is accounted for when attaching the spreader(s). This should mean, therefore, a gap of possibly 5 mm (maximum) between the bottom edge of the spreader(s) and the bottom edge of the mould(s).


    Mould 3 and 6 patterns separated to show overlap by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    5. Gap between mould patterns nos. 3 and 6, no. 3 (on right) 5 mm off plywood sheet. This would be sufficient to insinuate a careful jigsaw blade through. The piece of mould hanging off the sheet has only the verticals of the mould outer edges, so no critucal information is lost there. The missing 5 mm of mould bottom-edge can be made up by gluing as well as screwing the spreader to the plywood - at the right height, of course. This is going to need exceedingly accurate work all through the entire process for this to work, though...


    Gap between mould patterns nos. 3 and 6, no. 3 (on right) 5 mm off sheet by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    6. Bottom edge of Mould No. 3 pattern 5 mm off sheet edge - checked with straight-edge, just to 'prove' that there is a 5 mm overhang with the No. 3 pattern removed relative to No. 6. It does no such thing of course, since it's just a snap of a straightedge and some paper on a piece of plywood, with no context. You will just have to take my word for it...


    Bottom edge of Mould No. 3 pattern 5 mm off sheet edge - checked with straight-edge by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    So, I can just squeeze all seven moulds onto the three sheets with a small amount of jiggery pokery. But given what you say, James - do I want to? I am starting to wonder. The one reason that I didn't want to hack put the middles of the moulds too much was because all three sheets of plywood are quite badly cupped along their main axes, and gutting the mould would leave little leeway for straightening battens. (I am wishing now from that point of view that I had got oriented strand board - ​really hard to find in 12 mm in this neck o' the woods, I've only found one supplier of OSB, and they only had 6 mm - or chipboard, although neither comes in 2440 x 1220, of course).

    The solution to the cupping problem in nesting the moulds would be to use shorter lengths of batten - I was going to use 40 x 40 mm (1-1/2" sq.) meranti, which I have quite a bit of, left over from my failed attempt at a painting tent for the 'Duck (no matter what I did, including wearing a Tyvek(R) suit, the dust got on the paint, and I gave up).

    I will ponder this further.

    I'm going to deal with the absolutely normous versions of the snaps in post no. 36, now.

    By the bye, I have realised that the really easy way to keep my session alive is to use the 'preview' button regularly and often... Of course.

    Addendum: thinking a bit more about your suggestion while I was re-stacking the plywood, I suddenly realised what you were saying, and that I could get all the moulds on just one or one and a bit sheets. I remember seeing your exact suggestion in Iain's Manual, now that I come to think of it. There would still need to be enough 'meat' for straightening battens, of course. Or, If I'm careful, I can select straighter bits of plywood to cut the mould parts from.

    Another bonus is a bit more crawl-space under the boat, for removing squeeze-out and general checking. Excellent!

    Many thanks, James.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-16-2018 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Added a further thought - and a quote mark
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  5. #40
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Hi Alex
    Just back from Italy I found your thread.
    You won´t be disappointed with the sooty tern. It is a fantastic little vessel. Still after 8 yeas sailing it it amazes me again and again.
    About the molds, it is like James said, they don't need to be out of one piece. Looking at the pictures, I guess you will build each mold out of two halfes?
    Why don´t you cut out each mold as a complete part?
    Have fun mate
    Max

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Hello Max! Welcome to my Sooty thread, and thanks. I trust that you had a good time in Italy . Long John Silver has been and is one of my main inspirations - I show photos of her, cribbed from this forum, to show all my friends - and anyone else who'll listen/look.

    Regarding cutting the mould out in one piece: if I do, there won't be enough plywood for one of the moulds and I will have to buy an extra sheet. If that sounds like penny-pinching - it is! Which is unusual, because I don't often do that. Call it an indecent haste to get started after a long wait - but you know what they say about haste and waste... I'm pondering the options available at the moment, and the following shows where I've got to with half-mould piece layout - starting with the largest, Mould No. 4.

    1. Mould 4 half-frames - first approximation. This is a first-pass look at the putative alternative method per James's suggestion. Frame-halves can be closer together, and possible narrower. The LH half-frame could come in a bit from the edge of the sheet so that there is an actual line, too. That would also make spotting through with the divider tip easier and more accurate.


    Mould 4 half-frames - first approximation by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    2. Half-frames compared with full mould width - 260 mm less that the original width of 1660 mm (approx.)


    Half-frames compared with full mould width by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    3. Half-frame cluster compared with full-mould height (depth) - 205 mm less that the original full-mould height/depth of 740 mm. So all up, a bit of a gain in space, and that in a more rectangularly compact area compared with the quasi-triangular bits lost to the original full-width mould. Apropos of nothing, I think that this is the 'C' grade veneer side of the sheet.


    Half-frame cluster compared with full-mould height (depth) by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    4. Box of Si-bronze ring nails - I remembered the other day that I had these. Possible candidates for securing the plank hoods to the stems, but I suspect that (bronze) screws will be more robust. These were initially going to be used well over ten years ago to assemble a flight-box for my radio control gear, but I abandoned that idea. Still got the nails, though.


    Si-bronze ring nails by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    This 'new' alternative is showing promise - I will continue to ponder it, and maybe take to the insides of my mould patterns with scissors so that I can get a clearer view of where I'm plopping down the 'second half' of the pattern. I am quite warming to the idea, but I got it wrong regarding The Manual - those were drawings of (integral) dory frames. I must have seen such things on WBF and the Oz Woodworkers Forum.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-17-2018 at 02:21 AM. Reason: Various edits
    You can never have too many clamps

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    I have been thinking more about the gutted half-moulds. There’s a lot in their favour, but I have one concern, and that is, stiffness. I am wondering how the 12 mm plywood will stand up to the weight of the planking, and the twisting forces at the ends, without bracing. I am also wondering if this is what you mean by “using whatever random framing lumber is necessary to hold it together”, James? Using 12 mm ply doublers one one or both sides of the mould remnant - staying clear of the outside edge, however, seems to me to be a reasobable idea.

    What do you - or anyone else - think?

    I’ll be taking the scissors the the mould patterns tomorrow, but I will probably redo Moulds 4 and 5 in draughting paper as I don’t think that the butcher’s paper patterns will last five seconds after having been put on a severe diet by the scissors.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    You can never have too many clamps

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    The 12mm plywood will stand the weight of the planking just fine. If the plywood has curved, straighten it with a batten or two. Brace the moulds with diagonals down to the ladder frame and tie them together. Don't worry!
    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Looks like you are making good progress with the moulds. Making them in sections is certainly the most economical way to go....and also lets you get to the inside more easily as you said. When done, there will be plenty of bracing/diagonals between the moulds to make things rigid and true: don't worry about what it looks like ....just that it does the job and does not interfere with the planking when it goes on. And you may already be onto this one ...make sure you set the strongback at a height that makes it easy to work on the planking: this will include being able to get under the strongback to clean up after glue goes on.
    Carry on ...enjoying this one.
    Cheers
    PeterW

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    I had something of an 'away morning' today - a trip to Wentworth Falls to cart up the dust extractor, and bring back some stuff that I either needed or shouldn't have taken up in the first place (yet).

    1. Dust extractor (almost) on its way westwards(-sh)



    Dust extractor on its way westwards
    by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    2. Nice and snug. I removed the handle/motor assembly support and stuck it between the seats, thus making it easier to get the motor/fan unit in without having to be too accurate with a really heavy object. You can see here, even more clearly, that it hasn't been used yet. Unfortunately, the handle's fan housing attachment lugs have been bent - most likely when it and other items went into the shipping container for storage. Or in transit...


    Nice and snug by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    3. ‘Duck Roof repurposed - as an open ‘shed’. I had too close a look on the way past to get the trolley to move the dust extractor fan housing inside the house (not putting it in the garage!) and spotted ... some oregon! Note that the 'side of the Duck Roof were shaped exactly to the boat's sheerline so that it would next snugly on the side decks (3 mm insertion rubber pads to prevent too much damage to the boat in transit). Triple-coated and primed epoxy inside and out, with Norglass marine paint topccoat on the outside. Roof is 9 mm plywood with a crowsfoot fibreglass ridgecap and WEST carbon fibre tow insert underneath. This was after The First Great 'Duck Disaster when an overhanging branch come adrift and speared through the foredeck. The Second Great (And Even Bigger) Great 'Duck Disaster was when the uncovered boat filled with water during a sudden rainstorm - and fell off the boat trailer because it wasn't tied down. Hence its new Roof. Ironically, the Roof was propped against the side of the father-in-law's house, but fell over in a high wide - and had chunk torn out out of one roof edge (you can see it towards the LHS of snap) when it hit a handy nearby steel post. I do rather like the effect of the ventilation holes in the 'gables' at each end, even if I say so myself: it gives it the air, somewhat, of an old-fashioned dovecot...


    ‘Duck boat roof repurposed - as an open ‘shed’ by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    4. This post shouldn’t be here: at least one side of it length is relatively clear, straight, close oregon, and can be used without scarphing...


    This shouldn’t be here: it’s a length of relatively clear, straight, close oregon by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    5. Here’s another piece of oregon that shouldn’t be where it is. Nice tight grain, and tending towards the 'quarter-sawn'. It looks as though there might be two similar pieces above it, too.


    Here’s another piece of oregon that shouldn’t be where it is by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    6. Lengthwise view of oregon beam - even clearer than the upright. I am going to have to say something about this: a short tutorial in the uses of clear, straight, tight-grained oregon is required, I think. The rubber deck-pads are quite visible in this snap.


    Lengthwise view of oregon beam - even clearer than the upright by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    To give the Painters their due, they have moved some of their gear to a little storage shed on my father-in-law's property. The painting of the sides of the garage is the rate-limiting step here at the moment, which regards to my own reinfestation of said space.

    More exciting snaps to follow. Well, exciting if you like that sort of thing. I know I do.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-18-2018 at 05:49 AM.
    You can never have too many clamps

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Hello Ian and Peter,

    Thank you for continuing to follow the fits and starts of a would-be boat-builder - well, would-be second-boat builder would be more accurate, but isn't quite as snappy. I meant to reply to your posts before I put up the one of my own above, but I got distracted by posting snaps to Flickr, then thinking about the oregon...

    Quote Originally Posted by IanMilne View Post
    The 12mm plywood will stand the weight of the planking just fine. If the plywood has curved, straighten it with a batten or two. Brace the moulds with diagonals down to the ladder frame and tie them together. Don't worry!
    Ian
    Thank you, that sound sensible. There are some snaps of the latest conniptions to follow in a bit.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeterWidders View Post
    Looks like you are making good progress with the moulds. Making them in sections is certainly the most economical way to go....and also lets you get to the inside more easily as you said. When done, there will be plenty of bracing/diagonals between the moulds to make things rigid and true: don't worry about what it looks like ....just that it does the job and does not interfere with the planking when it goes on. And you may already be onto this one ...make sure you set the strongback at a height that makes it easy to work on the planking: this will include being able to get under the strongback to clean up after glue goes on.
    Carry on ...enjoying this one.
    Cheers
    The height of the building frame is indeed something that I have been pondering. Mr Oughtred says 400 mm, plus or minus a bit, according to the height of the individual, on his Construction Notes sheet. I don't want it to be so high that I will be using a step ladder to plane the keelson and inboard garboard edges, and of course I don't want it so low that it makes cleaning up squeeze-out a complete nightmare, and I end up with an even more completererish nightmare and bleeding fingers when I try to remove completely cured glue blobs and runs from the inside.

    The building frame for the 'Duck was about 300 mm high, which was comfortable for leaning over the upside down boat, or over the right-way-up cockpit, but then, I didn't have to do much crawling about under the upturned boat to remove the residual glue, and in any case it was relatively easy, especially with a headlamp. 300 mm, however, is far too low for the Sooty, and I wouldn't even think of it.760-odd plus 400 mm = 1.2 m, give or take, and rounding off. The video evidence of Geoff Kerr happily kneeling on the garboards of a Caledonia Yawl wielding an 240 V-powered electric planer suggests that some work can be done sitting atop the upturned boat - but not when it is in its initial stages - possibly not until the third or fourth strake has gone on. Anyway, I will be keeping fairly close to Iain's 400 mm +/- - a mock-up of the expected height might help.

    Which reminds me, I will be doing the plank-scarphing on the bench, not on the boat!

    Cheers to you both, lovely to have you along .

    Alex.
    You can never have too many clamps

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Thanks, Alex. You can see on my Kotik thread how I made my moulds and set them up. I could climb in and out of the set-up and between moulds quite easily (but it's a bigger boat). My ST moulds are (I still have them) 12mm MDF. The ladder frame is high enough that I could get under it OK, by sliding on my back on the floor.
    The CY garboards are 12mm ply, BTW.
    I'm about to do another posting on my Kotik thread.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    Last edited by IanMilne; 10-18-2018 at 02:11 PM.
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Hello Ian,

    I've been back and had another look at page one of Kotik, Kotik, Kotik! - the thing that I remembered most was the blocks on the moulds for the framing! They seem to have crowded out the open moulds from my memory - that and the solid mould for Station 1, and its attached solid support for a stem (which I am assuming but is not necessarily the bow stem). I also remember the bracing. Interestingly, one of your captions is "The wide open spaces." in relation to the moulds. it's weird that I didn't pick that up.

    Anyway, I didn't get much more done on patterns today - the shed at home was too hot, sticky and generally unpleasant after some much needed rain recently, so all I did was tidy away (for a certain value of "tidying") the tools that I brought back, then getting them out again to attack the saw table with. I also decided that I'd had enough of the uncontrollable butcher's paper patterns for Mould 4 and 5 (see below), and started setting up for making some slimmed ones out of paper from the printer roll - but I was defeated in the end by the heat and humidity, and it isn't even hot yet (latent heat of water, and lack of evaporation, and so forth).

    I did, however, take a silly number of snaps today, and in fact, that's all that I seemed to do, looking back. But I did do some productive things like retrieve some useful items from what I'm calling the Hell Hole at the moment (serves me right for taking them up there in the first place), and I made an exciting discovery, of which more in this or my next post. Well, I found it exciting - as to whether anyone else does I wouldn't really know. And I started dismembering the tables saw for transport - until it got too hot.

    One of the reasons that I am junking the flimsy patterns is that they are too labile - I kept getting different shapes each time that I spread them out. On another note, it appears that I mistook the pattern for No. 5 for the pattern for No. 4, and to clear all confusion, I rubbed everything out, and will start again with more reliable Nos. 4 and 5 patterns. Note, however, that these are only 'near enough is good enough' patterns at this stage,to enable me to get an idea of the cutting layout, ans something of an idea of the amount of trimming. Ths is entirely consistent with my 'measure with a micrometer, draw with a crayon, and cut with an axe' approach. It isn’t really, but sometimes it seems like that.

    1. Pattern No. 5 (you can tell that it's pattern No. 5, since you can see a plank marked 6-5, i.e., the sheerstrake at Station 5), in an adjusted position about 5 mm inboard of the left and top (as I have been working) sheet edges. The lines of what is probably No. 5's (not No. 4's, as I had blithely but ignorantly thought) initial location underneath the paper pattern have yet to be rubbed out here. The centreline was also moved towards the sheet edge: it was originally too to far the right, as I had lined up the paper edge instead of the C/L, which I have standardised at exactly an in from the paper edge (much easier with the stiffer paper).


    No. 4 (really, this time), inboard of sheet edges by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    2. The treely ruly No. 4 half-mould pattern with dieting line roughed in, Ready for the scissors, snip snip.


    No. 4 half-mould pattern with dieting line roughed in by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    3. Rough outline of not-No. 5 (i.e., No. 4), with trimming line. I actually drew the trimming line in with a rule: mould half-angles and a depth of 170 mm (provisionally), on a whim. It sort-of approximated the freehand line a bit. The main thing is the outer line, of course. The - soon to be removed - outline of the slimmed No. 5 outline can be seen below it.


    Rough outline of not-No. 5, with trimline by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    4. I appear to be going silly and doing stupid things with the forum editor, so I should call it quits for the day. Here's a snap of Wood Duck's Roof, repurposed - as an open ‘shed’


    ‘Duck boat roof repurposed - as an open ‘shed’ by Alex1N, on Flickr.

    Hopefully I will be in a saner state on the morrow.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-18-2018 at 06:28 AM. Reason: correcting myriad idiocies
    You can never have too many clamps

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    I had rather a fractured night's sleep, thanks to the blasted Dog waking me up, but better than nothing. Went up to WF to see the painters - and take another consignment of gear to store in the house. I spenyt mostofthe day filling in vast tracts of WRC door that the local cockatoos have had a great time tearing to pieces. Epoxy and sanding filler used.

    Here's where I got to yesterday but couldn't scratch no more:

    1. Father-in-law’s ratchet drill brace - this saves me having to ask my poor aged mum - or my siblings - in Adelaide to look for my dad's one. This is one of the Exciting Finds, but not the most exciting (to paraphrase The Big Knights...). Note the Bote-Cote 4 litre filler buckets - but not the dirty floor. That won't be swept until it's a Painter Free Zone(TM)!


    Father-in-law’s ratchet drill brace by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    2. Monster circle cutter aus Carbatec - yet another 'Duck alumnus. Oz 10 cent piece give scale (23.5 mm diameter)


    Monster circle cutter by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    3. Father-in-law’s hand planes: oak plane on the left, Stanley/Bailey No. 4 on right.


    Father-in-law’s hand planes by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    4. Boss’s aunt’s hand plane - this in fact the same one in the previous snap. She must have given it to the Boss's dad. It is highly likely that this either belonged to the aunt's father - Robert Lorimer, who was the owner of the smaller boatyard next door to the more famous Robertson's Boatyard, and where the Boss's late uncle worked - when he wasn't at the 'family' one. It may have belonged to the Boss's uncle, though: said uncle rigged and otherwise worked on Spectre, , and crewed on her for her America's Cup Challenge races, so that plane has a bit of history as a boatbuilding tool. I will have to make enquiries - the father in law; also has an array of chisels from the same source.


    Boss’s aunt’s handplane by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    5. Kit bag of essential tools - brought home again. I brought the router bits home because I want to do an inventory of them.


    Kit bag of essential tools - brought home again! by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    6. Two Triton Multistands and two pieces of 2 x 4; the 2 x 4s were parts of the building frame from the 'Duck. Traces of high-build epoxy primer and Inter Brightside Yellow are visible at their ends. These will be used to clamping sheets of plywood to for cutting.


    Two Triton multistands and two pieces of 2 x 4 by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    More tomorrow, probably, as I have a rehearsal this evening. No I didn't, I should read my emails more carefully...

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-19-2018 at 03:39 AM.
    You can never have too many clamps

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Here are some more snaps:

    1. Venner V-belt: Sold as a quieter and more even alternative to rubberised fabric belts. Pretty expensive, too...


    Venner V-belt by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    2. Close up of pulley side of Venner belt segments


    Close up of pulley side of Venner belt segments by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    3. Rusted saw blade - another victim of the Workswamp


    Rusted saw blade - another victim of the Workswamp by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    4. Thick rust blob on the other side of my super-thin-kerf, super expensive 80-tooth CMT circular saw blade.


    Thick rust blob on 80-tooth circular CMT saw blade by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    5. Close-up of thick rust blob on circular saw blade. Hump. Where's the cold chisel. I'm only half-joking...


    Close-up of thick rust blob on circular saw blade by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    6. Carbatec ‘contractor’s saw table’ with its extremities removed; Triton stands with 2 x 4 support clamped in place, waiting patiently in the background. Snap is slightly out of seqeunce, judging by the fact that the V-belt is still on the saw's drive pulley


    Carbatec ‘contractor’s saw table’ with its extremities removed by Alex1N, on Flickr.

    More exciting tables saw snaps coming up...
    You can never have too many clamps

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    1. Wingless tablesaw


    Wingless tablesaw by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    2. Dust extractor and bits of table saw kindly stored in the father in law's house, in lieu of space in the garage. Some of it is stuff for the dust extractor: the 100 mm (4”) hoses, the two cloth bags, and the extractor-hood assembly that fits between the saw and the exctractor. The rest, like the table extension wings, the motor and power switch, base, heavy duty locking trolley and CMT blades make up the rest.


    Dust extractor and bits of table saw by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    3. Mr Snappy, on his new perch. Wotcha, Mr S!


    Mr Snappy, on his new perch by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    4. Main table and cabinet/trunnion/etc., separated. Both separate parts are still very heavy, but not as heavy when joined together! They will get carted up to Wentworth Falls shortly - once I've cleaned the parts up. This snap gives a good idea of the simple workings of the table saw (in general).


    Main table and cabinet/trunnion/etc., separated by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    5. Getting ready to make the new trimmed Mould No. 4. The extension piece was selected from various offcuts - in this case, from the Skyfarer fuselage plan, which I had squirrelled away with the printer paper roll some years ago. The scrap will be glued under the main sheet, using the UHU glue stick. The folded moulds plans is sitting on a piece of Caneite that I found behind something the other day when looking for something else. I want to keep the rolled moulds plan for the final marking out of the moulds proper: and the folded plan will benefit from being pinned down flat. The Caneite is an offcut from my model aircraft building board (a different structure entirely from the fuselage alignment jig), which is currently covered in Stuff Which Needs to be Put Away. The extra piece won’t be glued on at that rakish angle, by the way.


    Getting ready to make the new trimmed Mould No. 4 by Alex1N, on Flickr.\


    The surprise trip to Wentworth Falls today - I had been expecting to spend the morning at least dismantling the rest of the table saw and drawing up the trimmed Nos. 4 and 5 mould pattern on the 80 gsm paper - did allow me to take up a whole swag of stuff that I had overlooked yesterday (the main purpose of that trip was to bring back the tools), plus the various table saw extremities, stand, 'trolley' and peripherals. I also had a go at filling the cavernous holes made by the local gang of sulphur-crested white cockatoos, whose absolute favourite pastime is shredding western red cedar, wherever they can find it. The filling seemed quite successful - being out in full sunshine, the resin, of course, went off like a packet of crackers. I hadn't seen resin go off in thus situation before as all of my epoxy applications to this point have been under cover, so this was very interesting. It also allowed me to get two doors done - out of eight... Just as well, as the weather is forecast to be wet again over most of the next seven days or so (except for Tuesday).

    To my annoyance, I realised yesterday when I was starting to drive back home that I had nothing to clamp the plywood sheets to my stand-2x4 setup - they were all in the WF garage. I made sure to grab all the F-clamps plus some yellow-and-black ratchet clamp, and the two large Irwin clamps, which may end up being the most useful of the lot, given the very wide gape of their jaws - a good 750 mm or thereabouts. Oh, and quite by chance when rounding up the clamps at WF, I found my collection of jigsaw blades, sitting in an oil bath after their nasty similar experience to that of the circular saw blade (see previous post) - although not nearly as bad, thank goodness.

    That's it for today. My plans for tomorrow are to finish off the Nos. 4 and 5 patterns on good paper, but that was the plan for today, too.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-19-2018 at 08:05 AM. Reason: Editing
    You can never have too many clamps

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Um...another post today after all: I forgot to mention my very recent Bote-Cote enquiries, which have direct relevance to and ramifications for the build, vis-à-vis epoxy. I emailed the BoteCraft people this arvo after looking at the website to see if I could find any further information regarding their mysterious ‘Crystal’ resin. In the very pleasant reply that I got, I was informed that Bote-Cote has ‘had a few changes made to it’ - which changes would appear to amount to a profound difference in the resin. It is now clear (as implied by the name) and colourless, and there is no such thing now as the separate ‘General’ and ‘Crystal’ resins as suggested by the website’s ordering system: they are both one and the same thing now.

    That in itself is a major difference, given that the Bote-Cote that I used to use - and still do, for glue and filler - is a semi-opaque white-ish colour when in the bottle or mixing pot (but generally clear when used as a surfase coating, unless you go silly and produce a millimetre-or-so thick coat - but I never heard of anybody who did, myself included).

    There are other major differences as well, apparently: more flexibility in the cured resin; a slightly thicker consistency; and an included insect repellent (citronella, perhaps?) to dissuade insects from diving into the stuff before it goes off (I had a mozzie do just that in the sanding filler that I was applying today). These three items can be found mentioned on the Boatcraft Pacific website, e.g., here, although that particluar link doesn’t mention the clear resin, or not that I saw, anyway.

    This seems to me to amount to what is a complete reformulation of the product. After the terrible strife that I had with surface-coating with it with the ‘Duck project (silicone was also implicated in this, but the WEST resin (105/207) that I switched to in sheer self-defence never showed the same symptoms), I’m going to give the well-known home-grown product another go, and maybe still with the non-yellowing hardener. Use of the latter will depend on whether I decide to try Deks Olje on the spars or not. If I go with the oil, I won’t need the NYH. I have been pondering giving the open gunwales a bright finish, too, but that might be making a very painful rod for my own back - and fingers!

    Regardless of final finishes, I am going back to the good ol’ Bote-Cote, to see what happens*.

    Cheers,
    Alex.

    * There’ a saying about curiosity (and cats), I seem to remember.
    You can never have too many clamps

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Right. I have another question. There is something of a controversy in my mind (well, to be honest, there are multiple controversies in my mind, but this is the one at the surface right at the moment) regarding planking on the mould outlines, but bear in mind that this is the first time that I have attempted such a thing.

    Some people - for example, Mr McMullen - say not to bother cutting off the curve between outside plank points; in some builds that I've seen here, the distance between the points is cut to a straight line; in Mr Oughtred's Manual he says leave the curve round for narrow-strake hulls (like a Guillemot or Tammie Norrie, for example), or cut it off for wide-strake hulls (Ness Yawl, Tirrik, Willy Tern, etc.). Boats like the Sooty Tern, Caledonia Yawl, Eun na Mara and Kotik seem to me to it somewhere in the middle with around seven or eight strakes, depending on who's doing the planking.

    Even if the mould is left in a curve to begin with, presumably it has to be levelled off at at some stage before the next plank is spiled, otherwise the planks on a wider-straked hull would never fit per the design (and maybe not float for very long, either).

    James said in one post that I read (in Vernon's Sooty thread, I think) that this results in 'a sweeter curve'. I'm not sure that my 'technique' is up to that and my preference at this stage is to trim between points and get in first, so to speak - much like my intention to scarph the planks on the bench - but I would like to know what far more experienced people think, and why, of course.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    You can never have too many clamps

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Alex,
    A few posts back James McMullen pointed out that you only need the edges when building moulds. For an illustration of what he meant, you can see what I did when building Fire-Drake a few years ago. See Post #18
    As you can see, you can use solid lumber that doesn't have to be first quality. In my case it was 3/4" stock. S-P-F which is readily available here. You may have something equivalent.
    Fire-Drake is very similar in size and construction technique to a Sooty Tern so the moulds you are looking at in that picture would be similar in scale to the moulds you need
    I transferred the lines from the lofting to the lumber by setting a bunch of roofing nails on edge in the lofting ply then laying the mould stock on top and walking on it. This makes indents all along the softwood lumber that you can cut with a bandsaw or jig saw. It's a pretty standard technique.
    Alex

    "“He was unfamiliar with the sea and did not like it much: it was a place that made you cold and wet and sick” " Nevil Shute, Trustee From the Toolroom

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Right. I have another question. There is something of a controversy in my mind (well, to be honest, there are multiple controversies in my mind, but this is the one at the surface right at the moment) regarding planking on the mould outlines, but bear in mind that this is the first time that I have attempted such a thing.

    Some people - for example, Mr McMullen - say not to bother cutting off the curve between outside plank points; in some builds that I've seen here, the distance between the points is cut to a straight line; in Mr Oughtred's Manual he says leave the curve round for narrow-strake hulls (like a Guillemot or Tammie Norrie, for example), or cut it off for wide-strake hulls (Ness Yawl, Tirrik, Willy Tern, etc.). Boats like the Sooty Tern, Caledonia Yawl, Eun na Mara and Kotik seem to me to it somewhere in the middle with around seven or eight strakes, depending on who's doing the planking.

    Even if the mould is left in a curve to begin with, presumably it has to be levelled off at at some stage before the next plank is spiled, otherwise the planks on a wider-straked hull would never fit per the design (and maybe not float for very long, either).

    James said in one post that I read (in Vernon's Sooty thread, I think) that this results in 'a sweeter curve'. I'm not sure that my 'technique' is up to that and my preference at this stage is to trim between points and get in first, so to speak - much like my intention to scarph the planks on the bench - but I would like to know what far more experienced people think, and why, of course.
    Leave the curves in until you actually start spiling the planks (with battens) and see where they actually end up. You can always flatten them as needed with a plane, very quickly, later.
    Remember it's always easier to take wood off than add it back on.
    Alex

    "“He was unfamiliar with the sea and did not like it much: it was a place that made you cold and wet and sick” " Nevil Shute, Trustee From the Toolroom

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Hello Alex,

    Thank you very much for your response, and welcome to this thread. I was in fact going to add a query about lofting - but you've answered that. too.

    I have some 19 mm x 200-ish (3/4" x 8" +/-), from memory, radiata pine shelving in the wood heap, and I will ponder using that. Having acquired the plywood at $50/sheet, I am inclined to still use that. I have, however, already changed my mind about the slimmed half-moulds, so it is more than possible that I could change my mind about the wood used. And I've started to change my mind - or at least get my mind around the idea - of using the lofted curve. I would take those straight from Iain's offsets.

    Thinking further, I could use the plywood for doing the actual lofting on, and whacking nails through that into the pine shelving (of which I have quite a bit) after assembling them oversize for cutting.

    I will continue to ponder this further: thank you once again!

    Cheers
    Alex.
    You can never have too many clamps

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Ponder, ponder, ponder...

    I meant to say that how lovely Fire-Drake looks in my last post, Alex, so I have now . I think that I remember reading your thread a couple of years ago (I 're-'reading it now). I did indeed read it back then (2016?) - I distinctly remember one of Bruce Moffat’s comments (I’m originally from Adelaide -and miss it), and your flat-but-to-be-rounded transom. And the computer-generated foil and its video. And the boat hoist. And the blue tape (I use a lot of 3M blue tape). And...and in fact I even posted in the thread about fingers in table saws (twitch twitch)and my own experience in late Feb 2016. I knew that I’d seen the multi-part moulds somewhere, and it was your Fire-Drake thread!

    Ponder, ponder, ponder...

    1. Paper pieces for the basic pattern for Mould No. 4 stuck together. The DWL was drawn in on this and the No. 5 pattern this time, for completeness (and practise!): it's the darker, higher line of the two, as the lower line is simply where the two sheets are UHU-glued together.


    Paper pieces for the basic pattern for Mould No. 4 stuck together by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    2. No. 4 pattern outline cut out, inner cut-line roughed in by eye


    No. 4 pattern outline cut out, inner cut line roughed in by eye by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    3. New No. 5 pattern.


    New No. 5 pattern by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    The seven lofted mould patterns for nailing can, of course, simply be made on the one sheet of plywood, to one common set of 4" waterlines, and one or two (for fore and aft, and less potentially mistake-inducing clutter) common centrelines. So just one sheet of plywood.

    And this new approach makes all my mould patterns for determining the pattern layout on plywood redundant at a stroke. Not that I mind that - I have a much better familiarity with the various sections - particularly those of 4 and 5! - than I otherwise might have.

    As might be inferred from my ramblings above, I have come around to the idea of making radiata moulds - although I really haven't decided what to do yet.

    Any one want three sheets of cupped 'CD' 1200x 2400 structural plywood, one with scalpel cuts and nail holes in it, if I decide to go the way of the timber moulds? No. I thought not. Hmm. Into the plywood storage are for another possible project, then*. Buy in haste, repent at leisure, to bend the old saying. Again.

    Cheers,
    Alex.

    * At least one can be used for finger clamps as orginally intended, and another for properly lofting the stems independent of each other, although again the cupping might be an issue without battens.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-19-2018 at 11:11 PM.
    You can never have too many clamps

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    I had made up the 4 and 5 paper mould patterns before seeing Alex’s post:

    1. Possibly the last piece of work using the paper mould patterns. Note the small packet of ringed panel pins in the bottom RH corner...


    Possibly the last piece of work using the paper mould patterns by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    2. Poor person’s draughting-board tools - using a larger and more solid straight edge to capture the position of the initial line segment, before sliding the working straight-edge to the right to get the required (water)line length.


    Poor person’s draughting-board tools by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    3. DWL and 4”/102 mm waterlines drawn onto plywood. I will have to extend the lines a few inches to set up a second set of mould outlines (fore or aft): I stopped a little short.


    DWL and 4”/102 mm waterlines drawn onto 12 mm plywood sheet by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    I now have the Arctic Tern Lines plan out again for further study.

    Still pondering this.

    Additional note: were I to go down the lofting pathway - and it does look more and more as though I will - if the plywood sheet used to mark the radiata boards is still,in one piece, I could screw it down onto the secondem sheet, eliminating the cup, and use the resultant 24 mm board for lofting and producing the stems.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-21-2018 at 06:15 PM. Reason: Smaller image trial - second snap bumped down to 800 x 600; the first one is 1024 x 768; added third 'missing' snap as No. 2
    You can never have too many clamps

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Hi Alex,
    I agree with what Alex Z said about planing the flats on the moulds. You don't need to do it until you have to. I prefer to leave the moulds "in the round" until they are all set up, (with the lands, buttocks and waterlines marked on them) then tack a batten along each line of lands to check that they are fair, and alter the marks if necessary. (If I have changed any of Iain's marks, it was very minimal.) I see in my "Southern Sooty Tern" thread that I must have planed all the flats at that stage, but on the Kotik I just planed each line of them, to the extent necessary, at the same time as I was bevelling the previous plank.
    I have used both plywood and MDF for moulds. The MDF panels stayed straight but the plywood needed battens screwed on to straighten some of the pieces, as you say, but if I had a stack of old radiata boards I would certainly use those.
    See if you can get "The Dory Book" by John Gardner, from your public library. Sam Manning's drawings are very clear.
    Cheers, Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Thank you for your advice, Ian. The curve-flat issue is resolving itself in my head now -just in time for me to get my brain tangled up with the diagonals. Iain doen’t mention them in his glossary and I can’t recall reading about them in the text, while he does explain the buttocks, and they seem straightforward. For some reason I can’t visualise them in side view, unless the are straight lines - and I cannot work out what they are or how they are generated. I will have a look and see if the local Council library system has “The Dory Book” - it may be available through inter-library loan.

    I think I’m just tired - time for an early night as I have a full-day rehearsal tomorrow, with longish travel at each end.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    You can never have too many clamps

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Thanks, Alex. You're a busy lad!
    Think of a loaf of bread, sliced up cross-ways, lengthways, vertically and diagonally.
    Cheers
    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    That's a very good analogy, Ian. I was perplexed by not being able to work out the reason behind the origin points of the diagonals, your comment actually put that in perspective (so to speak).

    I did an internet search out of curiosity, and came up with a page on lofting basics on the Sandy Point Boatworks site, which says that diagonals are used to pick out frames, and are not generally useful in a lofting sense other than to describe 'blind-spot' areas of the hull that buttocks and waterlines don't.

    I have decided to just go with your very apt analogy and put the diagonal marks on the loftings for future use if necessary, but otherwise not to fret about them.

    I will start to have a look for "The Dory Book" now.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-21-2018 at 08:00 AM.
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  28. #63
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Blaxland, NSW, Australia
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    148

    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    My plans to take the rest of the tables saw up to Wentworth Falls and check on the width of the radiata sheets was completely derailed by my getting myself a week out of synch with the date - hence a 'slightly' unexpected rehearsal today. It is in a very good cause, however: for a music therapy unit for the Children's Hospital at Westmead here in Sydney via a concert in the Sydney Town Hall.

    As it turned out, I didn't need to extend the waterlines, happily:

    1. Common waterlines with two centrelines for Sooty Tern mould lofting: slow but steady progress. By dint of 'nesting' the aft mould lines into those of Moulds 1 to 4, I was able to avoid extending the waterlines, and cribbed a bit of sheet space, which may make the sheet a little less unwieldy may when/if I slice the unmarked end off. I thought about 'simply' lofting the moulds in the layout of Iain's plans sheet, but decided against that as it wouldn't be simple at all, and I also want the waterlines to be common to all moulds - a happy coincidence.


    Common waterlines with two centrelines for Sooty Tern mould lofting by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    2. Closer-up view of centre- and water-lines. I thought this snap necessary since I have shrunken the image size by request. Note that the DWL is the one directly to the right (or above) the top end of the pencil.


    Closer-up view of centre- and water-lines by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    Step by step. The next step, of course, is to start marking in the offsets from the Arctic Tern Lines plan (I have already added the Sooty sheerline values to the table on the Arctic Lines sheet, for greater convenience and accuracy). That will be followed by a great whacking-in of panels pins... It has occurred to me that the paper patterns won't be wasted - I can use them to approximate the placement of the mould outlines on the radiata boards. I like it when things aren't wasted.

    I searched the Sydney Uni and local Blue Mountains Libraries without success for 'The Dory Book' earlier this evening, but I haven't given up yet.

    I am happy with overall progress so far - there's nothing to be gained in rushing it.

    Cheers,
    Alex.

    Additional note: I tracked down a paperback copy of the Gardner/Manning book here in Oz via AbeBooks - and bought it.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-21-2018 at 06:55 AM. Reason: Added an additional note
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  29. #64
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    Posts
    432

    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Yes, it's just a slow patient process.
    Glad you had a good rehearsal and you got a Dory Book.
    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  30. #65
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Blaxland, NSW, Australia
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    148

    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Thanks, Ian.

    Having been reading through Vernon’s ST thread again, specifically post no. 69, I noticed the nails on their sides — then went back and re-read Alex Z’s first post, and there, loud and clear, is the same description in words. I must slow down and read things more carefully. After all, it’s not a race.

    I can still use the panel pins, though — just placed on their sides instead of nailed through the plywood. I don’t know what I was thinking (I wasn't thinking, but see above). But I will also be using them, of course, for the initial lofting process itself...

    For the sake of completeness, just a note that I inserted a snap in post no. 58 above as 'No. 2' - I thought that the camera hadn't taken it, but there it was last night, glaring at me and gnashing its sharp pointy teeth. This is in my 'new', next-size down', size, by the way. I could go back to the beginning of the thread using the source-code mode of the editor and change one letter in the URLs' strings for all the snaps that I've posted (except the ones already changed, of course), but I will think a bit before I do that (though not too long).

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-21-2018 at 06:12 PM. Reason: added the relevant post number for and linkback to it in Vernon’s “20’ Sooty Tern” thread
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  31. #66
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Victoria, BC, Canada
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    1,187

    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Found these pictures from my first build, illustrating the nailhead transfer method for solid timber moulds:






    Alex

    "“He was unfamiliar with the sea and did not like it much: it was a place that made you cold and wet and sick” " Nevil Shute, Trustee From the Toolroom

  32. #67
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Blaxland, NSW, Australia
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    148

    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Hello Alex,

    Thank you very, very much for the great, clear photos! Very instructive. It looks as though I had come up with the same approach for marking out the keelson notch and cleat locations (in my head) as you did - which is encouraging! And we appear to have similar rubber mallets. There's a dead-blow mallet somewhere, buried somewhere in the mess on my aeromodelling workbench at home - another project on the books is retrieving it...

    Looking at the lovely contrasty background makes me think that I should gleu some pieces of (but-joined) paper onto the plywood - I would be able to correct mistakes more easily and increasing the overall legibility! I'll need to get some more glue-sticks. There are a few holes in the sheets' 'C' surface veneer (the 'D' side is worse), which might prove to be a problem, will have to have a closer look to see where they might lie in relation to the mould lines. NO: info in the previous sentence is absolutely wrong: being 'C' grade, all holes ahve been filled and the sheet sanded. So, no holes to worry about. Oh dear, oh dear. One day I will get something right.

    And what you did regarding the common centreline makes much more sense than my current split approach. I really haven't been thinking this through at all.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-21-2018 at 08:44 PM. Reason: Added bit about covering the plywood with paper, and a correction to the bit about holes in the plywood
    You can never have too many clamps

  33. #68
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    Blaxland, NSW, Australia
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Here are three snaps of my morning's efforts (I have been doing other things besides):

    1. Checking DWL and centreline for squareness. I'd forgotten that I'd acquired the 'Nautical Grid Protractor'...


    Checking DWL and centreline for squareness by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    2. Full set of paper half-mould patterns, in a sort of order (1-4, 7-5)


    Full set of paper half-mould patterns by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    3. Mould No. 1 lofting points drawn on; it would be slightly easier to see the point were the snap a bit (er, a LOT) larger. Note that the buttock lines and diagonal verticals, plus old and new sheerlines have been drawn on, projected from the centreline and DWL, have been drawn on. The multiple lines are because the overall outline has been reduced by 3 mm to account for the effect of the 9 mm ply at the bow and stern aprons (otherwise the boat would either be 3 mm bigger all round, or there would be a step between the garboard and the apron...). This was in consultation with Mr Oughtred. When I test-fitted the batten, there was a wild wiggle in its trajectory, and there was a difference of +/- a few mm between the paper pattern and table points. I'll go back and check the numbers and the paper pattern...


    Mould No. 1 lofting points drawn on by Alex1N, on Flickr.



    4. Repositionable adhesives, and remover. Scotch 75 repositionable adhesive and 700 cleaner and solvent, and Fuller permanent/removable spray adhesive. Both adhesive cans are nearly empty, but I think that there is just enough in the 75 can alone to do the moulds-lofting sheet with a little bit left over. You can see quite evident effects from the Workswamp on these cans and labels.


    Repositionable adhesives, and remover by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    I'll be busy this arvo, so that's probably it for the day - unless I manage to buy a new glue stick - the old one has run out and I had to scoop the remnants out of the cup at the bottom with my thumbnail, to finish of paper moulds 4 and 5. I use the glue stick because it's semi-removable, drier than PVA, and I have run out of 3M's Scotch 75 repositionable spray adhesive, I think (I'll check though).

    It's good for me to learn to do things in small, patient steps.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-21-2018 at 08:42 PM. Reason: Added a snap, and a correction to the adhesive name
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  34. #69
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    Posts
    432

    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Hi Alex,
    1. I wasn't sure why you had two centrelines, but you've got that sorted now.
    2. You don't need to use so many nails on edge to transfer the pattern to the mould material - just enough to make marks to tap nails into to run a batten around. (The flathead nails on edge work just as well on MDF or plywood.)
    3. I'm not sure what you mean by "diagonal verticals".
    4. Some people paint their lofting surface with cheap white paint.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Blaxland, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Hello Ian,

    Thank you very much for your comments. I'm not sure what I mean by the diagonal verticals - other than the only way that I could get the D1 and D2 values on Iain's table to fit the first mould pattern were distances from the centreline - which implies that the vertical line for the 'diagonal' creates the diagonal's point on the mould outline where it intersects the outline of the mould pattern. At this stage, I'm tempted to ignore the diagonal values altogether.

    I can guarantee that as soon as I come up with an idea, someone else will come up with a better one, in this instance the white paint. I had already cut the paper out this arvo (see below), but will ponder the paint idea. The reasoning behind tacking paper onto the board is that it is an easily replaceable surface that pencil marks can be easily rubbed out from when I make the usual nest of mistakes.

    1. Paper pieces for covering lofting board. The idea is to spray the paper with repositionable adhesive, let it dry a bit, then carefully press it down onto the board, possibly with a used but clean cover on a paint roller. The width of the paper takes into account the support edges of Moulds Nos. 4 and 5 with their centrelines coincident, per a previous post. The join of the two pieces is conveniently located on the DWL, so that I don't have to worry about drawing that one in - I just need to make sure that it is perfectly parallel with the bottom edge of the sheet. The tacking adhesive should also allow the drawing surface to become usable more quickly than the painted surface.


    Paper pieces for covering lofting board by Alex1N, on Flickr.


    I have remembered that I have a draughtsman's T-square somewhere - I've seen it recently and I am trying to remember where. That would be a very useful tool, if it can be located (easily). Goodness knows where it is, though - there are far too many geographical locations (literally) where it could be lurking.

    I'm inclined to try the paper version out first - if it's an abysmal failure, I will try the paint next. I'll sleep on it.

    Thank you for your input, greatly appreciated.

    The bookseller sent me an email this morning to say that 'The Dory Book' would be in the post today - I'm hoping to have it by the end of the week.

    I did also rang Swadlings Timber early this morning to ask about the maximum clear oregon lengths that they have in stock. I should have remembered that it was Monday, and that they are closed on Sundays, so in the end it wasn’t very surprising that I didn’t hear back from them. I’ll try them again tomorrow.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 10-22-2018 at 06:43 AM. Reason: Cleaning up my usual errors of omission and commission, plus bit about timber yard
    You can never have too many clamps

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