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Thread: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

  1. #1
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    Smile "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    So there I was, minding my own business, and all of a sudden I've got an extra half built boat in my driveway!





    Ok, so I might not be so innocent. Several months ago, Rick Landreville saved this John Welsford Navigator. The guy who built it spent about 15 years working on it in chunks of time. The story is he is a salesperson of some kind, and moved around a lot. He decided to find someone else to finish it, rather than tote it across the country again. The only stipulation: Its name is INCONCEIVABLE, because its inconceivable that it would be finished!

    Well, Rick has several other boat projects, and decided to seek out someone else to finish it. I just happened to be on Facebook at the right moment, and a plan was hatched! Measurements were made, plans were considered, and a few "please, honey"s were said. Ultimately, the Admiral agreed to open a little space in the Port. My father in law, Steve, is my co-conspirator in this endeavor.

    The hull is complete, framing and bulkheads in place. It appears to have sat out in the weather, and some of the epoxy has failed, as well as the plank edges needing fairing. But its all there, and the plywood is in good shape, a testament to buying good materials. It came with the plans, and the intention is to finish it out as a balanced lug yawl. Electric power is the goal for auxiliary propulsion.

    I've got some other things to tend to, but progress on Inconceivable should begin soon.






    The First Mate approves.





    This should be useful....






    Obligatory.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  2. #2
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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Congratulations Ben. I think. The boat appears to have some finish issues. What's with the overhanging laps? And the lineoff in the bow is "interesting." Was this a kit boat, did it come with full size plans, or...? But it's all there to be a boat and the mate looks happy. I'm sure you will make it great.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    O man, Navigator is a sweet boat !
    Congratulations !!!!!
    1955 Fontana 18' - 1958 Atomic 4
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    Congratulations Ben. I think. The boat appears to have some finish issues. What's with the overhanging laps? And the lineoff in the bow is "interesting." Was this a kit boat, did it come with full size plans, or...? But it's all there to be a boat and the mate looks happy. I'm sure you will make it great.

    Jeff
    Yeah. Its a little odd. Based on the drips, I think he planked it right side up, and left the laps rough to be trimmed and faired when it got flipped over. It came with plans, its not a kit.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Looking forward to seeing this one come together!

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Yeah. Its a little odd. Based on the drips, I think he planked it right side up, and left the laps rough to be trimmed and faired when it got flipped over. It came with plans, its not a kit.
    I could be wrong, but I think that right-side-up is standard with a lot of Welsford designs that use a narrow flat bottom panel and lapstrake sides. That is a voluminous little boat, Navigator. Good luck with it!

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Congrats Ben,

    Halfway done is about right - after planking I was halfway done.

    I think the bottom of the laps are fixable. I cut them before installation, but I still did a little trimming after they were in with a little block plane.

    There is an extra page of plans that John drew for a balanced lug. PM me if you want a copy. Unfortunately the mast goes right in front of bulkhead #3, so it would be in the middle of the that big hatch hole.

    It's a little hard to tell from the photos, but it looks like he went off the plans around the centerboard trunk.

    Great project. I'm happy to have another Navigator build to watch.

    Kenny
    Almost everything about boats involves so much more time and money than one anticipates that rational and accurate planning will deter even starting. Ian McColgin

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    I think I saw this on CL a few months back, if so I remember being quite tempted.

    You are off to a nice start, launch party next spring?
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Congratulations! Great find
    Elect a clown expect a circus

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Congrats!
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Trimming those plank laps wouldn't be hard.Just use a router with the cutter set to the ply thickness-and no more-and tack a spline to the planks to guide the edge of the router base along a fair curve.You just need to measure the router base to see what the correct measurement will be to locate the spline.I would not recommend using the spline at the plank edge with a top bearing guided trimming cutter.Its too easy to wobble and cause a problem that way.

    Should be a nice boat when finished.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Trimming the plank edges shouldn't be hard. I'm more concerned with making sure that its still in shape. Some of the frame/plank epoxy joins have failed, so a bit of time will be spend making sure she's still "square". Along with that, carefully studying the plans and making sure we have a good understanding of whats there and what we want to do with it. I didn't see the balance lug plan in the plan set, so I will see about getting that supplement.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator



    Obligatory.
    "I do not think that word means what you think it means!" Just sayin'


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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    So...

    Is it done yet??

    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  16. #16
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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Well, progress is being made. It's now under cover, and the assessment has begun. Every joint will have to be looked at carefully, and I'm anticipating re-doing and reinforcing most or all of the joints.

    Fortunately, epoxy and plywood is a forgiving medium.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  17. #17
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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Great find Ben .
    I had a chance to borrow a Navigator in the Bribie Island Regatta and I was very impressed with this boat.
    We managed a first in the cruise race and even beat a Pathfinder after which we had a lively sail returning to windward with winds gusting to about 18 knots.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    That's a great boat for your waters. Good find.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Thanks Tim, I'm excited. Its going to be a great boat for gunkholing with the boys.

    Speaking of which....



    Tonight we did some assessing, some pondering, and decided on the general plan going forward. The Mates were also afforded the opportunity to check out their future quarters.




    - First Mate Bentley imagines manning the helm of his mighty vessel.




    - Second Mate Bryce questions why he has to be Second Mate.






    Overall assessment of the Inconceivable is positive. It clearly sat out in the elements for quite some time. Some of the epoxy has degraded due to UV exposure, and has failed. There are other places where it appears that thickened epoxy was used to compensate for miscalculations (he cut it three times and its still too short.) Overall, the actual wood is in good shape. No signs of rot anywhere. Surface discoloration, but everything is solid. Yay for ocume plywood. Therefore, we plan to over compensate by filleting everything, and maybe adding a bit of fiberglass tape for good measure in places. Its supposed to be a 300lb boat, so I figure 10 extra pounds of epoxy isn't hurting.

    There are some oddities, but its hard to tell the difference between "builders choice" and "didn't quite get that far". It has a hole in the transom for a yawl boomkin, but the 3rd bulkhead is in place for the sloop mast step.

    So we are planning on repairing the failed epoxy, and then on to fairing the planks. We'll flip it over, fair the garboard, fit the skeg, and then probably dynel the bottom.




    - The crew



    Could this boat be sailed someday?

    Inconceivable!

    Last edited by BBSebens; 10-12-2018 at 11:00 PM.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Looks pretty cool. My own isn’t terribly much further along, having stalled for the last couple of years.

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Good luck with her you obviously appear to have the skills and right attitude to get her finished.
    Just need to point out epoxy sitting exposed to UV should not fail ,either it’s been incorrectly mixed or there is rot in the plank lands adjacent.

    No doubt you will find some strange building practices and mistakes that will require creative solutions.

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by suzyj View Post
    Looks pretty cool. My own isn’t terribly much further along, having stalled for the last couple of years.
    You're being coy, Suzy. You just need to finish the world's coolest wooden mast, and you'll be ready to rig. Glad to see you're still cruising the forum.

    Kenny
    Almost everything about boats involves so much more time and money than one anticipates that rational and accurate planning will deter even starting. Ian McColgin

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by auscruisertom View Post
    Just need to point out epoxy sitting exposed to UV should not fail ,either it’s been incorrectly mixed or there is rot in the plank lands adjacent.
    Is this really true? I've always thought the clear consensus was that epoxy degrades with UV exposure unless it's protected by paint or varnish (or other UV blockers).

    What does everyone else think?

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Is this really true? I've always thought the clear consensus was that epoxy degrades with UV exposure unless it's protected by paint or varnish (or other UV blockers).

    What does everyone else think?

    Tom
    Epoxy is susceptible to UV. UV damages epoxy. Yes.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    UV does damage epoxy. But how much does the damage seep into the dark recesses of an epoxy joint?

    Jeff

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    UV does damage epoxy. But how much does the damage seep into the dark recesses of an epoxy joint?

    Jeff
    Right My statement on epoxy and UV exposure was probably too broad and not specified to an epoxy joint.

    My personal expirience in restoring a very neglected Tammie Norrie presently is that the exposed joints sitting outside in our Queensland blazing sun for several years did not show any forms of breakdown.
    I just can’t imagine UV rays penetrating into a 8 to 10mm (3/8”) joint over time, but am open to being corrected.

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by auscruisertom View Post
    I just can’t imagine UV rays penetrating into a 8 to 10mm (3/8”) joint over time.....
    Would you say it is 'inconceivable'?
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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    UV does damage epoxy. But how much does the damage seep into the dark recesses of an epoxy joint?

    Jeff

    A comment on my own comment: My question above is a real question. I don't know if uv damage can spread as does wood rot or not. Ben has reported there is uv damage to his new boat and I have to believe that there really is damage. Is it from uv exposure or something else. I wonder if West or some other epoxy company has done research?

    I do know that exposed epoxy will fail and I've always assumed that failure is due to uv light. I don't know this for a fact though.

    In any case, Ben's boat needs attention in the glued joints. It will be interesting to see how he tackles this situation.

    Jeff

  29. #29
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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    A comment on my own comment: My question above is a real question. I don't know if uv damage can spread as does wood rot or not. Ben has reported there is uv damage to his new boat and I have to believe that there really is damage. Is it from uv exposure or something else. I wonder if West or some other epoxy company has done research?

    I do know that exposed epoxy will fail and I've always assumed that failure is due to uv light. I don't know this for a fact though.
    I can say for sure that the epoxy itself has failed in several locations. The actual lump of epoxy is broken in the middle of it. My suspicion is that it is due to UV exposure along with possibly poor mixing. Its impossible to say for sure, of course. Not all Epoxies are equal, and I can only guess at the conditions the aforementioned Tammie Norrie might have been exposed to.

    In any case, Ben's boat needs attention in the glued joints. It will be interesting to see how he tackles this situation.

    Jeff
    The solution will be to grind out anything that is suspect and re-do it. Additionally, we will reinforce the main structural joints. The boat is pretty stout, though. It will be plenty solid by the time its floating in salt water.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

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    Default Re: "Inconceivable!", a Welsford Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    I can say for sure that the epoxy itself has failed in several locations. The actual lump of epoxy is broken in the middle of it. My suspicion is that it is due to UV exposure along with possibly poor mixing. Its impossible to say for sure, of course. Not all Epoxies are equal, and I can only guess at the conditions the aforementioned Tammie Norrie might have been exposed to.



    The solution will be to grind out anything that is suspect and re-do it. Additionally, we will reinforce the main structural joints. The boat is pretty stout, though. It will be plenty solid by the time its floating in salt water.
    She will be a great boat and a joy to sail once finished .
    Having build and sailed a Ness boat I would pick the Navigator any day as she is more weatherly and forgiving.

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