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Thread: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Thanks for the thread. I have nothing to add, except that she's a pretty boat I bet she will be a lot of fun on the water.
    Almost everything about boats involves so much more time and money than one anticipates that rational and accurate planning will deter even starting. Ian McColgin

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxophilite View Post
    Mentor!
    Or Sensai!
    Arcarius?

    Just picked up on your thread. Liking it! I do agree with the notion of staying with Rabl's original construction and not glassing the entire thing.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Thanks!
    Just to clarify I had no intention of glassing the inside of the boat, but rather sealing it as best as possible. The outside of the hull was already sheathed (redone in 86-ish with epoxy and either glass or xynole) and was originally glassed by the original owner.

    Regarding System three's S-1 sealer. System three has gotten back to me and S-1 sealer is definitely their own product.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    All good ideas, Thanks!
    The work on the garage space progresses well and I'm back sanding the boat in it's current location tomorrow morn, I'm NOT looking forward to sanding under the fore deck!
    A couple of further questions:

    -Should I really CPES the Entire interior?, up the sides, for the most part, the original paint seems to be adhering well (it resists being sanded off more)..just lazy I guess, the sanding is going well, maybe 1/3 done if I count the detail work in corners and crevices after the bulk sanding is done.

    -Eventually I'm going to add side benches, i was thinking probably up to the next frame,. I was trying to decide upon the simplest, prettiest and best functioning way to do this, extending the side 2 or three boards of the back bench up to the next frame with a support carefully bolted to that frame, maybe a little bulkhead?

    I think side benches area must, in a small boat like this I don't see myself sitting at the back the whole time, you need to get around the tiller and balance the boat fore and aft when single handing.

    -I have to replace a few of the hanging knees supporting the side decks. the originals are plywood and a few are delaminating. One quite badly, Is there any reason I can't make this out of solid wood rather than ply?


    I received some pictures from the owner that had her restored in the 80s and kept her till 4 years ago(nicely..in a garage) Here's how the interior looked before her winter of neglect.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    If the boat were WRC or AYC,I'd say just CPES to the waterline more or less.
    But because it is POC, I'd CPES all the bare wood on the inside.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Now you have me wondering if it is Port Orford Cedar... I meant to bring a piece of arrow with me to the boat to compare 100% sure..next time
    It does smell nice
    The thing that makes me wonder is that for the most part the interior paint adheres to the cedar like crazy especially up the sides, except where it was really wet (full of water) and in some corners. It actually doesn't adhere quite as well to the hardwood frames (teak?)
    Interestingly the last frame before the centerboard case ends, heading towards the bow would seem to fir or something else, definitely not teak or mahogany like the rest.

    Regardless of all this speculation lots more wooded out. Working in the bow is a glorious pain in the @$$! I need a space suit!
    pictures of the bow, stern and transom (which I would like to remove the seat support from to clean it up more as it's really pretty...fastened with nasty slot head screws!

    Lats picture is of the underside of the fore deck where the paint was hanging in strips. The paint underneath looks to have not been prepped prior to paint.
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  7. #42
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    In the photos, it LOOKS like AYC.
    POC is a whiter color, especially when wet.
    It was built up there? AYC is more common than POC.
    Their smell is distinctive, but different.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Yeah I took a bit of arrow over to the boat and it's not as aromatic, just has a nice freshly sanded, slightly damp pretty wood smell, distinctive in itself, but not as heavenly as the POC.

    So how much CPES would it take to properly coat the interior, 2-4 coats?
    Anyone have an idea of what that would translate into litres?

    And has anyone used the cold weather CPES??
    is it just plain bad to do any sort of epoxying in winter? or just slower cure times?

    The lady at the local supplier said maybe two litres as I was quoting her a guesstimate of 72 square feet for the interior.
    However she said they are completely out and deciding whether to order anymore this week
    So maybe mid november or FEBRUARY!!

    Also for the mahogany bright work and spruce mast

    Any point in epoxy under varnish? I have a fresh litre of epiphanes kicking around. as well as a litre of cetol marine clear and normal cetol marine

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    CPES is really about how much of it goes IN. If it is laying on top of he wood, its job is finished and it's time to move onto paint.
    Epoxy under varnish is a technique that tends to backfire over time. Epoxy changes the color of the wood differently than varnish, so any scratches/chafe spots/dings can never be blended in .
    I'm a cetol guy.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Yeah from what I've read , heard etc. cetol is way easier to maintain, just add more cetol!
    And they make it in a clear now if one wants to avoid the orangey deal.
    My friend uses it on the bit of brightwork on his canoe yawl pilgrims wake and it seems to do the trick for him and looks nice too

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    No progress on the boat in this rain, also I had a show last night and didn't want to wreck my hands sanding the week prior, but I did get it's new winter home cleaned out and organized so I can move it there this upcoming week.

    i have a couple questions about my necxt steps. First plan is to get he hull done, inside and out.
    so:

    1. the repairs to the cracked board should I CPES the inside prior to cutting a kerf in the crack , or repair that and then CPES the inside, or does it matter?
    For the cupped board I might see what if further drying out helps that before I cut through the outer sheathing to fix it (seems like doing it from the outside is the only way)

    2 the other question for now is, I'm still contemplating wooding out the entire hull though it seems I was mistaken about the POC and it's likely AYC.
    It's a pain but then i know the whole thing is sealed well. Still deciding.
    For the interior if i was to leave it bright would I just put a couple coats of clear west epoxy over the CPES
    Or is it a future pain to finish it bright? IS paint a lot easier in the long run? Though the boards are stained and old, the wood still looks lovely.
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 11-03-2018 at 10:45 AM.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Keep in mind that if finished clear, epoxy needs to be protected from uv rays. So several coats of appropriate varnish will be needed, too.
    -Dave

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Well the boat is moved to her new dry garage location, Not heated but dry and a lot closer to me.
    Scraping the remaining paint out of the impossible to reach corners etc.

    A question if I may:

    Over top of epoxy..and some prepped existing paint ( up above the waterline) what's a good sturdy interior boat paint to use?

    I've decided to paint the interior white and let the wood floorboards, benches,combings and cabin sides be the wood element to the interior.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    I'd paint it with Interlux 404/414. It's an epoxy paint/coating that one might consider overkill, but it's great stuff.
    You can leave it alone, or paint something over it later.
    It is white, but not shiny. It is hard, but does not chalk up, like a one part undercoater.
    I paint my decks with it. I do not coat them with an "enamel"
    Once you have an epoxy /wood boat, an advantage is that modern coatings are "correct",as opposed to a less durable conventional paint.Where as putting an epoxy coating on a carvel boat may not always be kosher. that make sense ?

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Cool, thanks. Looks like good stuff
    I have the hull interior wooded out to 3-6 inches above the waterline everywhere, as I said I'm just getting into the cracks and corners now.
    The original paint seems to be adhering really well on the sides.

    To use the Interlux 404/414 do I need to wood out the entire interior?

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Okay read the info, so not over existing paint. I was going to CPES the wood
    Were you imagining the Interlux primekote over the CPES?
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 11-09-2018 at 12:22 AM.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    The 404/414 can go over existing paint...insofar as it can work...it will not "lift" an old paint . So..one can use it like that.But complete stripping and priming with CPES , then 404/414 is BEST ,imo.
    Then there is "real world"...the paint on the above wl inside planking seems perfect. Then you can let it go!
    There ARE a hundred ways to do it right!

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Hmm ,thinking about it, local temperatures are starting to drop below 10 degrees which is the bottom limit for using the 404/414 or at least according to the spec sheet. I'm getting some cold weather CPES so I can use that down to -2 and it will be a while till temperatures start to head up again. So I have plenty of time to wood it out. It's the enclosed bow section in particular and anywhere I have to lie down and work over my head (under the decks) that I'm REALLY NOT looking forward to doing.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    In her new home for the winter and spring. Tarp is just in case resident critters drop bombs from above, probably not necessary.
    Floorboards floors etc stored in wall behind boat, mast lashed to the rafters, cabin roof underneath.

    And a laugh. My tests towing with my relatively new to me 2005 smart car cdi fortwo diesel. Just tried it up and down the alley and around the block till I get the lights wired in and the hole cut in the back panel but the car seemed to tow really well and braked fine at 50km. Once I get the lights wired I will try it on a slightly longer jaunt with some backroad inclines to simulate boat launch ramps.
    Annoyingly the local supplier of CPES is out of stock and supposedly the supplier in California is out of stock. Earliest time to maybe procure some is mid December.
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  20. #55
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    More laughs..actually the indomitable little diesel pulls the titmouse quite well, up hills and everything. Stops too!
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  21. #56
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Nice. And if the boat were just a little bit bigger, you could take the car along on a cruise.
    -Dave

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Nice boat, she has been well loved for most of her life. Does she have a name?

    Rabl mentions that there were two Titmouse designs, with the Second Edition (1958) Titmouse being quite a bit different than the First Edition (1947). Sounds like maybe he added the hinged cabin top with curtain and a hinged mast, and outfit with a galley, small WC and some oars. Also options to add a forward cabin bulkhead for secure storage or build a daysailer version without a cabin.

    The car you used is not much smaller than the car in Rabl's illustration (p 152)!

    Good luck with the resto. Other good resources for questions about compatibility of finish materials is the Jamestown Distributors Tech Team, and each paint manufacturer (Kirby, Interlux, Pettit, TotalBoat, etc...) has Tech help contact info on their websites.

    FMI: Rabl, S. S. 2013. Boatbuilding in your own backyard. [Brattleboro, Vt.]: Echo Point Books & Media.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    My boat is from the second edition which I bought recently. There's talk of a galley box ala the Picaroon, no talk of a WC that I remember, but talk of a bulkhead AND A daysailer version. He doesn't show any pictures or plans for bulkheads in the plans in the book. The last owner neglected the boat some resulting in the repairs and restoration I'll be doing. The owner prior to that took very good care of it for many years and sunk a bunch of money into in the mid 80s.

    He tells a story of hiring a surveyor when he bought the boat. The surveyor said it was in great condition so he bought it. Then he went sailing and it leaked like a sieve. He took it to some boat restorers in Seattle (Indigo boats?) and as they said the original fibreglass sheathing was coming off in 6' strips they redid the bottom.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    We have the Second Edition. The bulkhead is described as being under the forward end of the cabin top, provides extra support and can be enclosed to make a secure locker space for gear, at the expense of legroom.

    Rabl also descibes the V shaped tent that could be attached to the tilted cabin top, providing some headroom in the aft cabin and protection from rainy weather. I have recently come across pictures of several canvas tent walls on pop top UK boats, a great idea. Our Catalina 22 had a pop top but I didn't know at the time of any arrangements to enclose it with canvas.

    k

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    IN my 2nd edition. which I have in my lap right now it describes the bulkhead at after end of the cabin where it stiffened the cabin combing where it needs it the most. The cabin top is designed to be pop-top with a piano hinge at the forward edge of the roof and canvass triangle on the sides which allow the top to be raised yet still sealed. A cool idea.

    As far as the bulkhead goes hid description is a little vague. Also the center board trunk extends to the after end of the cabin.
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  26. #61
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Ah, see I went from incorrect memory, but I knew you could find it! Now go look for the W.C. reference

    I think it is good to not heat the storage, avoid drying things out too much. And I like keeping the basic finish scheme, painted hull with bright seats and a few other bits. The mast construction was interesting, boxed with spacers, plywood on two sides. Is yours like that?

    Still no name?

    Cheers
    Kent
    PS We are thinking of building the MIDGE from Rabl's book.




  27. #62
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    I got the boat in late September and I'm waiting for the right name to arrive. I think Titmouse in itself is a cute name but it would seem funny to name it what it is..or maybe not. When I though it was Port Orford cedar I was contemplating naming it Flu Flu which is a type of fluffy white birding arrow and also the name of our fluffy white cat. However it's probably Alaskan yellow cedar. No name as of yet. My mast is definitely boxed . To me it also looks like solid wood as there is no plywood edge grain visible and I'm reasonably wood savvy. ( I make traditional bows and work on my own guitars)
    Cool dinghy!

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    I've been toiling away with a variety of scrapers, stripper and one of those corner sander thingies doing all the detail work on wooding out the interior . Just up about 3" past the waterline so far. I might do the whole shebang but I'm giving myself a break from the really evil dusty sanding which may require me either moving the boat into the alley and or tarping around it in the garage. I'm about 3/4 done the detail work, heading into the covered bow.

    I have a couple of questions regarding the decking and a filled seam I found in the hull

    1 - Regarding the mystery decking on this boat:

    As i mentioned earlier it looks like there's some sort of rubbery goop, on top of some sort of mahogany veneer which looks like it's meant to look like laid decking.It was delaminating (bubbling up) in several places on the port side so I cut into it. the mahogany that stuck to the goop had grain going fore and aft, the layer beneath has grain going port to starboard. at right angles to the upper layer. the layer below is also delaminating some. below that I suspect there is some sort of standard 14" plywood (fir likely whether marine or not is anybodies guess). Interestingly, what appears to be faux laid decking would also seem to be following the curvature of the boat. the 'decking is delaminating, not in strips but in sections that go across 'strips', leading me to believe further that it is faux laid decking.

    Here are 3 pictures. The first showing a piece of the upper laminate lifted and folded to the side, the next showing the curvature and the 3rd showing the grain of the wood un the underside of the deck in the same location. nothing seems to be rotted, just delaminating.

    The final picture shows a point where the flat bottom meets the strip planked sides right at the last frame before the end of the centerboard moving towards the bow. I see this hard brown substance in many areas, under frames, in seams a bit, I'm not sure if it's epoxy, fiberglass resin or something else. It's very hard and chips out like glass, or a hard resin. As I was scraping near this limber hole a big piece chipped out of the crack it was obviously filling.

    My question is, Can I just CPES or seal right over this stuff After I clean and refill that crack) and how through does the paint, etc. removal have to be. I think I'm at at least 99.9% if not more. The paint in fastener holes has me a little stumped though.

    Still pondering Wizbang's crack and cupped board suggestions, The sheathing and epoxy on the outside of hull over the cupped board are actually intact with no cracks showing so I'm leary of cutting through the sheathing. Would I need to patch it or will just epoxying the new seams do the job and then paint.
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  29. #64
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    I cut into the decking overlay using an olfa knife, cut out a small section and voila, there's the fir ply I can see from the inside. It would seem somebody applied a plywood laminate which interesting has faux seams in it that would seem(sorry) to follow the curvature of the deck. The overlay is about 1/8" thick with the seams being at most 1/16" deep.

    Is there a product you can buy with curved sections ?, either that or somebody spent some time cutting faux seems into the mahogany overlay.
    Any ideas as to any approach. Mine would be to cut out the bad sections, infill with similar thickness ply epoxied in and then see if I can find some similar rubberized goop to put on top (like house deck coat)
    Either that or pull the lot and start over the only thing

    Any idears?

    Detailing of the already wooded part continuing, almost done.
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  30. #65
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Pull the lot out. It really won't be more work, and the end result will be far better than a patch job.
    -Dave

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Do you mean the entire deck?

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    As i mentioned earlier it looks like there's some sort of rubbery goop, on top of some sort of mahogany veneer which looks like it's meant to look like laid decking.It was delaminating (bubbling up) in several places on the port side so I cut into it. the mahogany that stuck to the goop had grain going fore and aft, the layer beneath has grain going port to starboard. at right angles to the upper layer. the layer below is also delaminating some. below that I suspect there is some sort of standard 14" plywood (fir likely whether marine or not is anybodies guess). Interestingly, what appears to be faux laid decking would also seem to be following the curvature of the boat. the 'decking is delaminating, not in strips but in sections that go across 'strips', leading me to believe further that it is faux laid decking.
    In my experience, if something has been bodged together like this, and it's starting to come apart in one area, it's probably not too far away from coming apart in other places, too. I'm not suggesting removing the entire deck, but perhaps the two top layers that don't appear to be solidly bonded to what appears to be the original ply decking.
    -Dave

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    That makes sense. It's only the one layer really with rubbery deck goop on top (the same stuff was applied to the cabin roof)
    This would've been applied either in the 80s or a good 10 years before that. My only concerned would be encountering an arae that was well bonded and having it take up the original deck with it.
    Also I believe the sheathing carries right up flush to the top of the deck as it now is, thus requiring cutting into it.

    Any suggestions as to what i replace it with?

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    I would put down a layer of 6 oz fiberglass cloth set in epoxy. It would be easy to first fill any irregularities in the ply. Not sure about the deck edge. Maybe wrap the cloth over it a bit and cover with a rubrail???
    -Dave

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    I would second what WOX suggests. A nice rail wont go amiss, does not need to be too heavy.

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