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Thread: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

  1. #1
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    Default Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Here's some current pictures of this boat I purchased last week
    the previous owner had it sitting under an inadequately sized tarp for a winter so it now needs work.
    Here's what it looked like previously;
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-Rabl-Titmouse
    Hull is supposedly covered with dynel and painted with awl grip
    There is a chip out of the paint (smaller than a dime) on the starboard side and I can see whitish cloth beneath. Paint looks to be almost 1/16" thick!
    Cedar stripped, center bottom board some sort of hardwoodm possible oak, the ones on either side would seem to be a tight grained softwood. (fir?)
    frames are mahogany or teak as are the benches and cabin sides
    decks are 1/4" ply (I believe)
    centerboard trunk would seem to be teak or mahogany as is the tabernacle
    Floor timbers are supposed to be alaskan yellow cedar and I would think the floor boards maybe are too because whilst they are the colour of teak the grain looks more like a softwood.


    - It now needs overall drying out so that repairs can be made.
    -some cracks in the paint and or dynel fixed ion the flat par of the bottom (maybe half a dozen 6-14" long)
    - inside sanded , inspected, repaired where necessary and resealed (epoxy?)
    - brightworrk sanded, repaired and refinished
    - starboard side deck possible dynel and or ply delamination inspected and repaired (bubbling in deck) seems solid from beneath but needs further examination)
    - crack in transom needs repairing
    - mast needs to dry out (water inside) It is currently inside on an angle with some small holes drilled at one end)
    Then likely taking of the side that is already separating allowing better internal inspection and if still good proper reassembly.
    - cabin top needs some repair/modification
    -There are other sundry small task to attend to to

    Today I cleaned it out and took some pictures. The floorboard and timbers are out of the boat
    The mast shown is a spare aluminium one I have that I'm basically using as a ridgepole for a heavy duty tarp while the proper mast is inside drying out
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 10-07-2018 at 02:52 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    More pictures showing the interior some closeups of problem areas
    crack in the transom and one of the cracks in the bottom (though this photo makes this look more extreme, it really only has a very slight lip)
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    some more closeups and pictures of the spars and rudder/tiller . Unfortunately the picture showing detail of the mast water damage is missing. It's a rectangular hollow mast. One side has born the brunt of the moisture and has lost most of it's finish and the joint connecting it to the other sides on both edges is opening up in many places. I will get more pictures.

    Anyone have any insight into these repairs etc. ?
    I don't know if the interior is encapsulated. It seems to me that if the outside is the inside should be too

    After attending to the necessary repairs I will be looking at:

    - Probably adding side benches and maybe shortening the fore aft depth of the rear bench some.

    - Bowsprit and larger jib

    - possible renos to the pop top (maybe adding an off center sliding companionway hatch)

    -if needed adding some surface area to the rear of the rudder
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 10-07-2018 at 10:21 AM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    The missing pictures of the mast seam separation which is along both sides of the seam for about 60% of the mast's length and the cabin corner which shows some of the brightwork seams opening up .
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    After a week of drying out in the clement weather we've been having things are definitely drier inside.
    So I had fun measuring things Mast and boom etc.)and did some poking around and a bit of sanding and scraping of the interior.
    Also got Sam Rabl's Boat Building in the backyard this week (second edition) and it was neat to see specs, bigger drawings and have the build process explained.
    Might give me some insight into repair.
    So the Good the bad and the ugly.
    I'll start with the Ugly
    So I cut into the bubbles on the port side of the deck and it's the mahogany ply decking delaminating (almost entirely just the top layer which was lifted with the coating). It was interesting to also see that the beige paint on the deck would seem to be the same rubbery stuff as used on my parents back porch.... I don't think I'm too keen on that idea. the top of the cabin roof is painted in the same stuff. Clearly have to do some replacing/repairing of decking. It doesn't look to be rotted in anyway, just wet and delaminating. And it's only one section. I thought, as I cut into it about the possibility of regluing the laminate in the one section, either with a needle or more carefully cutting it out, letting it dry and then regluing and sealing....which might've been the thing to do. However if I don't want to replace a chunk of the entire deck ply I could always wait till I'm sure it had dried out , cut it nice and square and epoxy in a very thin laminate, then aply more deck goop overtop... Humourously I have some left over from when my parents back deck was done. I guess it did hold up for some 30 odd years, however it only took a year in the weather to become a problem.

    Any opinions ?? One thing about that rubbery decking is that it really seems to have bonded with the wood of the decking well.

    - the bad - the extent of the interior sanding and the fact that I should look into replacing the fasteners for the mahogany cabin sides and comings as well as the pugs for the screws. (not so bad though, Can do the sanding in short bits over the winter)
    I'm working 55 hour weeks right now so only a few hours every weekend for now.

    -The good. The wood all seems to be in decent shape (no rot so far)
    - Threw together a new mast crutch together on half my lunch break at work .The old one had no tang to fit into the slot in the seat, was heavy and VERY unstable. This one is much more stable, lighter and will do the trick for now till I make something pretty.
    I have a fan in the boat and intend to leave it running for a few days to improve the airflow.

    Interestingly the strip planking material doesn't look like red cedar to me, maybe it's yellow cedar or fir.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 10-14-2018 at 12:13 AM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    "All by myyyyseeelllf, I have a thread aaaalllll byyyy myyy selllllf...."

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    [QUOTE=Toxophilite;5697360]"All by myyyyseeelllf, I have a thread aaaalllll byyyy myyy selllllf...."[/QUOT

    No one is looking... I was all by myself...

    I hope that’s the reference.

    Watching with interest. It’s long been a favorite imaginary boat, you know? I’ve no advice, but I’m anxious to hear how she is when you’re able to use her.

    Keep it up. Baby steps every day.

    Peace,
    Robert

    ETA, Nope, the long words just made sense. I had the emphasis on the wrong syllables and words. Now I’m really laughing, at my dumbness, and your cleverness!

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Thanks , it was my musical reference ala Eric Carmen...(I knew the song but I had to look up who did it)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3j_fdSpkmE

    Anyway some more progfress
    Sanding the paint of the inside. I could probably get away with a scrape and cursory sand, then more paint ,but I much prefer to get a clear idea as to how the woods doing on this almost 50 year old boat.
    Also it might be night to have the interior epoxied clear, durable and lovely.
    Any opinions on that , the work is do-able.

    The deck delamination on the port side looks like cutting it out, letting it dry and then filling with epoxy/fiberglass resin and micro bubbles might be an idea, then more deck goof to finish the job to get sailing. It really is only a mm or 2 of laminate that has separated so one could also epoxy in a very thin laminate it one wanted to keep with wood.

    There is one of the bottom boards (looks like the same wood as the strip planking which is clearly NOT red cedar, port orford..(the boat certainly has a sweet smell and from making arrows I know port orford is DIVINe smelling) alaskan yellow?)) that is cupping quite a bit, I'll include a picture, does it for a few feet starting at the centerboard trunk and towards the stern

    The splits in the bottom seem to be from the bottom planks cracking and then splitting the dynel as suspected. I think thinned epoxy in the crack from the inside. the area around the split on the outside, cut/ ground off, then patched , faired etc.

    The transom would seem to be a solid piece of mahogany. It 's kind of a shame it's painted blue!!
    I'd like to see the hull white with a bright transom

    If the hull paint really is awl grip is their anything that can be painted over it?

    pictures
    -more bottom sanding
    - stern under seats sanded some (bench has been removed to faciiltate sanding)
    -cupped board
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    It looks to me like a planked deck - covered with - what you are peeling up - a canvas covering.

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Hmm. I'm pretty sure it's plywood. From the underside it's one piece, no planks or seams and it looks like mahogany ply, probably the good stuff.
    I too was wondering about, what looked like seams, on the top though.
    However the grain of the wood exposed actually ran at right angles to the grain of the thin layer that adhered to the bottom of the 'coating' that pulled up (which was goop and a very thin layer of mahogany) The coating hadn't separated from the wood, the wood had separated from itself.
    Also the stuff pulled off doesn't have a corresponding 'seam' .There is no sign of canvas or any other cloth in the coating. (dynel what have you) I was actually kind of surprised as I had assumed it was dynel covered as the hull is. But no, just a few mm of rubber beige stuff. I'll get a picture of the edge or a peeled up piece to illustrate but it won't be till next sunday. I'd love it if it were a planked deck, I'd be tickled. The original plans were for a planked deck done in the same fashion as the hull. Happily the ply deck, other than this one spot seems to be very solid.
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 10-14-2018 at 10:19 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Oh just confirmed the boat is Port Orford Cedar (where it isn't teak and or mahogany)
    As I exposed the wood on the boat there was a very beautiful smell that seemed familiar and I wondered about it.

    As my forum name would suggest I'm an archery enthusiast, a bowyer and fletcher (I made my own traditional wooden bows and arrows) I just found a broken arrow, broke off a splinter and enjoyed the exact same heavenly smell. Bowyers speculate that even though Port Orford cedar isn't the best arrow wood, it's probably so popular because it smells so great.
    hmm too bad I couldn't preserve that smell.

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    Post Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Here are the pictures I found on the internet of the drawings from the book. I have the book now too.

    I got given a full dimension 5' 2 x 8 of clear quarter sawn fir from work for free to make a bowsprit out of when I get to that stage.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    So I've been reading Jim Trefehten's book Wooden boat renovation. I like some of his sensibilities and ideas.

    It left me with some questions about repairs on my Titmouse.

    -My plan is to dry the boat out well (I might've found some garage storage) repair the outer sheathing where it is cracked and strip the inside of the hull and seal it with epoxy.
    Essentially making the boat less inclined to absorb any water in the future and hopefully dimensionally stable.

    To do so I have to repair the cracks in the bottom boards(I know of at least 2, not really open at all but clearly visible) and likely the one cupped cedar bottom plank if possible(in the pictures above)

    -I was wondering at the best method to do so? , considering the boat will hopefully be sheathed and sealed inside and out

    - Also the interior of the hull. I was going to epoxy seal it . Then maybe finish it bright (with epoxy or paint it, any opinions on taht. is an epoxy bright finish as durable as paint over epoxy. The wood is pretty , it seems a shame to cover it up, but ease of maintenance is important too.


    - The boat has some bright work up top (cabin sides and combings.)
    What do people think of sealing with epoxy first (using the slower 'clear' hardener) and then varnishing overtop of that ?(This was in Jim's book)

    Thanks I got some excellent advice on hull paint (thanks)
    And there is some question whether dynel was actually used as the sheathing due to the tightness of the weave seen in my pictures))
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 10-21-2018 at 01:38 PM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Any takers on the above questions?

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Some pictures of work so far and problem areas to hopefully entice some , insight, advice and interaction
    More sanding has been done revealing more bottom wood and the lovely mahogany transom
    Remainder of rear bench removed to facilitate sanding

    1. stern crack (port side) bottom crack outside towards stern
    2. same towards bow (note where sharpy line crosses crack in both pictures)
    3. stern crack inside entire crack
    4. same between rear frame and batten (paint in crack)
    5 same in front of rear frame
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 10-21-2018 at 09:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    More pictures of other cracks outside and corresponding areas inside, Inner cracks not evident.

    1 shorter crack (2) just aft of the centerboard trunk, port side
    2 longer crack (3)adjacent to the centerboard trunk port side
    3 area inside showing are over crack 2 and most of crack 3
    4 area adjacent to centerboard trunk over crack 3
    5 area of deck showing plywood laminate grain
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 10-22-2018 at 06:49 AM. Reason: the other starboard...larboard...or port!

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Last pictures showing work so far
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Nice project. As far as sealing it all up in epoxy, this approach often doesn't end well. The problem is that if moisture does get into the wood, it never comes out again. And then the rotting begins. It's basically and all-or-nothing proposition. Restore the boat as designed and let the wood breathe, or turn it into a wood/glass sandwich construction. The latter would be very strong, but also add more weight than might be advisable and would likely create other issues you don't want to deal with. I'd stick with Rabl's plan, I believe he knew what he was doing.

    Some of those "cracks" on the outside look like they could be the covering, whatever was used, cracking under the stress of the wet and expanding wood. Do the cracks all extend into the planking? Or is it just the cloth? This happens quite often.

    Keep at it. Looks like you're doing a thorough job.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Thanks for the response.

    The cracks in the sheathing seem to be all in the one board.
    The crack closer to the stern goes right through with an easily visible crack corresponding on the inside.
    The 2 cracks moving forward don't seem to have corresponding cracks on the inside.

    In the book it doesn't go too much in what sort of coatings one should use
    If I look here it would seem to suggest that a linseed oil based coating is one of the few that allows the interior to 'breathe' (release water vapour)
    http://hvartial.kapsi.fi/wood/wood5.htm
    And that most paints do not allow this
    There is of course much debate on this:
    Many people think that a boat that is encapsulated on the outside and not to some extant on the inside will suffer undue stress due to uneven expanding and contracting of the wood when moisture is absorbed as would seem to be the case in this instance.
    There is a corresponding board on the starboard side that is quite cupped for a few feet probably as a result of uneven drying.

    Could this be avoided by insuring the boat is kept dry inside at all times or at least most of the time?
    It is a trailer sailor and will be dry stored for most of it's life.
    How much weight would sealing the interior with epoxy add to the boat I wonder?

    Is the amount of paint removal I'm getting into too crazy?

    At least the most recent interior paint (the grey) is hanging off in many places and lifting in others, it's slightly bubbled almost everywhere
    Some places where it scrapes off easily , the previous white interior paint underneath looks discoloured or dirty like there was poor prep and or maybe mold.
    The original white paint (maybe primer) seems to adhere better but even it is chipping off in large sections in some areas.

    It seemed best to get it off and allow things to dry out thoroughly and allow a good inspection of the bottom at least.

    Yes? No?

    Maybe a good compromise on the interior would be to finish the mahogany/teak frames bright and paint the inside of the hull. Most of the bottom is going to be under the floors most of the time anyway.
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 10-22-2018 at 07:06 AM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Port Orford Cedar is one of the most difficult woods to get paint to stick to.
    The oilish stuff in the wood that causes this also makes it VERY rot resistant.
    So, What I think has happened is the conventional paint on the inside has let go in many places.Thus, water gets under the paint and into the wood, leading to extra swelling and contracting.
    We see cupping AND checking.
    One of my original (I forget the word...person who helps/influences one when younger), "guys" , Heine Dole, had a POC planked vessel. He "washed" any bare wood down with "white gas/Coleman Fuel" for decades. By n BY, he got older and I did all the maintenance on Evening Star. One year I disc sanded the POC transom and plank ends. I primed the POC with CPES. After a few years he told me it was the first time he EVER saw paint stay on those POC plank end grains. So There.

    Anyway, I'm a big fan of CPES where it makes sense, and this is the perfect place for it.
    To repair the checks AND the cupping, I'd use the same simple technique.
    Set a skilsaw blade to the depth of the plank and kerf out whatever is in the check and re fill them with 403 thickened epoxy.
    For the cupped plank, saw a kery or three into the wide plank and fill the kerfs with 403 thickened epoxy. Don't be shy or timid with the kerfs.
    Oh, Take that handle off the polisher. That is for polishing a car, not sanding yer boat

    bruce

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    That 6inch velcro backer that comes with the Makita is a nice enough pad, but there are many aftermarket options that can make the inside paint removal faster and easier.
    I take old 8 inch pads and cut them down to smaller sizes. You can but small semi stiff velcro backers down to 3 inches.
    And of course a triangle scraper with a small file at hand.

    I mentioned somewhere the weave looks too tight for dynel. It cold be the other one,Xylole, which is confused with Dynel often , even by sellers. Xylole has a tighter weave. They are made of different cloth, but behave and function almost exactly the same.
    Have yo gotten any itches from it yet?That'd be a tell tale.

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Mentor!
    Or Sensai!
    Cool I like that advice and I will carry on as I am with the sanding
    I like the thicker pad. I have the narrower one and it's pretty aggressive, I use my uint at around 3 on the speed and go easy. It's a cheaper model than the makita but seems to do the trick.
    I haven't dug into the cracks on the bottom yet as I was mostly working on the inside. next time I'm over there I'll have a better look

    As far as CPES goes, Have you tries the S1 sealer that System 3 makes. It seems to be the same sort of thing
    https://buyindustrial.ca/ocart/index...1-Epoxy-Sealer
    Anyone done a comparison with the smiths
    In this application it's mainly as an undercoat/primer right?
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 10-23-2018 at 08:02 PM.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    I recon ,call System Three and ask em .
    When they mention that it can be pigmented... this makes me wonder if it's the same as Smiths.
    Eighty bux a quart... that's not cheaper than smiths, is it? (I'm not really poor anymore, I have forgotten what things cost , and have learned better than to economise on materials)
    When I mention "CPES", I am def speaking of "Smiths Restore It".

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Thanks
    I was just trying to find someone who has Smiths up here
    I'm sure it can be found it's just a matter of where.
    Found a guy
    https://www.epoxywoodrestoration.ca/
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 10-24-2018 at 12:13 AM. Reason: corporate takeover

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    As far as cutting kerfs in the planks goes I guess it'd have to be from the outside. On the cracked side the hull sheathing is already split corresponding to the crack.
    The sheathing is still intact on the cupped board side. I guess repairing the sheathing is likely the easiest part anyway.
    I'll continue with the sanding as the boat dries more, explore the cracks in the sheathing a little bit more to determine the material used to sheath. I'll hopefully be moving the boat to a dry (but unheated) garage within the next few weeks.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Whatever the fabric, FG/Dynel/Xylole...we assume it's epoxy resin,thus, repair of sheathing is "easy".
    A light sheathing on the outside only is not for strength, but waterproofing,(both the bilge and the planking itself) and a bit of abrasion resistance.
    r.e. the kerfs. Consider that 3 ,2 inch planks are more stable than one six inch plank.This is what adding kerfs will do, virtually making narrower bottom planks.
    Strip planking is very stable,for instance.

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    A heat gun and scraper will peel cloth right off wood...

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    I have an unusual question. My friend is going to let me keep my boat in her garage over the winter and do some work on it there for token amount of rent. She is very cool, laid back and down to earth.

    I was trying to get all the major nasty sanding done before I moved it there but I was thinking of applying the CPES and painting it there.

    The thing is is that she keeps the hay for her horses in 1/3 of the garage. There is a wall between the two areas but it doesn't extend to the ceiling and ends a few feet before the garage door, so basically connected.

    I can certainly tarp up her hay(as she suggested, and or tarp tightly around the boat while I do any further sanding but I was wondering about her hay taking up any toxic/bad smells from the various wonderful glues and paints I'll be using. I can also open the garage doors while doing those things which would be better for me but I can't leave them open as the paint/epoxy dries

    Anyone have any insight/experience about this?

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Oh, CPES is one of the top three STINKIEST things I've ever used .
    (Interlux 3333N solvent and Kriol brand penetrating oil).
    So, It WILL stink up the whole house.
    But she still on the trailer? can you wheel her outside?
    Or, wait till the spring to apply it?

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    If you just want thinned epoxy, you can thin it with rubbing alcohol, which won't smell nearly as bad as the thinners used in CPES. Don't get thinned epoxy on your hands, it's likely to make you sensitive to epoxy.

    Or, you could just use regular epoxy and work it into the wood with a plastic scraper, scraping as much as possible off the surface. That's what I've come to prefer to CPES.

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    The boat will be on a trailer and happily the garage is separated from the house by an entire yard.
    I just don't want to make her hay reek so the horse don't like it.

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    I found this quote from Smith (Of Smith's CPES) which would seem to suggest taht system 3's S-1 Sealer would actually be rebranded CPES as it says 'Clear penetrating epoxy sealer' right on the label.
    I'm going to ask them

    It is sold in Australia under the Senseal name, in Europe under the
    Lignu name, in the U. S. under my own Smith & Co. Clear Penetrating
    Epoxy Sealer and MultiWoodPrime names, as well as by some other
    distributors under their labels, but if it says Clear Penetrating
    Epoxy Sealer on the label, it's the genuine stuff because that's my
    trademark name.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Thinned epoxy is not CPES

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Thinned epoxy is not CPES
    Which is why I asked if that's what he wanted.

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    Default Re: Rabl Titmouse Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxophilite View Post
    The boat will be on a trailer and happily the garage is separated from the house by an entire yard.
    I just don't want to make her hay reek so the horse don't like it.
    I'd tack up some plastic from rafters to floor. Put bricks or something along the bottom if it can't be nailed down. You want the division as airtight as possible -- and not just to keep the hay fresh. Stables, piles of hay and all that farm stuff produce prodigious amounts of dust. It will mess with your finish!
    -Dave

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