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Thread: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    . . . they admit that Hillary Clinton was a huge mistake and a horrible candidate. Trump will win a second term unless the Democratic Party exposes their flawed judgement and apologizes. You want votes, clean up the spilt milk.
    I don't get it. Redemption? Meaning what, and who gives a S?

    This is how it stacks up: the Republicans picked Trump, with all that implies. Clinton was the most likely to defeat it. What made nominating her a mistake? Apologize to whom, for what?

    Her rivals made it their priority to attack her rather than Trump, with all that implies, and it sounds like you're still doing it.

    This is a war between two cultures. Who comes to lead or symbolize them is not the essence of the situation.

    Doris Kearns Goodwin says on Bill Maher, "We can't call them traitors, we need a President like Lincoln who has the empathy blah blah blah blah blah BARF GAG ME WITH A SPOON.

    Will you not face the situation that confronts you? You want to talk about "redemption"? Corey Booker the twit, "I've never been so shocked and distraught." Can you imagine a soldier stopping in mid-battle to say that? He'd get a rifle butt in the chops.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
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  2. #72
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    Actually that was the Repugnicans who foisted the deal onto Obama.

    Almost everything wrong with your nation is wrong because of the Repugnicans. They're the ones lighting the fires and then calling the fire brigade to come put it out for them. Friggin' Nazis to a tee.
    I don't recall history being as you see it with respect to the ACA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    You're also missing a fundamental point in that lots and lots (millions in fact) of the poor of the USA suddenly had actual health insurance meaning they could afford to do things like get life saving treatments, even if their out of pocket expenses were slightly increased.
    I am sure both of you see it that way. Many people who can vote are young and healthy and see no need to pay for health insurance. They may or may not be correct in their belief. But it is their belief. It was their votes that elected Trump.

    I dislike the current administration. It is certainly not moving the country in the direction I would like. But the Democrats are not going to regain control of the government until the Republican voters who are more rural, poorer, and ... are willing to vote for them.
    Life is complex.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I don't get it. Redemption? Meaning what, and who gives a S?

    This is how it stacks up: the Republicans picked Trump, with all that implies. Clinton was the most likely to defeat it. What made nominating her a mistake? Apologize to whom, for what?

    Her rivals made it their priority to attack her rather than Trump, with all that implies, and it sounds like you're still doing it.

    This is a war between two cultures. Who comes to lead or symbolize them is not the essence of the situation.

    Doris Kearns Goodwin says on Bill Maher, "We can't call them traitors, we need a President like Lincoln who has the empathy blah blah blah blah blah BARF GAG ME WITH A SPOON.

    Will you not face the situation that confronts you? You want to talk about "redemption"? Corey Booker the twit, "I've never been so shocked and distraught." Can you imagine a soldier stopping in mid-battle to say that? He'd get a rifle butt in the chops.
    Pssst . . . she lost. To Trump. I voted for her. I kept my mouth shut about any criticism of her after the primary, most of us did. She was sub-par. She coulden't play the game. She lost. Psssst, she lost.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    This meme about how 'politicians 'flip-flop' and that's a BAD thing' is deeply and tragically flawed.

    A politician is SUPPOSED to flip-flop at the behest of her electorate.
    And then get it done. Usually requires a certain amount of . . . resolution, which is supported by experience, including an existing political stature i.e. a power base.

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    To all the Berniacs I say GROW UP!!!
    Before it's too late.
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  5. #75
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Pssst . . . she lost. To Trump. I voted for her. I kept my mouth shut about any criticism of her after the primary, most of us did. She was sub-par. She coulden't play the game. She lost. Psssst, she lost.
    Your argument supports voting or not, that was the trouble.

    A general loses a battle because he's a dope.
    A general loses a battle because the troops desert.

    It is, in all but the most superficial contexts, not the same thing.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
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  6. #76
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Sad.
    Yes, you are. I don't think the Democrats need to go to the point Republicans have. Part of their appeal i that they still believe in democratic norm.

    But the fact that you seem to hold a grudge against the Democrats because Obama wasn't the Green Lantern and couldn't fix everything, and because they nominated the candidate that got the most votes in the primaries is just weak. What were they supposed to do, nominate Bernie even though he didn't get as many votes?

    That' the kind of attitude that Republicans love to see in liberals. Congratulations, you're doing their work for them.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Your argument supports voting or not, that was the trouble.

    A general loses a battle because he's a dope.
    A general loses a battle because the troops desert.

    It is, in all but the most superficial contexts, not the same thing.
    Dude, she sucked, so bad that even the unwashed masses didn't buy her shtick. But yeah, keep playing by the same old tired rules . . . aaaaaand, keep losing.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Yes, you are. I don't think the Democrats need to go to the point Republicans have. Part of their appeal i that they still believe in democratic norm.

    But the fact that you seem to hold a grudge against the Democrats because Obama wasn't the Green Lantern and couldn't fix everything, and because they nominated the candidate that got the most votes in the primaries is just weak. What were they supposed to do, nominate Bernie even though he didn't get as many votes?

    That' the kind of attitude that Republicans love to see in liberals. Congratulations, you're doing their work for them.
    Lol, nope, by all account's from them, you are. I did not expect the delegates to nominate Bernie even though he didn't get the votes. I blame the electorate, you (if you voted for her in the primaries), for being so blind and short sighted as to vote for the most hated candidate in, at least, recent history . . . that list includes Trump by the way, because she lost, to him . . . she lost.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    The Berniacs abdicated that responsibility and voted for the Balrog.

    Then they have the brass to complain that their village has been laid waste.
    This is a simplistic analysis.

    A more complete picture shows:

    Only 12% of all Sanders voters (from the primary) voted for Trump in the election.

    Of that 12%, only 45% of them were Democrats or "leaned" Democratic.

    So we're talking, what, maybe 5% of all Sanders voters who might have been expected to vote for the Democratic candidate voted for Trump instead.

    And the real kicker: That 5% would NOT have been enough votes to win Michigan, Wisconsin, or Pennsylvania.

    Here's the SOURCE for all of the above analysis.

    So, your assumption (shared by many posters on this thread) is incorrect. The Democratic voters who voted for Trump even though they supported Sanders (including those who only "lean" Democractic) most emphatically did NOT cause Clinton to lose. She would have lost anyway, even WITH their votes. The people that voted for Trump (even after supporting Sanders) already tended toward the Republican side.

    However, the reverse is NOT true. In other words, Sanders voters did not cost Clinton the election. But Clinton voters DID cost Sanders the election.

    Tom
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  10. #80
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Just shows us that the republicans don't have a lock on stupidity.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Just shows us that the republicans don't have a lock on stupidity.
    Did you just call Ozna stupid . . . lol!!
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    This is a simplistic analysis.

    A more complete picture shows:

    Only 12% of all Sanders voters (from the primary) voted for Trump in the election.

    Of that 12%, only 45% of them were Democrats or "leaned" Democratic.

    So we're talking, what, maybe 5% of all Sanders voters who might have been expected to vote for the Democratic candidate voted for Trump instead.

    And the real kicker: That 5% would NOT have been enough votes to win Michigan, Wisconsin, or Pennsylvania.

    Here's the SOURCE for all of the above analysis.

    So, your assumption (shared by many posters on this thread) is incorrect. The Democratic voters who voted for Trump even though they supported Sanders (including those who only "lean" Democractic) most emphatically did NOT cause Clinton to lose. She would have lost anyway, even WITH their votes. The people that voted for Trump (even after supporting Sanders) already tended toward the Republican side.

    However, the reverse is NOT true. In other words, Sanders voters did not cost Clinton the election. But Clinton voters DID cost Sanders the election.

    Tom
    Thanks for the source.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Your argument supports voting or not, that was the trouble.

    A general loses a battle because he's a dope.
    A general loses a battle because the troops desert.

    It is, in all but the most superficial contexts, not the same thing.
    You're ignoring the probability of a cause-effect relationship between the two:

    A general's strategy is ineffective.
    His troops see that his strategy is ineffective, and desert.
    He loses the battle.

    (I wouldn't say Clinton is a dope by any means).

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    The Sanders voters who didn't vote at all in the general, did the study address the impact of that?
    I posted a link. You could click it.

    But that's a good question. How do you measure that? What I see is Clinton supporters wanting to blame Sanders supporters for her loss. What I am not seeing is any evidence that it's true.

    Tom
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  15. #85
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    But this is also interesting (from the same source):

    For example, Schaffner tells NPR that around 12 percent of Republican primary voters (including 34 percent of Ohio Gov. John Kasich voters and 11 percent of Florida Sen. Marco Rubio voters) ended up voting for Clinton. And according to one 2008 study, around 25 percent of Clinton primary voters in that election ended up voting for Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., in the general. (In addition, the data showed 13 percent of McCain primary voters ended up voting for Obama, and 9 percent of Obama voters ended up voting for McCain — perhaps signaling something that swayed voters between primaries and the general election, or some amount of error in the data, or both.)
    All of that said, one other figure that stuck out to Schaffner: Compared with those numbers above, Clinton 2016 voters were remarkably loyal — "I found basically no Clinton primary voters who voted for Trump," he told NPR in an email.
    Tom
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  16. #86
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    You're ignoring the probability of a cause-effect relationship between the two:

    A general's strategy is ineffective.
    His troops see that his strategy is ineffective, and desert.
    He loses the battle.

    (I wouldn't say Clinton is a dope by any means).

    Tom
    Maybe.

    In the analogy, they desert because they believe it's the only way to save their A from pointless sacrifice. Or it's a rationalization of cowardice. In the actual situation, as I see it, there was little to sacrifice, and deserting wasn't the only option.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    In the analogy, they desert because they believe it's the only way to save their A from pointless sacrifice. Or it's a rationalization of cowardice. In the actual situation, as I see it, there was little to sacrifice, and deserting wasn't the only option.
    In your analogy, they desert. In reality, they didn't. See post #98.

    Again, I see Clinton supporters trying to blame Sanders supporters for her loss. I see no credible evidence to agree.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    In your analogy, they desert. In reality, they didn't. See post #98.

    Again, I see Clinton supporters trying to blame Sanders supporters for her loss. I see no credible evidence to agree.

    Tom
    Tell it to Mike.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Just shows us that the republicans don't have a lock on stupidity.
    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Did you just call Ozna stupid . . . lol!!
    Hardly, I was referring to those that are too dumb to know when staying united is the only way forward. Like a labor union it works for the benefit of the whole, not for an individual.

    The election is over. Regardless of how, the democratic party was successfully divided, and conquered.
    Those that won't or can't learn this will always fail.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    In the actual situation, as I see it, there was little to sacrifice
    I think that's short-sighted. Many of us supported Bernie because we value an idealistic approach, one that inspires. One that considers progressive goals FIRST, and only later worries about the practicality of how to reach those goals.

    If you "pragmatically" decide pre-emptively that progressive goals are unachievable, then Clinton was the logical choice. There is no doubt she was by far a better alternative than Trump.

    But choosing her as a FIRST choice is a betrayal of idealism. It is, in effect, a cynical move to some degree. It is deciding, pre-emptively, that this is the best we can hope for. And that believing more is possible is naive.

    Do you really want to sacrifice all that? Wouldn't it be better to harness that progressive idealism, support it, encourage it, use it to reach out to young people and get them to vote and be involved? Why not run a candidate that at least AIMS for progressive ideals? It may be they are not all practical.

    Then again, it wasn't at all practical for India to gain independence. Or for apartheid to end. Or for women to get the vote. Yet all these things happened--as they never WOULD have had no one aimed that high.

    Tom
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  21. #91
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Hardly, I was referring to those that are too dumb to know when staying united is the only way forward. Like a labor union it works for the benefit of the whole, not for an individual.

    The election is over. Regardless of how, the democratic party was successfully divided, and conquered.
    Those that won't or can't learn this will always fail.
    Your conclusions run contrary to fact. The division of the Democratic party was NOT what caused Clinton to lose. The numbers on that are quite clear. Re-read post #91 and you'll see why.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I think that's short-sighted. Many of us supported Bernie because we value an idealistic approach, one that inspires. One that considers progressive goals FIRST, and only later worries about the practicality of how to reach those goals.

    If you "pragmatically" decide pre-emptively that progressive goals are unachievable, then Clinton was the logical choice. There is no doubt she was by far a better alternative than Trump.

    But choosing her as a FIRST choice is a betrayal of idealism. It is, in effect, a cynical move to some degree. It is deciding, pre-emptively, that this is the best we can hope for. And that believing more is possible is naive.

    Do you really want to sacrifice all that? Wouldn't it be better to harness that progressive idealism, support it, encourage it, use it to reach out to young people and get them to vote and be involved? Why not run a candidate that at least AIMS for progressive ideals? It may be they are not all practical.

    Then again, it wasn't at all practical for India to gain independence. Or for apartheid to end. Or for women to get the vote. Yet all these things happened--as they never WOULD have had no one aimed that high.

    Tom
    Thus Trump.

    Electoral politics means that the idealists lose.

    The only way forward was to elect Hillary and then hold her feet to the fire.

    Now the Berniacs complain that Trump won.

    MORONS.
    Rattling the teacups.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    She lost me i the first 60 seconds. What else do I need to know besides the fact that she's delusional and dangerous.
    Nah, she’s on the hot crazy matrix. Mad Max and the Nurse.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Tell it to Mike.
    Oz,

    I admire your stance on politics, and your integrity and passion. But you were the one to claim this:

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    The Berniacs abdicated that responsibility and voted for the Balrog.
    I showed you why I think that's the wrong conclusion. If my reasoning is faulty, show me why. If it's not, then you'll need to re-think your own position on this issue.

    Or ignore the refutation and start voting Republican, I guess. You'd fit right in if that's the route you choose.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Your conclusions run contrary to fact. The division of the Democratic party was NOT what caused Clinton to lose. The numbers on that are quite clear. Re-read post #91 and you'll see why.

    Tom
    Says the man from Wisconsin, arguably the most corrupted state in the union.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Did the study address how many Sanders voters didn't vote in the general?
    Still haven't bothered to read it, eh?

    Tom
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Says the man from Wisconsin, arguably the most corrupted state in the union.
    If you've seen my threads on Wisconsin's Republicans, you know I pretty much agree with you. Which has what, exactly, to do with the facts about the 2016 Presidential election?

    Tom
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  28. #98
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    If you've seen my threads on Wisconsin's Republicans, you know I pretty much agree with you. Which has what, exactly, to do with the facts about the 2016 Presidential election?

    Tom
    From where I'm sitting, you voted for Trump.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Oz,

    I admire your stance on politics, and your integrity and passion. But you were the one to claim this:



    I showed you why I think that's the wrong conclusion. If my reasoning is faulty, show me why. If it's not, then you'll need to re-think your own position on this issue.

    Or ignore the refutation and start voting Republican, I guess. You'd fit right in if that's the route you choose.

    Tom
    Yeah.

    those who didn't vote because they whined about Bernie being 'cheated' are just as culpable as those who voted for that POS.

    You say you 'admire' me, but that is hollow chin music.

    Idealism ahs no place in electoral politics, only in the ongoing struggle.


    If someone like Hillary runs for office against a soulless, amoral, authoritarian POS like Trump, then the CIVIC RESPONSIBILITY is to vote Hillary.

    Then, because Hillary is an actual civic-minded human being, rather than an evil, treasonous sack of garbage, her electorate has the power to influence her.

    Him? Not at all.

    Spoiled-rotten, entitled morons.
    Rattling the teacups.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    From where I'm sitting, you voted for Trump.
    + eleventy-million.
    Rattling the teacups.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    From where I'm sitting, you voted for Trump.
    You are remarkably consistent. On this issue, my voting record is just as irrelevant as the state of Wisconsin politics.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Which is the point, why make your vote irrelevant?

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    those who didn't vote because they whined about Bernie being 'cheated' are just as culpable as those who voted for that POS.
    So, how many is that? No way to know.

    We DO know that Democratic voter turnout was markedly lower for Clinton than it had been for Obama.

    The story of Hillary Clinton’s defeat, then, is not the Trump Movement erupting in the ballots, nor the fable that some “Reagan Democrats” flipped again from Obama to Trump. The story is altogether different, and very simple: the Democratic base did not turn out to vote as it did for Obama. Those sure-Democrats who stayed home handed the election to Trump.

    Take Michigan for example. A state that Obama won in 2012 by 350,000 votes, Clinton lost by roughly 10,000. Why? She received 300,000 votes less than Obama did in 2012. Detroit and Wayne County should kick themselves because of the 595,253 votes they gave Obama in 2012, only 518,000 voted for Clinton in 2016. More than 75,000 Motown Obama voters did not bother to vote for Clinton. They did not become Trump voters – Trump received only 10,000 votes more than Romney did in this county. They simply stayed at home. If even a fraction of these lethargic Democrats had turned out to vote, Michigan would have stayed blue.
    SOURCE

    Got any evidence to suggest that those who stayed home were Sanders supporters? Or is it just that you "know" it was Sanders supporters who caused it? Just a "gut feeling?" And how would that be different from pre-conceived bias?

    And for someone who repeatedly bemoans the Democrats for being divided, you sure like to use divisive language like "whining." Someone else complains = whining. You complain--loudly and repeatedly = what? Patriotism? Check. Double standard applies.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Which is the point, why make your vote irrelevant?
    You are making assumptions about who I voted for. Which has, still, nothing to do with the point I am making: Democrats who favored Sanders did NOT cause Clinton to lose. Even if they all had voted for her, she would have lost.

    I'm making no judgment about that, just pointing it out.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  35. #105
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,025

    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    + eleventy-million.
    You DO like to leap to conclusions without evidence, don't you?

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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