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Thread: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

  1. #246
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung
    And this, folks, is how detractors/trolls/troublemakers screw up a party - by appearing to support a position (in an opposition party) while doing what they can to sow discord. You're a stinker, Rick. And I'm being kind.
    That's not true George. Although unashamedly 'all in' on Trump and the MAGA agenda, I'm in line to sympathize with Bernie supporters, especially when they are being mercilessly attacked for being correct.

    The real problem is, rank and file democrats allowed the most devastating political defeat in our lifetimes by not standing up to the democrat party machine.

    When it was revealed during the primaries that Bernie was being conspired against by the DNC and Clinton Inc, that's when the protests should have broke out!

  2. #247
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick-Mi View Post
    That's not true George. Although unashamedly 'all in' on Trump and the MAGA agenda, I'm in line to sympathize with Bernie supporters, especially when they are being mercilessly attacked for being correct.
    I feel exactly the same way. Bernie is not blameless, however, sitting there at the nominating convention as he did, taking all the accolades and ovations as his voters were formally disenfranchised. He should have boycotted it and taken a stage somewhere to decry it. He didn't.

    In some way it indicated that he really didn't want the Presidency.

  3. #248
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue
    In some way it indicated that he really didn't want the Presidency.
    I'm of the opinion that the democratic establishment's big mistake was believing a win was automatic. The same controlled media that conspired against Bernie was declaring "no path to 270" and democrats accepted it as fact.

    I'm glad it didn't happen, but there is no doubt in my mind with the huge crowds, enthusiasm and new voters generated by Bernie Sanders, that if the process was fair across the board, he would have won the democratic primary and general election.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Twodot,

    I'll take it one step further.

    With a popular two term president leaving the country perceived in good shape, more democratic voters, plus the populous NE and California locked up before the election, Hillary Clinton was the ONLY mainstream candidate the democrats could have produced that would have lost.

    Joe Biden would have walked into the presidency had he hot been muscled out of running in favor of the 'coronation'. And if you really think Biden decided not to run solely because of his son's tragic death, I've got a pristine wooden boat to sell you that someone abandoned at a marina.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Exactly what is "stupid" about believing the Dem party should be inclusive? I'm may not be the brightest bulb on the porch, but expanding the party sounds better than telling people (in so many words or by actions) they're not wanted.

    @ a later post: "Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" has been used to describe the Dems for many years.
    No...
    Just think for a minute, who is the ruling party? (Note that I'm not saying those rulers are stupid, because this is the most clever connivance I have seen yet. Russia, Racism, Misogyny, Mobsters, and organized religion all in bed with republicans. Who dreamed that one up? )

    Imagine you could just convince an electoral majority that Jesus will save them if only they voted for a specific party!

  6. #251
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    he would have won the primary and the general
    If Bernie had survived the primary, I too believe he would have defeated Trump in the general. The Blue Wall would not have fallen to Trump. At least not all of them.

    Sanders would be President today.

  7. #252
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue
    The Blue Wall would not have fallen to Trump. At least not all of them.

    Sanders would be President today.
    There is little doubt about that, let's take my state of Michigan for example.

    Bernie beat Hillary Clinton in the primary and Trump only won our state in the general by a razor thin margin of a little over 10,000 votes! Clearly, Bernie would have won Michigan. Same with Pennsylvania that wasn't declared for Trump until very late election eve.

    What brought me into this discussion is Bernie supporters getting hammered for standing by their principles, when they are the ones who were correct.

  8. #253
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    The would-couldas get tough, though. Recalling Minnesota, if Gary Johnson wasn't on the ballot, Trump would have taken that state as well. Johnson's votes exceeded the difference between Clinton and Trump's (iirc).

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    what brought me into this discussion
    Well, I agree with that assessment as well. What's worse for them is that the Clintons, Schumer, Pelosi...

    They're all still running it. It's a good OP/Thread.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Hehe... Rick and kablooie, holding hands and sympathizing with those poor Bernie supporters, who who just aren’t being appreciated by the meanol’ democrats...(hey rick... sneak a peek, are they buying it?). You boys should show the dems who is boss, and vote against ‘Em this time, too! Yeah! That’s the ticket!
    and that , dear reader, is how you divide and conquer. Hamhanded- but effective.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  11. #256
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Exactly what is "stupid" about believing the Dem party should be inclusive? I'm may not be the brightest bulb on the porch, but expanding the party sounds better than telling people (in so many words or by actions) they're not wanted.
    Isn't that what McMike is telling Clinton supporters?

  12. #257
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Isn't that what McMike is telling Clinton supporters?
    Yep (though he did say he voted for her) - and you guys seem to be saying "We like what the Dem party is & are good with how it lost last time around."

    I voted for her too, but I'd rather see a bigger tent Dem party that can kick the sleaze out of DC and take out country back (even if we argue about where to go after the election). Hearing folks I respect say that they'd do 2016 all over again depresses the hell out of me -as saying that will definitely snatch defeat.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  13. #258
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Yep - and you guys seem to be saying "We like what the Dem party is & are good with how it lost last time around."

    I'd rather see a bigger tent Dem party that can kick the sleaze out of DC and take out country back (even if we argue about where to go after the election). Hearing folks I respect say that they'd do 2016 all over again depresses the hell out of me -as saying that will definitely snatch defeat.
    So, you agree that McMike is telling Clinton supporters that they're not wanted, and yet you seem to have taken his side? How does that make sense? Shouldn't a big tent include both Sanders supporters and Clinton supporters? Will Sanders supporters not come in the tent as long as there are Clinton supporters there? Why must Clinton be condemned for Sanders supporters to feel okay about participating in the Democratic Party?

    You need to get over your obsession with 2016 and look forward. You keep insisting on relitigating the last election, but 2020 is going to have its own dynamic. Clinton won't be there, so why do you insist that she must be condemned, and that telling Clinton supporters they're not wanted is the way forward?

    Claiming that anyone has said "we like what the Dem party is & are good with how it lost last time around" isn't accurate and serves no purpose. Rubbing peoples nose in the loss may make you feel better, insisting that the person who beat Bernie in the primaries was a horrible, terrible, not very good candidate may make you feel better, but Clinton won't be running next time, so what's the point? The party tried to reach out to Bernie's supporters in 2016, Clinton tried to reach out to his supporters and give them a chance to influence the platform, Bernie tried to get them to support Clinton in 2016, but the response to that outreach has been the sort of hostility we've seen on this thread.

    Once you've managed to let the Clinton supporters know they're not wanted in the party, you'll have a much smaller party. Maybe you think the purity is worth it, I think it's a small tent approach to the problem.



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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Once again: alternate history is a subclass of fiction. I don't know what would have happened had Bernie Sanders not lost in the primaries (yes, you got it, he lost in the primaries) to Ms. Clinton. Neither does anyone else. Arguing about it might be a way to pass the time, but it will never arrive at an answer

    One reason the Republicans win more elections that demographics would indicate is that once a candidate is picked, often by a pretty fractious process, they generally unite behind him.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    David G
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    People like you have squandered that slim advantage, after having made substantial gains.

    Truly pathetic.
    oz,

    what in the world are you talking about? "People like me?" You're completely and utterly clueless.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    ...nobody is saying that we should willfully offer up a stinker. I am saying that we should try very, very, very hard to put forward a candidate that has the best chance of unifying the Democratic party, and the best chance of beating Trump. We should try hard to bring progressives and independents enthusiastically into the fold. However, if the process somehow fails, because it is democratic and therefore imperfect, then we must hold our noses and vote against Trump.
    I agree with you. But my point is, lots of progressive voters don't, and won't. That point was made when 12% of voters who identify as Democratic or "leaning" Democratic voted for Trump.

    What I am saying on this thread is pure pragmatism. Since we know from experience that 12% of the likely D voters are willing to NOT vote for a D if they don't get a candidate they feel represents them, and Clinton supporters seem to be saying "We must hold our noses and vote for whoever ends up being the candidate"--well, it seems painfully obvious that Democratic voters would do well to pick a candidate who appeals to that 12% this time.

    So my message is not really to the DNC (though it'd be nice if they would be fair). And it's certainly not a message about 2016. It's to voters. To you people. And it's for 2020. If you want that 12% who abandoned the party last time, AND want to add young voters too, the best way to get them is to vote for a progressive candidate in the primary. After all, you'll all hold your noses and vote for any D. So make it a D that young voters and progressives--all of us--will vote for, too.

    Tom
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  18. #263
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Tom,
    The OP was highly polarizing..."Democrats will never get redemption until they admit that Hillary Clinton was a huge mistake and a horrible candidate"...and the comments may appear condescending, belligerent, or pugnacious simply because they match the tone of the OP.
    Tom
    I can see that. But we can step back from that tone and discuss rationally if we choose to. I think there's a good point being made under the heated rhetoric.

    Tom
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  19. #264
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    The progressives will never recover the power they enjoyed in the 60s/70s by complaining about the DNC.

    We must co-opt the DNC.
    oz,

    do you recognize that this is exactly what I'm saying? It's up to primary voters to support a progressive candidate in the primary. It seems obvious the DNC is going to tend to support an establishment moderate. In so doing, they risk losing the same 12% they did last time. And also won't appeal strongly to young voters. So, do I trust the DNC? No way. But the voters have the real power in the end. It's as simple as voting progressive in the primary.

    Or voting for the "hold your nose" candidate and see Dems lose again.

    Tom
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  20. #265
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    This:
    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Before you all start whining about "Berniacs" again, please understand I am making absolutely no argument here about 2016.
    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Directly contradicts this:
    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I am simply pointing out the Sanders clearly was onto something that appeals to young voters. You know, the future of the party (potentially). But instead of the party saying "Wow, what he was doing that we could pick up on?" they essentially start raging if anyone brings this up. Yes, oznabrag, I'm talking about you. Less rage, more thought, might be a more productive approach. But even among the more moderate responses here, there is a real defensiveness, a "vote for any Democrat or else" mentality that cannot tolerate being questioned. The same mentality that failed so spectacularly last time.


    Nonsense. No contradiction at all.

    And this:

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    With most of what you've said on this thread, you haven't even disagreed with the people you think you're arguing with.
    shows a failure to understand my point. I'm not "arguing with" anyone. I am presenting an argument (in the academic sense) about what the strategically smart thing to do in 2020 is. And meeting a surprisingly defensive and emotional reaction from several posters here. Which suggests that they do not, in fact, agree with my take on things.

    Or is this the moment when you are telling me you agree?

    As for what positions of Clinton I take issue with, do you notice how you are going on about 2016? And I am focusing on 2020?

    Tom
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    The problem seems to be how and why so many are convinced that Clinton was a poor candidate.
    Does anyone trying to tell us this actually know her? No, they just repeating the talking heads.
    Absolute proof that propaganda works.
    Clinton was likely the most competent candidate in our lifetime.

    It doesn't matter "how and why" people were/are convinced that HRC was/is a poor candidate. Neither does her competency matter. And it doesn't matter if those perceptions are true/correct. Whatever that means.

    What matters is that perception is EVERYTHING.

    Figuratively speaking, no matter how good, or fast, you are, if you start the 4k race with a 15 second penalty (and carrying 25kg on your back) ... you're extremely unlikely to win the race.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    oz,

    what in the world are you talking about? "People like me?" You're completely and utterly clueless.

    Tom
    Here.

    Get a clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Rattling the teacups.

  23. #268
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I agree with you. But my point is, lots of progressive voters don't, and won't. That point was made when 12% of voters who identify as Democratic or "leaning" Democratic voted for Trump.

    What I am saying on this thread is pure pragmatism. Since we know from experience that 12% of the likely D voters are willing to NOT vote for a D if they don't get a candidate they feel represents them, and Clinton supporters seem to be saying "We must hold our noses and vote for whoever ends up being the candidate"--well, it seems painfully obvious that Democratic voters would do well to pick a candidate who appeals to that 12% this time.

    So my message is not really to the DNC (though it'd be nice if they would be fair). And it's certainly not a message about 2016. It's to voters. To you people. And it's for 2020. If you want that 12% who abandoned the party last time, AND want to add young voters too, the best way to get them is to vote for a progressive candidate in the primary. After all, you'll all hold your noses and vote for any D. So make it a D that young voters and progressives--all of us--will vote for, too.

    Tom
    No.

    Pure pragmatism is holding your nose and voting for whoever ends up being the candidate.

    That's why the 'Republicans' win elections.


    What you are advocating for is for the 12% to be kowtowed to like a bunch of tantrum-pitching three-year-olds.

    No wonder they elected Trump.

    They are just like him.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Yes, oznabrag, I'm talking about you. Less rage, more thought,
    Tom
    Rage?

    You are clearly a man who has never stared into the face of stone cold fury.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    It doesn't matter "how and why" people were/are convinced that HRC was/is a poor candidate. Neither does her competency matter. And it doesn't matter if those perceptions are true/correct. Whatever that means.

    What matters is that perception is EVERYTHING.

    Figuratively speaking, no matter how good, or fast, you are, if you start the 4k race with a 15 second penalty (and carrying 25kg on your back) ... you're extremely unlikely to win the race.
    Maybe, but I'm still going to run the race. Until the wheels come off.

    Who should I have voted for, any suggestions?

    Should I have written in Bernie, or Biden perhaps? It makes no difference who the candidate is, you have to vote the ticket or you are going to lose.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    So, you agree that McMike is telling Clinton supporters that they're not wanted, and yet you seem to have taken his side? How does that make sense? Shouldn't a big tent include both Sanders supporters and Clinton supporters? Will Sanders supporters not come in the tent as long as there are Clinton supporters there? Why must Clinton be condemned for Sanders supporters to feel okay about participating in the Democratic Party?

    You need to get over your obsession with 2016 and look forward. You keep insisting on relitigating the last election, but 2020 is going to have its own dynamic. Clinton won't be there, so why do you insist that she must be condemned, and that telling Clinton supporters they're not wanted is the way forward?

    Claiming that anyone has said "we like what the Dem party is & are good with how it lost last time around" isn't accurate and serves no purpose. Rubbing peoples nose in the loss may make you feel better, insisting that the person who beat Bernie in the primaries was a horrible, terrible, not very good candidate may make you feel better, but Clinton won't be running next time, so what's the point? The party tried to reach out to Bernie's supporters in 2016, Clinton tried to reach out to his supporters and give them a chance to influence the platform, Bernie tried to get them to support Clinton in 2016, but the response to that outreach has been the sort of hostility we've seen on this thread.

    Once you've managed to let the Clinton supporters know they're not wanted in the party, you'll have a much smaller party. Maybe you think the purity is worth it, I think it's a small tent approach to the problem.


    OK - I have to put this thread (not the people who've posted to it) on ignore. Everyone is misinterpreting what I am trying to say - or else I am somehow being unclear. While I haven't read every post in perfect detail, I do not believe Clinton people should not be in the party or anything even vaguely like that! I do believe that they also need to accept that, even though she was far & away the best candidate in 2016, she had been compromised as a candidate (through no fault of her own) by a concerted attack over years & years by Bannon & other Republicans. She also ran a mediocre campaign. BUT WHO CARES????? That was then - this is now.

    I have said a number of times on this thread: the Dem party needs to be a bigger tent! How on earth can anyone get "Garret does not want Clinton supporters" out of that? Maybe I'm being completely unclear, or you guys are misunderstanding. I've even said 2016 is "water over the dam"!

    I will say this one last time: The Democratic party needs to welcome all parts of the party. Is that clear e-f'n-nough? The party needs to support all members. Doesn't matter if you're Joe Donnelly or Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez - if you won your primary, you should be supported & encouraged.

    I am not going to fit into your "the Dem party is perfect" mindset - 'cause it ain't even close. However, as long as you keep voting against Trump, McConnell, and Ryan (and their ilk), I can live with disagreeing about that.

    Over & out.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    OK - I have to put this thread (not the people who've posted to it) on ignore. Everyone is misinterpreting what I am trying to say - or else I am somehow being unclear. While I haven't read every post in perfect detail, I do not believe Clinton people should not be in the party or anything even vaguely like that! I do believe that they also need to accept that, even though she was far & away the best candidate in 2016, she had been compromised as a candidate (through no fault of her own) by a concerted attack over years & years by Bannon & other Republicans. She also ran a mediocre campaign. BUT WHO CARES????? That was then - this is now.

    I have said a number of times on this thread: the Dem party needs to be a bigger tent! How on earth can anyone get "Garret does not want Clinton supporters" out of that? Maybe I'm being completely unclear, or you guys are misunderstanding. I've even said 2016 is "water over the dam"!

    I will say this one last time: The Democratic party needs to welcome all parts of the party. Is that clear e-f'n-nough? The party needs to support all members. Doesn't matter if you're Joe Donnelly or Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez - if you won your primary, you should be supported & encouraged.

    I am not going to fit into your "the Dem party is perfect" mindset - 'cause it ain't even close. However, as long as you keep voting against Trump, McConnell, and Ryan (and their ilk), I can live with disagreeing about that.

    Over & out.
    Well. I can hear ya now! :P Honestly, I don't think there's even that much disagreement on any of this - but the dysfunction in this thread serves well illustrating how/why the Dems have so much trouble achieving success.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Well. I can hear ya now! :P Honestly, I don't think there's even that much disagreement on any of this - but the dysfunction in this thread serves well illustrating how/why the Dems have so much trouble achieving success.
    We're fooked.
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Only if we, as a party, are incapable of 'taking a step back', look a bit dispassionately, and act accordingly. Need to vote. Need to vote for 'the best available option'. Protest votes are very much cutting off your nose to spite yer face.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Only if we, as a party, are incapable of 'taking a step back', look a bit dispassionately, and act accordingly. Need to vote. Need to vote for 'the best available option'. Protest votes are very much cutting off your nose to spite yer face.
    But the "O ya...I'll show ya" attitude is strong here.

    Lets hope cooler minds prevail.
    PaulF

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Yup. See, we can get agreement! :P
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    As Will Rogers said: "I belong to no organized party. I'm a Democrat."

    Now, it was even more true then; FDR's coalition had the white supremacist heirs of the Confederacy, the old northern ethnic city machines, unions, progressives of all kinds, actual socialists when such things still existed, and a whole grab bag of miscellaneous oddities. It's much less heterogeneous since the parties have sorted themselves out on left-right lines over the past 40 years - but the old habits die hard, and those who would rather lose than vote for an imperfect second-best candidate don't help at all.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I agree with you. But my point is, lots of progressive voters don't, and won't. That point was made when 12% of voters who identify as Democratic or "leaning" Democratic voted for Trump.

    What I am saying on this thread is pure pragmatism. Since we know from experience that 12% of the likely D voters are willing to NOT vote for a D if they don't get a candidate they feel represents them . . .
    Wait, I thought you were describing

    . . . Democratic voted for Trump.
    . . .not . . .

    willing to NOT vote for a D
    Is that two separate 12%'s?

    D's that voted for Trump are not D's. They can F right off.

    As for big tent, the white-girl-take-off-your-hoops people are welcome as long as they keep their mouths shut about their stupid stuff. Together we will reap the benefits. After the election, we can talk about earrings, having saved the republic that makes the discussion possible.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

  34. #279
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    24,295

    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    OK - I have to put this thread (not the people who've posted to it) on ignore. Everyone is misinterpreting what I am trying to say - or else I am somehow being unclear. While I haven't read every post in perfect detail, I do not believe Clinton people should not be in the party or anything even vaguely like that! I do believe that they also need to accept that, even though she was far & away the best candidate in 2016, she had been compromised as a candidate (through no fault of her own) by a concerted attack over years & years by Bannon & other Republicans. She also ran a mediocre campaign. BUT WHO CARES????? That was then - this is now.

    I have said a number of times on this thread: the Dem party needs to be a bigger tent! How on earth can anyone get "Garret does not want Clinton supporters" out of that? Maybe I'm being completely unclear, or you guys are misunderstanding. I've even said 2016 is "water over the dam"!

    I will say this one last time: The Democratic party needs to welcome all parts of the party. Is that clear e-f'n-nough? The party needs to support all members. Doesn't matter if you're Joe Donnelly or Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez - if you won your primary, you should be supported & encouraged.

    I am not going to fit into your "the Dem party is perfect" mindset - 'cause it ain't even close. However, as long as you keep voting against Trump, McConnell, and Ryan (and their ilk), I can live with disagreeing about that.

    Over & out.
    Shouting won't help, and continuing to misrepresent what other people have said won't help either. No one on this thread has said the Democratic Party is perfect. I know it's easier to argue against straw men, but it isn't useful.

    Yes, you've said you don't want to talk about 2016. Then you've talked about 2016. For example, you keep telling us Clinton was a terrible candidate because Republicans had said terrible things about her. Jettisoning any candidate your opponent criticizes will allow your opponent to choose your candidate, which seems like a very bad strategy. For example, they could lay off the weaker candidate until after the primaries so that they'd have him to run against. like they did during the year you claim you don't want to talk about, then keep talking about.

    Yes, you said you want a bigger tent. I've already outlined why I think your approach to the party is a small-tent strategy. The problem is not that I haven't understood you, it's that I disagree with you. You can claim you want a big-tent party 'til you're blue in the face, but if your way of achieving that is to tell Clinton supporters that they are a bunch of poo-heads, I respectfully submit that what you propose is really a small-tent approach.

    Now, maybe I'm misunderstanding you. To me, supporting the proposition that:

    Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    . . . they admit that Hillary Clinton was a huge mistake and a horrible candidate. Trump will win a second term if the Democratic Party exposes their flawed judgement and apologizes. You want votes, clean up the spilt milk.
    ...is divisive, and likely to fracture the progressives rather than unite them. From everything you've said, I've assumed that you support the OP. If you don't, you should say so, because you taking that side is what makes me think your strategy isn't really going to lead to a big-tent party.

    You made a reference to
    telling people (in so many words or by actions) they're not wanted.
    To which I responded:

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Isn't that what McMike is telling Clinton supporters?
    Instead of telling me how that fits with your big-tent approach, you said:
    Yep (though he did say he voted for her) - and you guys seem to be saying "We like what the Dem party is & are good with how it lost last time around."
    Here's my problem. You say you want a big-tent approach, you shout it in bold face, but the totality of your argument seems to be that Clinton's supporters were poo-heads who can only redeem themselves by rejecting all they have been in the past and accepting the good word of Sanders-style progressivism. If your idea of a big tent is to insult your would-be allies, mischaracterize what they've said, and claim they can only redeem themselves by accepting your beliefs as gospel, then regardless of what you say you want, you'll end up with a smaller tent.

    If that's not what you meant to say, you need to explain why the words you used seem to say that.

    I really think part of the problem is that while the Democrats tried to reach out to Sanders supporters, it could never be enough. They were ripe for being exploited by the people who stole the DNC's emails and made the arguments that you, McMike, and a lot of Russian trolls have made. One of the things the DNC does is support candidates. In your view, they weren't sufficiently open to Bernie's insurgent campaign. Well and good, I certainly think they should have had more debates, for example, and it seems to me that they've learned a bit and are now open to more progressive candidates. One thing they've done that has angered Sanders supporters is insist that to be eligible for the nomination, people have to be Democrats, and Bernie isn't one. That hasn't been mentioned on this thread, but I think it's part of what keeps the resentment burning. It indicates that the Democrats have learned more than one lesson. One is that they should be more open to progressive candidates. Another, judging from that rule change, is that when people who are not part of the party try to use the party apparatus to further their ambitions, it can wreck the party. Well, you wanted them to learn from 2016, and that's one of the lessons they took away. We are not in control of what lessons other people learn from events. In any case, even a rule change Sanders supporters will hate shows that they are intent on not repeating the problems they had in 2016. Instead, they are working on a process that will result in a new set of problems. I think they should be open to outsiders, but like Bernie, I've never registered as a Democrat, so I guess I don't get to make their rules.

    You keep claiming that nothing was learned from 2016, but that's not the problem. The problem is that the DNC learned different lessons than you wanted them to.

  35. #280
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Northern California Mountains
    Posts
    12,310

    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    I'm meeting a suprsingly defensive and emotional reaction
    Welcome to the club.

    You're discovering that the bunch here doesn't like being told they're wrong about anything nor do they accept thoughtful criticism, no matter how fairly or patiently argued.

    I suggest approaching it with no expectations of any kind, and just have fun with it.

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