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Thread: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

  1. #211
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Again, Good For You. She lost, to Trump. I was right and you were wrong. You're still wrong. This thread wasn't about me initially, it was about all of the votes that were lost when the DNC decided to ordain Clinton. The effing hubris, and you're still carrying it on. You want votes? . . . the DNC had better understand, very carefully, my opinion in the OP. They want to lose again, keep it up, keep up acting like you and Two'y and Keith. Keep acting like the folks that will vote Democrat are so simple, so single minded, like most Republican voters, that they will swallow any line spoken to get a vote. They won't. It would be great if everybody would understand that the only way to beat Trump is to unify . . . but thinks just ain't that bad yet, they have to be won over. You wanna talk about the politics of fear? You guys spend a lot of time telling me why I should fear Trump, but very little time coming up with solutions other than telling me to do as I'm told for my own good.

    I gotta say, this thread as done more damage to my perception of the Democratic party than HC could have ever done. You guys think you've got all the answers, so much so, that you will lose it again in 2020. Effing stupid.

    SHE LOST!!!!!! I was right and you were wrong. Yet you and others here keep up the condescending BS. Guess what; that's how we lose again.

    Cheese and rice, how many times can Tom say it differently? You cant even hear a smart guy with his sh17 together without trying to make him look stupid. It's embarrassing to watch . . .
    Yeah.

    She lost to Trump, but not before Bernie lost TO HER.

    Yeah. Unify.

    12% of Berniacs voted Trump.

    Some 'unify'.

    Pathetic.

    I still don't get how you figure you were 'right'.

    What the childish, entitled, self-important, so-called 'progressive left' should grasp is that they needed to elect Hillary, because that way they had some power, then work on that power. Hold her feet to the fire.

    Honestly, you people whine and carry on like baby boomers with your delusional notions that you DESERVE a 'progressive' candidate/office holder.

    NEWSFLASH, SPORT!!!

    YOU GOTTA GET SOMEONE ELECTED BEFORE YOU HAVE ANY POLITICAL POWER AT ALL.

    WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND THAT CRYSTAL CLEAR PIECE OF REALITY AND GET BACK TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Also, you are dead wrong.

    'How we lose again' involves a bunch of whiners sitting home on election day waiting for a waaaaahmbulance because the DNC isn't running Antti Rinne.

    G R O W . U P.

    You have three choices. Democrat, Criminal or Apathetic.
    Rattling the teacups.

  2. #212
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    ……………and 40% of those with the right to vote either do not care what sort of regime is in place, or have been disenfranchised by the crooked activities of at least one of the parties. For that reason alone any electoral comparison is really about two pressure groups. If perchance the 40% decided the someone other than the usual two should get the job then they'd both be out on a limb, and I'd bet that they'd be in coalition as quick as a flash, ideology and ethics abandoned in favour of power.

  3. #213
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Again, Good For You. She lost, to Trump. I was right and you were wrong. You're still wrong. This thread wasn't about me initially, it was about all of the votes that were lost when the DNC decided to ordain Clinton. The effing hubris, and you're still carrying it on. You want votes? . . . the DNC had better understand, very carefully, my opinion in the OP. They want to lose again, keep it up, keep up acting like you and Two'y and Keith. Keep acting like the folks that will vote Democrat are so simple, so single minded, like most Republican voters, that they will swallow any line spoken to get a vote. They won't. It would be great if everybody would understand that the only way to beat Trump is to unify . . . but thinks just ain't that bad yet, they have to be won over. You wanna talk about the politics of fear? You guys spend a lot of time telling me why I should fear Trump, but very little time coming up with solutions other than telling me to do as I'm told for my own good.

    I gotta say, this thread as done more damage to my perception of the Democratic party than HC could have ever done. You guys think you've got all the answers, so much so, that you will lose it again in 2020. Effing stupid.

    SHE LOST!!!!!! I was right and you were wrong. Yet you and others here keep up the condescending BS. Guess what; that's how we lose again.

    Cheese and rice, how many times can Tom say it differently? You cant even hear a smart guy with his sh17 together without trying to make him look stupid. It's embarrassing to watch . . .
    Well, that certainly unified the opposition against Trump.

    Keep bemoaning what happened in 2016 and blaming the people who mostly agree with you, that ought to help. Attack the enemy of your enemy enough times, and victory is assured. Keep telling the people who would like to be your allies that you were right and they were wrong, that will show that you've got all the answers and will surely improve their perceptions of you. Keep telling them that Hillary lost, they can't possibly realize that, and that proves they should have broken all the rules about how nominees are selected and given Bernie a nomination he hadn't earned by getting the votes.

    Oh, and call them effing stupid, that's really persuasive.

  4. #214
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Well, that certainly unified the opposition against Trump.

    Keep bemoaning what happened in 2016 and blaming the people who mostly agree with you, that ought to help. Attack the enemy of your enemy enough times, and victory is assured. Keep telling the people who would like to be your allies that you were right and they were wrong, that will show that you've got all the answers and will surely improve their perceptions of you. Keep telling them that Hillary lost, they can't possibly realize that, and that proves they should have broken all the rules about how nominees are selected and given Bernie a nomination he hadn't earned by getting the votes.

    Oh, and call them effing stupid, that's really persuasive.
    Exactly. There's an election next month. It is what matters right now.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Following with bemusement. Not sure why this angry diatribe, Mike. You’re off the rails- but recognize one truth. The republicans coalesced begin Trump- they held their nose, and voted enblock. The Democrats did not- and some were so pi$$ed off they stayed home or voted Trump. A hissy fit. Shot themselves in the foot- and the rest of us in the back. I’d have voted for anyone- anyone! Else over Trump. Gotta keep your eye on the goal.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  6. #216
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Purge your Uniparty scum and you'll do much better.

    Dialing back the hate a notch or two couldn't hurt, either.

    So much hate!

  7. #217
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    It's amazing that it took the Kavanaugh confirmation to finally ring home the true powerlessness of the Democrats. We're two years down the road and the 2016 post-mortem only now gets underway. Amazing.

    It is a rudderless, leaderless party that is so angrily racialized it cannot coherently articulate any imperatives other than the politics of identity and hatred for Trump.

    Kavanaugh's succession to the bench ends 50 years of strategic liberalism on the SCOTUS, securing it for constitutionalism for decades. As far as any of us is concerned, it may as well be forever. It is a victory for the ages and Trump will quite rightly get the historical credit for it. None of it would be happening without him.

  8. #218
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Most if not all of us are going to pass into that good night under the aegis of a SCOTUS with a cemented conservative majority. Redeem that.

  9. #219
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    It is interesting to see such emotional over-reactions to what essentially is a strategic argument for 2020.

    1. Run a candidate who will appeal to young voters. What would such a candidate look like? Well, there's this:

    In the 2016 campaign, Sanders won more votes among those under age 30 than the two presumptive major-party presidential nominees combined. And it wasn't close.
    SOURCE

    Before you all start whining about "Berniacs" again, please understand I am making absolutely no argument here about 2016. I am simply pointing out the Sanders clearly was onto something that appeals to young voters. You know, the future of the party (potentially). But instead of the party saying "Wow, what he was doing that we could pick up on?" they essentially start raging if anyone brings this up. Yes, oznabrag, I'm talking about you. Less rage, more thought, might be a more productive approach. But even among the more moderate responses here, there is a real defensiveness, a "vote for any Democrat or else" mentality that cannot tolerate being questioned. The same mentality that failed so spectacularly last time.

    It's also a mentality that couldn't do a better job of angering and alienating progressive voters than if it were designed for that exact purpose.

    Then there's this:

    In a panel discussion following the presentation, Jane Coaston, a political reporter for MTV Networks, offered that the parties should rethink how they appeal to key constituencies and build political party membership. She noted that a more ground-up approach to party organization would allow voters to convey to the parties the issues they care about, rather than the current strategy: assuming voters will inherently prioritize party identification at the ballot box.
    SOURCE

    This is pretty much what Garrett and I (and I think McMike) have been arguing. We tried the "assume voters will prioritize party identification" strategy in 2016. Trump is now President. The party ought to be asking young people what their issues are, and adjusting the platform and candidates to reflect at least some of that.

    Instead of running on "At least we're not Trump!"--a truly uninspiring position--the party should lay out a specific platform that embraces at least some progressive ideals. Build an identity. One that will appeal to the people who didn't vote D last time--the "Berniacs" who are being scolded and trashed so thoroughly here. Please understand, I am not advocating Sanders as the 2020 candidate. I'm saying, we need the people who wanted him. What are we willing to offer them?

    As for the rest, heated rhetoric and emotional reactions are pretty much destroying this thread. And I'm not talking about McMike.

    Tom
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  10. #220
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    I'll add that I've been very happy to see the ground-up approach taking hold in the Wisconsin state level Democratic party. They have started to invite people to establish local advisory boards to give feedback to the party on what issues matter, and what they'd like to see in a candidate. I've been involved in that process a little bit, and want to do more. In my opinion, they are on the right track. They are asking voters "How would you like us to represent you?"

    They are NOT scolding voters with a "Vote for whatever Democrat we choose to offer you" line of BS the way many posters on this thread are.

    There's no reason that similar things could not be done for the national party as well.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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  11. #221
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    I think their argument is that a large block of progressives/independents are unyielding, they will not vote unless their ideal is approximated. Thus, the mainstream Democratic party must accommodate them, rather than vice versa.
    That is one minor line in my argument. But my bigger point is that it would be strategically smart to move toward the progressive position, and I've done my best to explain why.

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    An argument to be considered. But the nuances are imposing. Such as, if a candidate does not emerge which satisfies their criteria, and is also electable in the general, then there is not much that one can do these folk.
    Ah, the myth of the "unelectable" candidate. Perhaps some will remember this from history class:

    Dewey Truman.jpg

    Tom
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  12. #222
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Yes it sounds condescending when you frame it that way. But it is a bit hyperbolic, I think. It could also be framed this way: The primary process, however imperfect, yielded Hillary Clinton as the winner and Bernie Sanders as the loser. Mainstream Democrats are dismayed that some progressives and independents walked away after losing the primary. This block enthusiastically participated...until they lost.
    I don't think it's hyperbole at all; I think it's very close to the perception progressive voters have of the party's reaction.

    And just because they did not vote for Clinton does NOT mean they did not participate. It means the Democratic party had so little to offer them that they quite rightly chose not to vote for their candidate. What you see as non-participation, I see as a pretty clear message: ignore us, fail to give us some representation, and we won't vote for you.

    You are the only poster here (on the mainstream Democrat side) who has said this:

    Moving forward, mainstream Democrats recognize that the progressive and independent voice and voting block should be considered
    I worry that no one else recognizes the need.

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    but not to the extent that a too highly polarizing candidate is put forward.
    With this caveat: worry too much about not offending anyone, and you won't be able to actually stand for anything. Sometimes you have to pick a side and say "This is what we believe in, this is what we want to do. Vote for us or not, but we won't abandon our values just because someone might disagree."

    Simply "not being Trump" wasn't enough to win in 2016. Why on earth believe it will be enough in 2020?

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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  13. #223
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    twodot,

    I think you're wrong about that. From what I can tell, that's exactly what those here posting about "Berniacs" and "moaning about 2016" are arguing. That we have to just hold our nose and vote for whatever candidate the Democrats offer in 2020. And anyone who doesn't is stupid, or a traitor, or both. Other than you, no one else has even responded to my argument--they just rage on about things that I haven't even been saying.

    Thanks, by the way, for engaging in actual discussion. I appreciate your perspective.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    That we have to just hold our nose and vote for whatever candidate the Democrats offer in 2020.
    Yes, we do. I believe that. And I have no patience for those who do not believe that.

    Because...

    ...nobody is saying that we should willfully offer up a stinker. I am saying that we should try very, very, very hard to put forward a candidate that has the best chance of unifying the Democratic party, and the best chance of beating Trump. We should try hard to bring progressives and independents enthusiastically into the fold. However, if the process somehow fails, because it is democratic and therefore imperfect, then we must hold our noses and vote against Trump.
    bccphalarope(dot)com

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Yes it sounds condescending when you frame it that way. But it is a bit hyperbolic, I think. It could also be framed this way: The primary process, however imperfect, yielded Hillary Clinton as the winner and Bernie Sanders as the loser. Mainstream Democrats are dismayed that some progressives and independents walked away after losing the primary.
    The problem is that until Bernie Sanders, a non-Democrat, tossed his hat in the Democratic Party's ring, it was pretty much a 1-candidate race.

    The powers that be in the Democratic Party put their thumb on the scales and ... [snark]highly encouraged[/snark] ... candidates other than HRC to not run.

    It wasn't an honest race. Bernie Sanders didn't do as well as he did because he was a great candidate. He did as well as he did because he was the only real alternative in the primaries.

    And oddly, lots of people were a little grumpy and nonplussed that their choices had been ... curtailed ... because the DNC had decided ahead of time who the candidate should be. And they voted with their feet.

    This is a real problem with our 2-party electoral system where party affiliation comes into play for ballot eligibility. Instead of primaries, we need a proper run-off election -- top 2 vote getters, regardless of party affiliation advance to the general election.

    The party can run zero, one, or more candidates in the primary... but the top 2 go to the finals.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Tom,
    The OP was highly polarizing..."Democrats will never get redemption until they admit that Hillary Clinton was a huge mistake and a horrible candidate"...and the comments may appear condescending, belligerent, or pugnacious simply because they match the tone of the OP.
    Tom
    bccphalarope(dot)com

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I don't think it's hyperbole at all; I think it's very close to the perception progressive voters have of the party's reaction.

    And just because they did not vote for Clinton does NOT mean they did not participate. It means the Democratic party had so little to offer them that they quite rightly chose not to vote for their candidate. What you see as non-participation, I see as a pretty clear message: ignore us, fail to give us some representation, and we won't vote for you.

    You are the only poster here (on the mainstream Democrat side) who has said this:



    I worry that no one else recognizes the need.



    With this caveat: worry too much about not offending anyone, and you won't be able to actually stand for anything. Sometimes you have to pick a side and say "This is what we believe in, this is what we want to do. Vote for us or not, but we won't abandon our values just because someone might disagree."

    Simply "not being Trump" wasn't enough to win in 2016. Why on earth believe it will be enough in 2020?

    Tom

    Again Tom, thanks for having the knowledge, mastery, and above all sainthood, in order to explain the issue. Although one has to wonder why it’s taking them so much effort to understand the truth as you’ve laid it out.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  18. #228
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    The problem is that until Bernie Sanders, a non-Democrat, tossed his hat in the Democratic Party's ring, it was pretty much a 1-candidate race.

    The powers that be in the Democratic Party put their thumb on the scales and ... [snark]highly encouraged[/snark] ... candidates other than HRC to not run.

    It wasn't an honest race. Bernie Sanders didn't do as well as he did because he was a great candidate. He did as well as he did because he was the only real alternative in the primaries.

    And oddly, lots of people were a little grumpy and nonplussed that their choices had been ... curtailed ... because the DNC had decided ahead of time who the candidate should be. And they voted with their feet.

    This is a real problem with our 2-party electoral system where party affiliation comes into play for ballot eligibility. Instead of primaries, we need a proper run-off election -- top 2 vote getters, regardless of party affiliation advance to the general election.

    The party can run zero, one, or more candidates in the primary... but the top 2 go to the finals.
    This fact is that Bernie added to the potential voters for the Democrats, the Democrats lost them when the choice was Clinton and Clinton. With the exception of the really hard core Trump supporters, every other Trump voter, the majority of them, say they simply couldn’t vote for Clinton. The reality is, she was the single most sh177y candidate the Dems could have run within the realm of reality. The tone deaf DNC couldn’t see what dummies like me could.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Tom,
    The OP was highly polarizing..."Democrats will never get redemption until they admit that Hillary Clinton was a huge mistake and a horrible candidate"...and the comments may appear condescending, belligerent, or pugnacious simply because they match the tone of the OP.
    Tom
    I was right in 2016 and I’m right about this. Eat crow and pick a solid candidate and the votes will come screaming in. The people wanted to punish the DNC. I’m sorry you don’t like it, but the reality is, it’s true. Get out of your bubble for a bit, go take a job doing real work and listen to those people. You’ll see. Or you can be stubborn and lose . . . . Again.

    FWIW, a very reasonable and intelligent poster, Tom, has kindly and gently laid out the larger point and you still blame my polarization for the reason you don’t want to listen to it? Are you that fragile? It took you getting angry at me to be engaged, Tom took over to talk turkey. Not my fault you think you don’t need to learn new things because you’re so freaking smart already.
    Last edited by McMike; 10-11-2018 at 05:39 AM.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    ...go take a job doing real work ... you’re so freaking smart already.
    Please elaborate.
    bccphalarope(dot)com

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    The "Bernie voters switched to Trump" meme really misses a huge point.

    Historically Bernie has gotten a lot of Dem support - but he has also gotten a lot of Rep support - veterans & fiscal hawks in particular (when you get 87% of the vote in a senate race, you are pulling from all parties). So - if anyone bothered to look at the ones who voted for Trump, I believe you will find that they were mostly Reps who'd crossed over to support Bernie & when Bernie lost, they simply went back. Saying that all of the ones who voted for Trump were PO'd Dems is pure BS.

    But - that's water over the dam. What's the DNC done for you lately? Are they supporting primary winners equally? Are they still picking favorites? Are they putting out a message that will resonate? Dem's the issues (pun intended) - not what they did a few years ago.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    The problem seems to be how and why so many are convinced that Clinton was a poor candidate.
    Does anyone trying to tell us this actually know her? No, they just repeating the talking heads.
    Absolute proof that propaganda works.
    Clinton was likely the most competent candidate in our lifetime.

  23. #233
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    twodot,

    I think you're wrong about that. From what I can tell, that's exactly what those here posting about "Berniacs" and "moaning about 2016" are arguing. That we have to just hold our nose and vote for whatever candidate the Democrats offer in 2020. And anyone who doesn't is stupid, or a traitor, or both. Other than you, no one else has even responded to my argument--they just rage on about things that I haven't even been saying.

    Thanks, by the way, for engaging in actual discussion. I appreciate your perspective.

    Tom
    Stupid, Traitor . . . how about lazy, entitled, childish and prone to tantrums?

    AHA! Now it becomes clear how Trump won!

    The progressive cause has been failing for years because the progressives in this country are lazy, that's because they feel entitled to a progressive government. This sense of entitlement is built upon the backs of the millions of

    people who risked their lives to get the Civil Rights Act passed, among other milestones.

    Since the sixties, we have felt as though 'we won, we don't have to worry about that anymore'.

    BULLSPIT!

    The forces of White Male Supremacy/Totalitarian Oligarchy are alive and well and grinding you into the dirt.

    This is an elemental evil, and will not be bound by laws without vigorous enforcement and eternal vigilance.

    Throwing a tantrum and refusing to vote against them because you were not presented with 'the right candidate' is simply stupid. What did you think would happen? Did you think that somehow, magically there would be a do-over?

    Now, the WMS/TO is set to grind up the Constitution itself, and turn you into a serf of one of the corporate fiefdoms.

    We are now effectively worse off than we were in 1960, when I was born into this world.

    At that time, the US Government was populated with men who, if they were not genuine statesmen, at least understood that their electorate would punish them for governing for their own benefit, and that colluding with Russia would get them summarily executed.

    People like you have squandered that slim advantage, after having made substantial gains.

    Truly pathetic.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    The problem seems to be how and why so many are convinced that Clinton was a poor candidate.
    Does anyone trying to tell us this actually know her? No, they just repeating the talking heads.
    Absolute proof that propaganda works.
    Clinton was likely the most competent candidate in our lifetime.
    She was absolutely the most competent candidate (more so than Bernie) - but Bannon & Reps in congress had done too good a job of destroying her reputation. 90+% of their stuff was BS - but it stuck with the public.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    So then, stupid rules the day.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    The "Bernie voters switched to Trump" meme really misses a huge point.

    Historically Bernie has gotten a lot of Dem support - but he has also gotten a lot of Rep support - veterans & fiscal hawks in particular (when you get 87% of the vote in a senate race, you are pulling from all parties). So - if anyone bothered to look at the ones who voted for Trump, I believe you will find that they were mostly Reps who'd crossed over to support Bernie & when Bernie lost, they simply went back. Saying that all of the ones who voted for Trump were PO'd Dems is pure BS.

    But - that's water over the dam. What's the DNC done for you lately? Are they supporting primary winners equally? Are they still picking favorites? Are they putting out a message that will resonate? Dem's the issues (pun intended) - not what they did a few years ago.

    Overlooking the presence of the forest, due to attending to the trees.

    What the DNC has done for you lately is to remain non-criminal.

    That's the thing.

    The situation we need to be aware of is that the Criminal Party is busily drowning your government in a bathtub, just as has been their overtly-stated goal for decades.

    They are criminals.

    The Democratic Party is NOT criminal, therefore they are the only sane choice. However they serve up their slate of candidates, they are the only party going that isn't serving up Cyanide.

    The progressives will never recover the power they enjoyed in the 60s/70s by complaining about the DNC.

    We must co-opt the DNC.

    It's that, or eat the Cyanide.




    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    The problem seems to be how and why so many are convinced that Clinton was a poor candidate.
    Does anyone trying to tell us this actually know her? No, they just repeating the talking heads.
    Absolute proof that propaganda works.
    Clinton was likely the most competent candidate in our lifetime.
    And absolute propaganda works absolutely.
    Rattling the teacups.

  27. #237
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Seeing the circle jerk happening here, I think Dems will loose this one as well, because they attack each other and weaken the whole.

    "Snatch defeat from the jaws of victory" New Democrat Party slogan.

    Liberals are divided in 10 directions, stupid is all the same
    PaulF

  28. #238
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Which is why "stupid" rules the day

  29. #239
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Yeah. Very passionate bunch - and we're supposed to be on the same 'team' IE, interested in a similar course. McMike and Oz, I can see - very passionate, though that very passion seemingly has invigorated an equal push back. Both have valid points, as does Tom- but still talking past each other.

    Appeal to the Progressive branch, listen - absolutely. BUT - it still comes down to a spectrum of folks, all with different perspectives, voting for who they believe is the 'best' candidate. And here's the hole-shot - if, when the Party has selected their candidate, do not agree with that selection, you have a very important choice to make. Do you vote for 'the best', if imperfect candidate? Or do you stay home, or make a 'protest' vote, thereby giving the govt., and the country, to the likes of Trump and our current Republican band of thugs?

    I don't know if you realize how much damage this last election has done to this country - for our lifetimes, and likely for a large part of our kids/grandkids. It's time to put aside the 'perfect', and recognize that 'pretty damned good' is a helluva lot better than OMG! But continue pursuing 'perfect', going forward.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  30. #240
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Think how different things might be right now if the DNC and Clinton Inc weren't allowed to get away with conspiring against Bernie?

    Look who was drawing the new voters, enthusiasm and big crowds on the democratic side!

    The people themselves were talking loud and clear, yet the establishment elected to go with a 'coronation' instead of a fair contest.





    .
    Last edited by Rick-Mi; 10-11-2018 at 03:11 PM.

  31. #241
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    The problem is that until Bernie Sanders, a non-Democrat, tossed his hat in the Democratic Party's ring, it was pretty much a 1-candidate race.

    The powers that be in the Democratic Party put their thumb on the scales and ... [snark]highly encouraged[/snark] ... candidates other than HRC to not run.

    It wasn't an honest race. Bernie Sanders didn't do as well as he did because he was a great candidate. He did as well as he did because he was the only real alternative in the primaries.

    And oddly, lots of people were a little grumpy and nonplussed that their choices had been ... curtailed ... because the DNC had decided ahead of time who the candidate should be. And they voted with their feet.

    This is a real problem with our 2-party electoral system where party affiliation comes into play for ballot eligibility. Instead of primaries, we need a proper run-off election -- top 2 vote getters, regardless of party affiliation advance to the general election.

    The party can run zero, one, or more candidates in the primary... but the top 2 go to the finals.
    There's always a 'primary' that happens before the primary, in which donors and influential pols line up and people who would like there support either get it, or don't, and decide whether to run. Clinton tried to do that in 2008 as well, but Obama beat her as an insurgent candidate. No matter who had their thumbs on the scales, Obama had the votes. Bernie tried to do the same in 2016, and more power to him, I'd certainly have voted for him if he'd won the nomination. Yes, the cards were stacked against him, just as they were stacked against Obama in 2008. Insurgent candidates, by definition, have the cards stacked against them. Trump overcame that in the Republican primaries, and the establishment went to far greater lengths to defeat him. Bernie wasn't able to do that for a couple of reasons. One was that he was never able to expand sufficiently from his largely white base of supporters. Another is that the Democrats, warts and all, haven't been pulling a bait and switch on their supporters the way the Republicans have since Nixon. Not that Democrats are perfect by any means, but they haven't been using the culture wars to get people to vote against their interest the way Republicans have.

    I disagree with you about Bernie as a candidate, I think he was a great one. Martin O'Malley and Lincoln Chafee were not obviously worse positioned at the start of the primaries, but Bernie stood out as a candidate. That's why he did so much better than they did. He was a more compelling speaker, he had a better platform, he was more inspiring. He certainly wasn't just a warm body who wasn't Clinton. Give the man some credit, he did as well as he did because he was as good as he was.

    Now, as long as we have a two-party system that allows people to win with a plurality, the elections will come down to two people. It's a shame Bernie wasn't one of those people, but he wasn't.

    Had he been the candidate and lost, how would you feel about a thread that said, "Democrats will never get redemption until they admit that Bernie Sanders was a huge mistake and a horrible candidate" ? Personally, I'd think Hillary's supporters were bemoaning 2016 instead of working toward a better outcome next time, and exacerbating conflicts instead of working for the defeat of people neither Hillary nor Bernie would have wanted to see in office.

    Condemning the last person your ran for president doesn't help elect the next person you will run for president.

  32. #242
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    So then, stupid rules the day.
    Exactly what is "stupid" about believing the Dem party should be inclusive? I'm may not be the brightest bulb on the porch, but expanding the party sounds better than telling people (in so many words or by actions) they're not wanted.

    @ a later post: "Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" has been used to describe the Dems for many years.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  33. #243
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick-Mi View Post
    Think how different things might be right now if the DNC and Clinton Inc weren't allowed to get away with conspiring against Bernie?

    Look who was drawing the new voters, enthusiasm and big crowds on the democratic side!

    The people themselves were talking loud and clear, yet the establishment elected to go with a 'coronation' instead of a fair contest.

    And this, folks, is how detractors/trolls/troublemakers screw up a party - by appearing to support a position (in an opposition party) while doing what they can to sow discord. You're a stinker, Rick. And I'm being kind.






    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Exactly what is "stupid" about believing the Dem party should be inclusive? I'm may not be the brightest bulb on the porch, but expanding the party sounds better than telling people (in so many words or by actions) they're not wanted.

    @ a later post: "Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" has been used to describe the Dems for many years.
    More discord; though I wouldn't compare you to Rick. Not sure how you do 'inclusive', as you see it, other than offering candidates with their various positions, choose among them (the best you can get, as an entire party), and then campaign for those issues you want, of whoever wins the nomination. Voting for Trump, to show your displeasure, gets you less than nothing.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  34. #244
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    This:

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Before you all start whining about "Berniacs" again, please understand I am making absolutely no argument here about 2016.
    Directly contradicts this:
    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I am simply pointing out the Sanders clearly was onto something that appeals to young voters. You know, the future of the party (potentially). But instead of the party saying "Wow, what he was doing that we could pick up on?" they essentially start raging if anyone brings this up. Yes, oznabrag, I'm talking about you. Less rage, more thought, might be a more productive approach. But even among the more moderate responses here, there is a real defensiveness, a "vote for any Democrat or else" mentality that cannot tolerate being questioned. The same mentality that failed so spectacularly last time.
    ...which is also untrue. Sanders had an outsized influence on the platform, precisely because the party was trying to do what you suggest, and because Clinton was trying to pick up his supporters. As to what the party is willing to offer Sanders' supporters in 2020, that's not really up to the party, is it? It's up to the candidates, who will offer up themselves, their policies, and their narrative of why people should vote for them.

    No one on this thread has argued against appealing to young people or supporting more progressive policies. Take another look at the OP. The argument is about whether the Democrats can never get redemption until they condemn Hillary Clinton as a horrible candidate. With most of what you've said on this thread, you haven't even disagreed with the people you think you're arguing with.

    The exception is that you, Sky Blue, and McMike all seem to think the Democratic Party is offering nothing but "at least we're not Trump." That shows a remarkable lack of awareness of what Democrats are actually running on. Clinton never could turn the narrative of the campaign to her actual platform, because it kept being about her stolen emails, but she plenty of things she stood for.

    Here's what she stood for:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi...illary_Clinton

    Please tell me which items to take issue with.

  35. #245
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    More discord; though I wouldn't compare you to Rick. Not sure how you do 'inclusive', as you see it, other than offering candidates with their various positions, choose among them (the best you can get, as an entire party), and then campaign for those issues you want, of whoever wins the nomination. Voting for Trump, to show your displeasure, gets you less than nothing.
    The DNC should not favor candidates. Let them go through the primaries on their own, then back the winner. That's not rocket science is it?

    Of course anyone who voted for Trump is a complete moron!
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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