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Thread: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

  1. #176
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    The perfect is the enemy of the good.
    I've been doing various bits of political organizing since high school... and this remains one of our most challenging truisms.

    I'd modify the comment above that idealism leads to bitterness in old age. Only if one fails to learn, adjust, and temper one's rigidity about ideological perfection.
    Last edited by David G; 10-09-2018 at 09:56 AM.
    David G
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  2. #177
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    I voted for the best, most qualified presidential candidate. The election’s result is the responsibility of those who did not do so.
    As did I & I agree with this 100%. However, what factors caused people to not do this? That's what I & others have been commenting on.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  3. #178
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    I voted for the best, most qualified presidential candidate. The election’s result is the responsibility of those who did not do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    As did I & I agree with this 100%. However, what factors caused people to not do this? That's what I & others have been commenting on.
    I am sure that many people voted for other reasons.

    I personally vote for people who share my values. Neither party seems to do so.
    Life is complex.

  4. #179
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    All I care about is next month's election. That's the thing to concentrate on, not 2016.

    Jeff C
    Once again...

    Jeff C

  5. #180
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I worry that mainstream Democrats now seem intent on alienating progressives rather than reaching out to them. But they already know that, given a candidate they don't feel represents them, some progressives and independents will stay home, or (worse) even vote for another Trump. Scolding people for sincere beliefs and values, I can assure you, will NOT bring them back into the fold.
    To progressives and moderates alike: what's more important than stopping Trump, and what he represents? The ship is sinking. Priorities.
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  6. #181
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post


    Which I read as a claim that voters selected Clinton BECAUSE she got more votes. Which makes no sense.
    Gee Willikers!

    I think you should re-read that assertion several times until you understand what a non-sensical pile of mush it is!'

    WOW!!!


    What part of 'The voters selected Clinton because they selected Clinton' makes no sense?
    Rattling the teacups.

  7. #182
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Again, the base will vote for ANY Democrat. Progressives and independents will not, as seen in 2016.

    The implication is stunningly clear. If you want unity, it's the mainstream Democrats who need to compromise. Embrace the future. Pick a candidate who appeals to the young.
    It seems to me that progressives should be part of the base. As you yourself voted for Clinton because you sure didn't want Trump.

    The people who need to be convinced are the ones between the two bases, no?

    Best,
    Chris
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  8. #183
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    David G
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  9. #184
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Gee Willikers!

    I think you should re-read that assertion several times until you understand what a non-sensical pile of mush it is!'

    WOW!!!


    What part of 'The voters selected Clinton because they selected Clinton' makes no sense?
    What are you even saying here?

    Tom
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  10. #185
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by CPF View Post
    It seems to me that progressives should be part of the base.
    Why? When's the last time the Democratic party ran a progressive candidate in a national election?

    It's this exact assumption--"Of course progressives are a part of our base"--that has got the Democratic party in trouble. 12% of voters who identify as Democrats or "lean" Democratic voted for Trump. That's 12% they were assuming they had, but didn't.

    If the Democrats want progressives to join them, they have to actually begin to offer them some representation. If the only choice they offer is "Vote for the lesser of two evils," that doesn't work so well. As in, Trump is President. Q.E.D. And it won't get young people to vote, either. It's a position that's demographically unsustainable, just like Republicans being hostile to non-white people who will soon be the majority.

    Tom
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  11. #186
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    What are you even saying here?

    Tom
    Which I read as a claim that voters selected Clinton BECAUSE she got more votes. Which makes no sense.
    I'm saying that Clinton got more votes, therefore the voters selected Clinton.

    Somehow you twist the incontrovertible FACT that Clinton got more votes into some sort of evidence that Clinton didn't get more votes.

    You really should snap to the fact that this is what we call electoral politics.

    Clinton got more votes, therefore she became the candidate.

    It really is that simple.
    Rattling the teacups.

  12. #187
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    To progressives and moderates alike: what's more important than stopping Trump, and what he represents? The ship is sinking. Priorities.
    That's why I'm suggesting throwing away the colander they used in 2016 and bailing with a bucket instead.

    Tom
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  13. #188
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    I'm saying that Clinton got more votes, therefore the voters selected Clinton.
    Nonsense. Yes, Clinton got more votes. The fact that she got more votes is not WHY she got more votes, as your "therefore" implies. People did not vote for her BECAUSE she got more votes. It's the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Somehow you twist the incontrovertible FACT that Clinton got more votes into some sort of evidence that Clinton didn't get more votes.
    Now you're just making stuff up, or complete failing to understand basic English. Of course she got more votes. I never said she didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    You really should snap to the fact that this is what we call electoral politics.
    Except nothing about it is a "fact." It's your subjective interpretation of how we should do politics. You're embracing the rules that Republicans live by--win for the party at all costs. I'm not.

    Tom
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  14. #189
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    ...scolding progressives...basically treating them like naughty children...condescend and scold progressives...


    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Hyperbole.
    Not to progressives. To them, it's reality. It doesn't matter what moderate Democrats think about it. Progressive voters won't be making decisions based on what moderate voters think.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Obama was a once-in-a-generation candidate. And he was a moderate.
    Debatable:

    I think he campaigned as a progressive (Yes we can!)--at least the first time around--but governed as a moderate. And in so doing, disappointed a lot of the people who voted for him to some degree.

    Tom
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  15. #190
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Nonsense. Yes, Clinton got more votes. The fact that she got more votes is not WHY she got more votes, as your "therefore" implies. People did not vote for her BECAUSE she got more votes. It's the other way around.


    OK. Either way around, she got more votes.

    That's what we call 'electoral politics'.

    You should look it up sometime when you have a little time to kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Now you're just making stuff up, or complete failing to understand basic English. Of course she got more votes. I never said she didn't.


    Then what's the rumpus?

    Are you saying we should abandon democracy because Bernie was such a poor candidate?

    I mean, Jeeze Louise, he couldn't even beat Clinton!

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Except nothing about it is a "fact." It's your subjective interpretation of how we should do politics. You're embracing the rules that Republicans live by--win for the party at all costs. I'm not.

    Tom
    Uhhhh, no.

    A cold-hearted, completely objective analysis of the facts of the matter would reveal to you that Clinton won the nomination because she got more votes.

    You seem incapable of such an analysis.

    Shall I call you a waaahmbulance?

    The people who abandoned the Democratic Party candidate and voted for Trump because they got their widdle feewings hurt are nothing more than lazy, irresponsible morons.
    Rattling the teacups.

  16. #191
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Wow. Oz - you are so misinterpreting most everything - I'm shocked.

    What's being suggested is NOT that progressives take over the party or that Bernie got more votes or really even anything about 2016.

    What IS being said is that the Dem party needs to open the umbrella wider & support progressives as well as moderates. There are races other than the presidential one - from Senate all the way to local dog catcher. There's no room for a progressive in there anywhere?

    You & some others here are showing exactly what is wrong with today's Dem party - if you ain't middle of the road, we don't want to know nuthin' about you.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  17. #192
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Wow. Oz - you are so misinterpreting most everything - I'm shocked.

    What's being suggested is NOT that progressives take over the party or that Bernie got more votes or really even anything about 2016.

    What IS being said is that the Dem party needs to open the umbrella wider & support progressives as well as moderates. There are races other than the presidential one - from Senate all the way to local dog catcher. There's no room for a progressive in there anywhere?

    You & some others here are showing exactly what is wrong with today's Dem party - if you ain't middle of the road, we don't want to know nuthin' about you.




    Personally, I think the Democratic Party should simply own the fact that they have become the right-of-center stalwart party, just as the Republican Party of old.

    That way, when the 'Republican' Party gets swallowed up in the Maw of Satan, we can form a decent left-of-center party, and get on about our lives.



    That said, I would like it VERY MUCH if the Berniacs would quit whining.


    Hillary Clinton GOT MORE VOTES THAN BERNIE.

    They can dance and moan and whine and blame the DNC for Trump; they can pretend Santa Claus will bring them another O'Bama; they can wheedle and stamp their little feet and hold their breaths until they turn blue and pass out, but HILLARY GOT MORE VOTES THAN BERNIE.

    That is electoral politics.

    If we progressives want a louder voice in US electoral politics, then we need to get up off our lazy, entitled, apathetic keesters and elect Democrats for the simple reason that 'Republicans' are criminals.

    The wretched, 'disaffected' morons who defected to Trump in 2016 are in effect accomplices to treason.

    At one time the Democratic Party was actually left-of-center, believe it or not. Progressives need to understand that the reason the Ds have moved rightward these 40 years and more is that the 'progressive' element ALLOWED IT TO DO SO.

    It's like getting fat. You put on a pound a month, and within 5 years you're a total slob.

    Turning the Democratic Party back onto the right path is like losing that 60 pounds.

    You DON'T go home and blow your brains out, you start to eat less and exercise more.



    You DON'T throw a childish tantrum and vote for Trump, you vote for Hillary and then hold her feet to the fire.

    Personally, I am sick unto death of being cast as some sort of 'conservative' because I can not tolerate the sort of childish, self-involved twaddle that the Berniacs use to destroy any chance we may have of getting rid of the greed-driven, racist, misogynist, white-male-supremacist monster the so-called 'Republican' Party has become.
    Rattling the teacups.

  18. #193
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Just heard on the radio that Michael Bloomberg just re-registered as a democrat.

    So, much for our dear leaders comment that democrats want to turn the country into Valenzuela.
    Tom

    "Leave the gun, take the cannolis"

  19. #194
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    John,

    I may be a bit slow on the uptake and probably misunderstood your point. I think this comment got stuck in my head:



    Which I read as a claim that voters selected Clinton BECAUSE she got more votes. Which makes no sense. But on re-reading, it seems like you are saying, it is the party DELEGATES who selected her because she got more votes. Which I completely agree with. The delegates did the right thing, going with the popular vote in favor of Clinton. So I think we are in agreement there?
    Of course your straw man argument makes no sense. That's why no one ever made it. However, I see that you are still pretending someone has made that argument on page 7 of this thread, so apparently you still find the straw man too useful to abandon. In so doing, you are not using discourse to discover truth, you are using it to comfort yourself that you need not answer the points your interlocutors are actually making, therefore can continue to regard them as poo-heads.

    I have no idea what "voters selected Clinton BECAUSE she got more votes" would mean, unless it means she got more delegate votes because she got more support in the primaries and caucuses, which is the clear meaning of what I and Oz have said on this thread. If you agree with that, what's with all the sound an fury of claiming we are wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Perhaps my comments about strategy for 2020 are getting mixed up in the heated rhetoric in this thread. I am not "blaming" anyone. 2016 is over. I am suggesting that, since we tried a moderate candidate and it failed spectacularly, it makes more sense to embrace a progressive candidate and progressive platform for 2020. Repeating a failed strategy makes little sense.

    There has been some notable success among Democratic Socialist candidates at state and local levels, as I posted earlier. Yet the party is wary of following up. Why? As you have said repeatedly, you will vote for ANY Democrat. I myself DID vote for Clinton, despite my strong preference for Sanders, and my belief that primary voters had chosen the weaker candidate. So the party could run a progressive candidate, not lose their base, and pick up millions of young voters.

    That's my point on this thread. My only point.

    But instead of doing that, I see Democrats here doubling down on the failed strategy, and scolding progressives (who already have reason to mistrust the party, not just for their treatment of Sanders, but for the lip service they pay to progressive ideals), basically treating them like naughty children and blaming their own loss on them. See David G's meme for an example.

    I worry that mainstream Democrats now seem intent on alienating progressives rather than reaching out to them. But they already know that, given a candidate they don't feel represents them, some progressives and independents will stay home, or (worse) even vote for another Trump. Scolding people for sincere beliefs and values, I can assure you, will NOT bring them back into the fold.

    Do enough to condescend and scold progressives, and they may start a third party. Some of them, rightly or wrongly, will feel there is nothing to lose if the current party makes it clear they are not welcome, and their views not represented. By definition, progressives tend toward more extreme positions than centrists and moderates. Expecting the more extreme branch to do the necessary compromising for unity seems misguided if not downright silly.

    Again, the base will vote for ANY Democrat. Progressives and independents will not, as seen in 2016.

    The implication is stunningly clear. If you want unity, it's the mainstream Democrats who need to compromise. Embrace the future. Pick a candidate who appeals to the young.

    I'd be interested in your response to these ideas, if we can both set aside questions of blame and address pragmatic stategic issues.

    Tom
    Do enough to scold and condescend to Democrats, and they will conclude you are not interested in defeating Trump. Most of the time, third party candidates do nothing but split the opposition vote and guarantee victory for people like Gov. LePage, who would be quite incapable of winning a majority on his own.

    Look, 2020 will not be a repeat of 2016. Emphasizing the discord of 2016 will not ensure success in 2020. This thread started with the resentment Berniacs feel against the Democratic Party, and it doesn't seem to have moved past it. If you want to see a more progressive candidate in 2020, the way forward is not re-litigating 2016. Nor is scolding people who would have been happy to vote for Bernie if he'd gained enough support in the primaries and caucuses to be the nominee.

    And if progressives won't vote for the most progressive candidate who has a chance of winning, they'll have to live with the fact that they will get someone like Trump as a consequence. As previously stated, I'd have been glad to vote for Bernie, I'd be delighted to vote for Warren, but if they don't make it, I'll vote for the best candidate who has a shot at winning. To do otherwise would be a dereliction of my duty as a citizen.

    As you've noted, progressives have had substantial success this year under the Democratic banner. Obviously, the party is happy to have such candidates if they can get enough support. But if they are to be a big-tent party, they are going to have to give other candidates a shot as well, and if those candidates get the most support in the primaries, they shouldn't jerk the rug out because they aren't progressive enough. Yet that seems to be what some of Bernie's supporters think should have happened in 2016, and because it didn't happen, we continue to get threads like this one, where they blame the Democrats for not picking the more progressive candidate, rather than the one who gained the most support in the primaries and caucuses. Is that what you mean by compromise? Because frankly, it looks like Bernie had a pretty good shot at the nomination, progressive values, not being a registered Democrat, and all, he just didn't win. He was an insurgent candidate. Insurgent candidates, by definition, are those who don't rely on the party, and if they can win without that, more power to them.

    Maybe we should have a better process for selecting candidates. Maybe we should have a better voting system than first-past-the-post. But we have the process we have, and it looks to me like the Democratic Party gives progressives their best chance of gaining power within that process. Given that this is the case, what precisely are you expecting of the Democrats? That they become the far-left party the Republicans claim they are, and abandon the big-tent approach that includes moderates?

  20. #195
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Nonsense. Yes, Clinton got more votes. The fact that she got more votes is not WHY she got more votes, as your "therefore" implies. People did not vote for her BECAUSE she got more votes. It's the other way around.
    This paragraph should be taken out and shot. It makes no sense.

  21. #196
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    That paragraph confused the hell out of me as well. It still confuses the hell out of me.
    War is peace.
    Freedom is slavery.
    Ignorance is strength.
    Trump is doing beautifully.





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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Good sir! We are a civilized country! We do not line up and shoot paragraphs which are clearly stark, raving mad!
    You must be thinking of Canada.

  23. #198
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Now THAT is "so much winning".

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Well, OK, let's waterboard it first though, it might give up some useful intel.
    .

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    That said, I would like it VERY MUCH if the Berniacs would quit whining.


    Hillary Clinton GOT MORE VOTES THAN BERNIE.
    Again, Good For You. She lost, to Trump. I was right and you were wrong. You're still wrong. This thread wasn't about me initially, it was about all of the votes that were lost when the DNC decided to ordain Clinton. The effing hubris, and you're still carrying it on. You want votes? . . . the DNC had better understand, very carefully, my opinion in the OP. They want to lose again, keep it up, keep up acting like you and Two'y and Keith. Keep acting like the folks that will vote Democrat are so simple, so single minded, like most Republican voters, that they will swallow any line spoken to get a vote. They won't. It would be great if everybody would understand that the only way to beat Trump is to unify . . . but thinks just ain't that bad yet, they have to be won over. You wanna talk about the politics of fear? You guys spend a lot of time telling me why I should fear Trump, but very little time coming up with solutions other than telling me to do as I'm told for my own good.

    I gotta say, this thread as done more damage to my perception of the Democratic party than HC could have ever done. You guys think you've got all the answers, so much so, that you will lose it again in 2020. Effing stupid.

    SHE LOST!!!!!! I was right and you were wrong. Yet you and others here keep up the condescending BS. Guess what; that's how we lose again.

    Cheese and rice, how many times can Tom say it differently? You cant even hear a smart guy with his sh17 together without trying to make him look stupid. It's embarrassing to watch . . .
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Again, Good For You. She lost, to Trump. I was right and you were wrong. You're still wrong. This thread wasn't about me initially, it was about all of the votes that were lost when the DNC decided to ordain Clinton. The effing hubris, and you're still carrying it on. You want votes? . . . the DNC had better understand, very carefully, my opinion in the OP. They want to lose again, keep it up, keep up acting like you and Two'y and Keith. Keep acting like the folks that will vote Democrat are so simple, so single minded, like most Republican voters, that they will swallow any line spoken to get a vote. They won't. It would be great if everybody would understand that the only way to beat Trump is to unify . . . but thinks just ain't that bad yet, they have to be won over. You wanna talk about the politics of fear? You guys spend a lot of time telling me why I should fear Trump, but very little time coming up with solutions other than telling me to do as I'm told for my own good.

    I gotta say, this thread as done more damage to my perception of the Democratic party than HC could have ever done. You guys think you've got all the answers, so much so, that you will lose it again in 2020. Effing stupid.

    SHE LOST!!!!!! I was right and you were wrong. Yet you and others here keep up the condescending BS. Guess what; that's how we lose again.

    Cheese and rice, how many times can Tom say it differently? You cant even hear a smart guy with his sh17 together without trying to make him look stupid. It's embarrassing to watch . . .
    Yeah.

    She lost to Trump, but not before Bernie lost TO HER.

    Yeah. Unify.

    12% of Berniacs voted Trump.

    Some 'unify'.

    Pathetic.

    I still don't get how you figure you were 'right'.

    What the childish, entitled, self-important, so-called 'progressive left' should grasp is that they needed to elect Hillary, because that way they had some power, then work on that power. Hold her feet to the fire.

    Honestly, you people whine and carry on like baby boomers with your delusional notions that you DESERVE a 'progressive' candidate/office holder.

    NEWSFLASH, SPORT!!!

    YOU GOTTA GET SOMEONE ELECTED BEFORE YOU HAVE ANY POLITICAL POWER AT ALL.

    WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND THAT CRYSTAL CLEAR PIECE OF REALITY AND GET BACK TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Also, you are dead wrong.

    'How we lose again' involves a bunch of whiners sitting home on election day waiting for a waaaaahmbulance because the DNC isn't running Antti Rinne.

    G R O W . U P.

    You have three choices. Democrat, Criminal or Apathetic.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    ……………and 40% of those with the right to vote either do not care what sort of regime is in place, or have been disenfranchised by the crooked activities of at least one of the parties. For that reason alone any electoral comparison is really about two pressure groups. If perchance the 40% decided the someone other than the usual two should get the job then they'd both be out on a limb, and I'd bet that they'd be in coalition as quick as a flash, ideology and ethics abandoned in favour of power.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Again, Good For You. She lost, to Trump. I was right and you were wrong. You're still wrong. This thread wasn't about me initially, it was about all of the votes that were lost when the DNC decided to ordain Clinton. The effing hubris, and you're still carrying it on. You want votes? . . . the DNC had better understand, very carefully, my opinion in the OP. They want to lose again, keep it up, keep up acting like you and Two'y and Keith. Keep acting like the folks that will vote Democrat are so simple, so single minded, like most Republican voters, that they will swallow any line spoken to get a vote. They won't. It would be great if everybody would understand that the only way to beat Trump is to unify . . . but thinks just ain't that bad yet, they have to be won over. You wanna talk about the politics of fear? You guys spend a lot of time telling me why I should fear Trump, but very little time coming up with solutions other than telling me to do as I'm told for my own good.

    I gotta say, this thread as done more damage to my perception of the Democratic party than HC could have ever done. You guys think you've got all the answers, so much so, that you will lose it again in 2020. Effing stupid.

    SHE LOST!!!!!! I was right and you were wrong. Yet you and others here keep up the condescending BS. Guess what; that's how we lose again.

    Cheese and rice, how many times can Tom say it differently? You cant even hear a smart guy with his sh17 together without trying to make him look stupid. It's embarrassing to watch . . .
    Well, that certainly unified the opposition against Trump.

    Keep bemoaning what happened in 2016 and blaming the people who mostly agree with you, that ought to help. Attack the enemy of your enemy enough times, and victory is assured. Keep telling the people who would like to be your allies that you were right and they were wrong, that will show that you've got all the answers and will surely improve their perceptions of you. Keep telling them that Hillary lost, they can't possibly realize that, and that proves they should have broken all the rules about how nominees are selected and given Bernie a nomination he hadn't earned by getting the votes.

    Oh, and call them effing stupid, that's really persuasive.

  29. #204
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Well, that certainly unified the opposition against Trump.

    Keep bemoaning what happened in 2016 and blaming the people who mostly agree with you, that ought to help. Attack the enemy of your enemy enough times, and victory is assured. Keep telling the people who would like to be your allies that you were right and they were wrong, that will show that you've got all the answers and will surely improve their perceptions of you. Keep telling them that Hillary lost, they can't possibly realize that, and that proves they should have broken all the rules about how nominees are selected and given Bernie a nomination he hadn't earned by getting the votes.

    Oh, and call them effing stupid, that's really persuasive.
    Exactly. There's an election next month. It is what matters right now.

    Jeff C

  30. #205
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Following with bemusement. Not sure why this angry diatribe, Mike. You’re off the rails- but recognize one truth. The republicans coalesced begin Trump- they held their nose, and voted enblock. The Democrats did not- and some were so pi$$ed off they stayed home or voted Trump. A hissy fit. Shot themselves in the foot- and the rest of us in the back. I’d have voted for anyone- anyone! Else over Trump. Gotta keep your eye on the goal.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  31. #206
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Purge your Uniparty scum and you'll do much better.

    Dialing back the hate a notch or two couldn't hurt, either.

    So much hate!

  32. #207
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    It's amazing that it took the Kavanaugh confirmation to finally ring home the true powerlessness of the Democrats. We're two years down the road and the 2016 post-mortem only now gets underway. Amazing.

    It is a rudderless, leaderless party that is so angrily racialized it cannot coherently articulate any imperatives other than the politics of identity and hatred for Trump.

    Kavanaugh's succession to the bench ends 50 years of strategic liberalism on the SCOTUS, securing it for constitutionalism for decades. As far as any of us is concerned, it may as well be forever. It is a victory for the ages and Trump will quite rightly get the historical credit for it. None of it would be happening without him.

  33. #208
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Most if not all of us are going to pass into that good night under the aegis of a SCOTUS with a cemented conservative majority. Redeem that.

  34. #209
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    It is interesting to see such emotional over-reactions to what essentially is a strategic argument for 2020.

    1. Run a candidate who will appeal to young voters. What would such a candidate look like? Well, there's this:

    In the 2016 campaign, Sanders won more votes among those under age 30 than the two presumptive major-party presidential nominees combined. And it wasn't close.
    SOURCE

    Before you all start whining about "Berniacs" again, please understand I am making absolutely no argument here about 2016. I am simply pointing out the Sanders clearly was onto something that appeals to young voters. You know, the future of the party (potentially). But instead of the party saying "Wow, what he was doing that we could pick up on?" they essentially start raging if anyone brings this up. Yes, oznabrag, I'm talking about you. Less rage, more thought, might be a more productive approach. But even among the more moderate responses here, there is a real defensiveness, a "vote for any Democrat or else" mentality that cannot tolerate being questioned. The same mentality that failed so spectacularly last time.

    It's also a mentality that couldn't do a better job of angering and alienating progressive voters than if it were designed for that exact purpose.

    Then there's this:

    In a panel discussion following the presentation, Jane Coaston, a political reporter for MTV Networks, offered that the parties should rethink how they appeal to key constituencies and build political party membership. She noted that a more ground-up approach to party organization would allow voters to convey to the parties the issues they care about, rather than the current strategy: assuming voters will inherently prioritize party identification at the ballot box.
    SOURCE

    This is pretty much what Garrett and I (and I think McMike) have been arguing. We tried the "assume voters will prioritize party identification" strategy in 2016. Trump is now President. The party ought to be asking young people what their issues are, and adjusting the platform and candidates to reflect at least some of that.

    Instead of running on "At least we're not Trump!"--a truly uninspiring position--the party should lay out a specific platform that embraces at least some progressive ideals. Build an identity. One that will appeal to the people who didn't vote D last time--the "Berniacs" who are being scolded and trashed so thoroughly here. Please understand, I am not advocating Sanders as the 2020 candidate. I'm saying, we need the people who wanted him. What are we willing to offer them?

    As for the rest, heated rhetoric and emotional reactions are pretty much destroying this thread. And I'm not talking about McMike.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  35. #210
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    I'll add that I've been very happy to see the ground-up approach taking hold in the Wisconsin state level Democratic party. They have started to invite people to establish local advisory boards to give feedback to the party on what issues matter, and what they'd like to see in a candidate. I've been involved in that process a little bit, and want to do more. In my opinion, they are on the right track. They are asking voters "How would you like us to represent you?"

    They are NOT scolding voters with a "Vote for whatever Democrat we choose to offer you" line of BS the way many posters on this thread are.

    There's no reason that similar things could not be done for the national party as well.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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